Good MSU links

[Marchosias]

@ Swordmaster and Clockwork:
Thak you for your kind words. But do not worry, I rather used the term "stupid" as an abbreviation for "not commonly used and with some serious drawbacks".
I think the ASF death hag would be quite difficult to use. You would need not only to get the executioners to position for a good flank charge, but to send the bsb to them at the same time. The threat of execs attacking at initiative order is quite obvious and the opponent is always going to have at least one turn to respond. And I am not sure if the death hag helps other units enough to justify her inclusion. Elves have a high initiative, they strike before the foe most of the time anyway, so she would only bring a reroll from the second round of combat onwards. While the MSU strategy wants to avoid prolonged fights if possible.
But I would definitely try her out just for fun, if my army would consist of more than the current 22 models.

[Setomidor]

Sometimes even frontal charge will do enough damage so that attacks back are not going to be that problematic. Charge the knights and 2 hydras/chariots, especially on the narrow frontage and you will see how much will be left. You can add cauldron blessing to that too.

I did that to 40 khorne marauders with 2 units of Dragon Princes, one to the front, one to the flank. No reform, took me 2 rounds to break them. I did that to 40 executioners, I had 19 Swordmasters, 2 rounds fight front to front. I also surrounded units of chaos warriors with 3 of mine so when I hit them there were very few of them left and they had a single rank to step up.

How on earth did you manage to front 40 Executioners with 19 Swordmasters and walk away? 30 attacks, hitting 22.5, wounding 18.5. 21.5 attacks back killing 13.5. He's steadfast, and next turn you should only kill another 6.5 before being wiped out (leaving 15 standing).

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Setomidor,

First, I have an impression you think it was a single unit. I had 2, 10+9, formed 6 wide, each with a champion. Second, it just shows that averages is one thing and rolling dice is another. I don't think it was anything way off from averages though. Bear in mind I had 3+1 swordmasters standing after the combat. If you want to know more, here is the report:

Battle 06 - 2400 vs. Dark Elves

Cheers!

[Killerk]

Well the report is actually on the previous page

[Katon]

Just to add something to this, ive been reading Swordmasters battle reports for weeks gaining as much knowledge as I could and following this thread closely along with Joey_Boy and SmithF threads.
It was the following post below that pushed me to pursue a MSU style army.

@Swordmaster of Hoeth:

Executioners are bad as MSU because there are so many other MSU kind of units that will take care of them, and a lot of them have better move as well. Adding that cavalry have better move and can stay out of range from such a unit, you'll soon see what a waste such a unit is since you won't get those favourable charges. The opponents have much better MSU options now.

The reason Swordmasters and White Lions are so great for MSU, is that they get to strike first and actually do a considerable amount of damage... enough to survive the strikes back, and they work great against opponent MSU. The Executioners is on the other side of the deal and won't do much at all unless the opponent is stupid and gives you a flank charge.

The reason why a pure MSU is a bad idea, is that your units will be shot down to smitherens in some battles, and you're force to take X numbers of panic tests. You will flee a lot, which might destroy the tactics you had in mind for flank charges and so on. I've experienced this in several of my MSU lists I tested out, for test battles, a tournament and against friends, and I personally think that while pure MSU is good, Dark Elves don't have what it takes anymore for a pure MSU list.

The units I like well for MSU-like styles are Witch Elves (ItP), Cold one Knights (ItP), Chariots (ItP), Shades, Crossbowmen, Dark Riders, Harpies, War Hydra, and our pegasus heroes... oh, and dragon too.

Executioners won't do much damage and aren't worth it in that role, Spear elves can be small meat shields and redirectors but don't move that well and panic quickly, Corsairs costs too much compared to what they can do (And we have other options doing it better) and Black Guards are okay at it but the witch elves can achieve more for a cheaper cost.

Stubborn is nice as long as the unit that has it survives.

Early on in the MSU discussion Clockwork posted his rough thoughts for a MSU army containing Executioners.

Okay, I've been refining this list further, based on your list above and some comments from Swordmaster over on ulthuan.net

level 4, Metal, Lifetaker, Dispel Scroll.

Whilst still pricey at 315 points, she does what I need her to for my army: long range support against high armour opponents (metal); counter magic (dispel scroll); and an ethereal counter/fire support (Lifetaker). I could give her ward saves or the Pendant, but I've found that wizards need really only fear shooting and template weapons, which they have Look Out Sir. Ideally, I should be controlling the movement phase and preventing her from getting into combat. These items would also push up her cost, and for the same reason I didn't take Seal of Ghrond, and as my strategy doesn't rely on Mindrazor, losing her to miscast or the odd assassination shouldn't be too much of a blow - hopefully. Unless its Blood and Glory, of course.

Cauldron, BSB

I really, really tried to work a double Cauldron list - but that 200 points really works well elsewhere. Also I don't fancy converting another Cauldron - its possible I may return to this after a few attempts, or when we get a plastic Cauldron/whatever dual kit.

Swordmaster suggested some cheap Pegasus Masters. Mundane ones come in at around 144 points.

20 Dark Elf Spearmen, Shields, Standard, Musician.

A bargain at 155 points, if you ask me. They have the shields to hit minimum core and 20 is a nice round number, though I could drop them for a magical standard (Swiftness or Discipline) and a couple extra bodies.

10 Black Arc Corsairs, Musician, Reaver with Repeater Handbows
10 Black Arc Corsairs, Musician, Reaver with Repeater Handbows

These guys perform a dual support/shooting/chaff role. Their 4+ armour save can be used as a living wall for the rest of my guys against missile fire. Their job is to clear out enemy chaff in the first few rounds, set up traps/flee charges, and then go in on flanks. To this end, they have Reavers for more volume of fire as well as challenge potential, as I am extremely light on champions elsewhere in the list. Plausibly, I could go for Standards instead for Blood and Glory - but I figure small throaway units like this would only give away Fortitude points.

5 Dark Riders, Musician, Repeater Crossbows
5 Dark Riders, Musician, Repeater Crossbows
5 Harpies
5 Harpies

Pretty much self-explanatory.

15 Executioners, Musician
15 Executioners, Musician

The wild cards of the list. Both units come in at a mere 186 points, which isn't a substantial increase over 10, but gives enough bodies to ensure that most of the guys eligible to attack in one round will get to do so. In other words, I can lose 5 without harming the units killing potential at all. Seeing as the MSU philosophy, as well as Dark Elf potential, works best when winning the first round of combat, I needn't really worry about rounds 2. This is probably where the double Cauldron would work best, as one could follow each unit of Executioners around, buffing them up and keeping them Stubborn.

6 Cold One Knights, Banner of the Eternal Flame
6 Cold One Knights
12 Blackguard
11 Blackguard
6 Shades, additional hand weapons
6 Shades, additional hand weapons

Firstly, no Witches. I really couldn't see how I could make them work: their poison is great against high toughness/low armour save models (Monstrous Infantry, Monsters) - but that role is going to the Executioners and Cold One Knights who will both be better at it, and can also go after high toughness/high armour save models (Monstrous Cav) which the Witches can't. They'll cut through lightly armoured troops for sure, but so will the Blackguard and Shades - and both will do it better. There's some tweaking of points here, where I could drop the Shade's additional hand weapons and give Musicians to the Blackguard, or add the 12th guy in (who can't currently due to Special cap o.o).

Some more drastic changes available:
Drop the Blackguard to 10 and a unit of Harpies, and use these points to grab Blackguard banners (as they are Stubborn they are unlikely to flee and lose them; though the unit is still small and may be destroyed through other means) and the Banner of Murder or Hag Graef. Alternatively, Blackguard champions with Crimson Death and Whip of Agony for some more high strength damage. This would also give both units some character-killing potential, if somewhat mutually assured. Which leads me on to my next option...

Replace the Harpies and tinker some points to get a Witch Elf Suicide Squad. If this list is lacking anything, its character-killing potential outside of the Executioners Killing Blow; a small team of Witches buffed by Cauldron Killing Blow could account for this by diving in and trying to kill characters off with their I6.

Drop a unit of Shades and the smaller unit of Blackguard for a second Cauldron. This leaves an awkward 45 points, though further changes (dropping the Harpies or reducing the size of the Blackguard) could allow for further additions (like the aforementioned Suicide Squad or 2, or one unit of around 10-12), or even try to squeeze in a cheap, mundane Pegasus Master (or a magical one with some extra cuts from Special).

Replace the Spearmen with a unit of Repeater Crossbows. I think the numbers are somewhere around 15. This would increase my shooting base further, but I'd lose the ranks and the combat ability. I really want to try and keep a combat theme, rather than shooting/avoidance. Alternatively, I could increase the size of the Corsairs to around 15 and start adding command options (particularly magic banners) and use them as close support, like a short range Swordmaster-style LSG unit. It would be broadly points-netural to do this, but it would concentrate more points in fewer units.

From this came my list which I submitted to a local tournament, only a small 1 dayer but I assumed id give it a try and refine from there. A few games at my local game club and I was happy I had a grasp of what I am meant to be doing with the list.

This is my list:

Lords:

Supreme Sorceress = 270
Lvl 4
Dragonbane Gem
Ironcurse Icon

Heroes:

Master = 187
Pegasus
Pendant of Khaelth
Dragon Helm
Heavy Armour
Sea Dragon Cloak
Great Weapon

Cauldron of Blood = 225
Army Battle Standard Bearer

Core:

20 Dark Elf Warriors = 155
Shield
Champion, Standard, Musician

20 Dark Elf Warriors= 155
Shields
Champion, Standard, Musician

5 Dark Riders = 117
Repeater Cross bows
Musician

5 Dark Riders = 117
Repeater Cross bows
Musician

10 Corsairs = 105
Swap Hand weapon for Handbow
Musician

5 Harpies = 55

5 Harpies = 55

Special:

5 Cold One Knights = 143
Musician

5 Cold One Knights = 143
Musician

15 Executioners = 208
Standard, Musician
Banner of Eternal Flame

15 Executioners = 186
Musician

6 Shades = 102
AHW

War Hydra = 175


It was my first tournament ever and I played running a fairly unrefined list using what I had.
Playing 3 games in one day I faced a full mounted empire army, with karl franz on giant griffon , 20 odd knights with Luther Huss and BSB, 3 units of 4 demi griffon knights and a small unit of 10 knights.
I proceeded to take a 17-3 win only failing to get the full 20 due to franz and his mount each remaining on 1 wound. The rest of his army was gone and I had lost my general to a miscast, unit of shades, 2 units of dark riders and 2 units of harpies. Not a bad game.
2nd game was against a lizardman army, slann in a unit of 40 temple guard, 50 saurus warriors, razordon pack of 3, salamander unit of 3, 10 terradons and a unit of 10 skinks. I managed to scrape a 11-9 win. I was lucky to get this, bad placing of dark riders allowed his slann unit to get by and charge my generals unit of spears and overrun into the COB, even with that massive loss I just scrapped by. Lack of checking cost me the points in that game.
Last game was vs a chaos dwarf army. I was completely unfamiliar with the army as I had never seen the army before. By the end of the game I had cleared the table for a 20-0 victory, losing only 20 spears and 10 corsairs.

The tournament ended with me placing 2nd. Not bad for a 1st tournament, not bad for a list which has all many of the downsides Omnichron stated.

I enjoyed playing MSU more than I have any game in 8th up to now. Its incredibly enjoyable and challenging, on the surface many players pawn it off uncompetitive list. Its this underestimated factor I like and one I could see dark elves playing up to in warfare.

Im going to continue to play with MSU and perhaps refine some of my own thoughts. Its an enjoyable play style. So I thank those who have shared their knowledge and argued points for and against.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Katon!

Congratulations on your success! Well done indeed!

It is really nice to be an underdog and then win (and in your case win big!) just to see the faces of your opponents. I still remember one of the games I had at CanCon when the guy on the other side of the table shook my hand after the game and the only thing he said was "How did it happen?"

I am very curious about your list as it is clear that you went against "internet wisdom" and made Executioners work as a part of the MSU army. A more detailed account on their performance (and entire army too) would be fantastic!

Just a warning, people start to respect MSU and you might not enjoy that advantage of being underestimated for long

Cheers!

[Clockwork]

Great work Katon! Any chance you could post some battle reports? I'd be really interested to see a blow by blow account.

[Katon]

I don’t have any battle reports as of yet, ive never really done any. I have battle chronicler and a game vs Lizardmen lined up for next week and the week after a 2600 practice game to help someone prepare for a tournament. I’ll get some photos of those games and try and use BC and get some reports up.

I’ll try and highlight a few Executioner moments now. I find in every game they do something.

Vs Skaven

with x2 HPA the HPA move in a pair, I intercept with the Peg master, take 4 wounds fail 3 armour saves and then roll 3 6s on the pendant. For no gain, to recover a unit of harpies line down the right flank of one HPA, with no ability to wheel they both move forward. Flaming exe charge the nearest HPA flank, take 7 wounds and deal enough to kill. Over run and next round are reduced to 2 remaining men, CoB buff +1 attack they deal 3 wounds and the HPA then mashes them in it’s turn.
With harpies still at its flank it can only move forward again, its at the board edge now and the un flame banner exe have their turn to try. They lose a few fail to do any wounds and remain in it’s flank till game end.

After losing the 187 points for my hero to bad luck the 196 flame exe brought me back in line with points, sadly the unit with no flaming attacks couldn’t get past the regen on the last HPA. If I hadn’t used the peg to try and stop the HPA I would have invested under 450 points to bring down 500. Having the rest of the army in a fairer fight with points.

I took a risk to finish it without flaming attacks, sometimes you just have to play for maximum points, pushing it off the table felt a boring way to deal.

Vs Orcs and Goblins

Spending the game cat and moussing units while I destroyed the warmachines mangler squigs and goblin units it ended up as my army vs 40 Orc Boy Big Unz with Gorbad (General and BSB 18” bubble and adds his wounds to failed animosity) and a unit of 36 Savage Orc Big Unz with the Shrunken head. Im left with x2 Executioner units, 1 hydra, a CoK unit and a unit of Spears.

My turn 6 last turn of the game. Its been a good MSU practice and again my peg master has failed me, charging a unit of spider riders on turn 2 hes been tied up their till turn 5 with them and a single troll before being combo charge with the Boys and the Savages, allowing them to line up in one behind the other to protect the savages from most of my units. Feeling I should try for it’ its an all out everyone charge.

Hydra goes in and hits the boyz, Cok join the hydra, Executioners go in too as do Spears, last exe unit hits the savages as a over run could be made from the boys with the exe and spears to hit the savages.
Gorbad challenges and im happy to send the Sorceress to the back as hes in base contact the with executioners. All units take some wounds and im just praying the he leaves me with enough exe to direct 6 attacks. At gorbad. Fortunately he does. The +1 CoB attack on them and the whole army under Glittering Scales I feel more durable than I am.
1 dead Gorbad later and im over running. Exe and spears connecting with the Savages. The still strong original Exe that charged the Savages direct what they can vs the lvl 2 shaman to get more points and the rest of everyone just grinds. I lose the small executioner unit holding Gorbads head and the spears are mashed to about 8 men remaining, the other executioner unit is on 8 models.

Break test time and im at -2, spears run away needing to keep my Sorceress alive, Orcs and Goblins players rubbing his hands with glee that his Orcs are going to chase down the spears for a healthy VP boost. Executioners roll 8, we check, there’s the CoB at 10 inch, they stick around and save the game.

Magic

In many games people under estimate the Executioners due to their size and in my local Meta to use a GW and not be a Dwarf isn’t very common, ive never faced an empire great sword in 3ish years, I think they are brilliant and would be an auto include in an Empire MSU army for me.

Backed up with metal magic the whole army does well. Lets try and think past the signature spell. I run the lore for the buffs, debuffs and the threat of final transmutation.

Plague of Rust is fairly easy to cast and is practically a RIP spell that cant be dispelled. Many opponents leave it to go by as -1 AS makes LA+Shield a 6+ and 2+ Knights still get a 3+. Add on the Enchanting blades gives you AP and +1 to hit, (the +1 to hit is often not spoken about), transmutation of Lead is -1 AS too and -1 WS and BS you can soon start to struggle.
The combination of those 3 spells can make Knights feel very fragile even vs S3. I had a unit of Harpies do 4 unsaved wounds to a DemiGriffon unit with that combination. Im hitting on 3s, they are hitting me on 4s, im wounding of 5s, but im wounding at -3AS with a unit for 55 points against a units which is far more expensive. And if they hadn’t charge my buffed harpies, I would have retained more points and had a road block for 1 more turn.

also like to show this, in my Tournament, I had to produce this as evidence to a few players after matches and within. From the FaQ:

Reference Section – Spell Types, Augment/Needs line of
sight?
Change “Y” to “N”
Reference Section – Spell Types, Hex/Needs line of sight?
Change “Y” to “N”

This makes both Hexes and Augments very powerful as my Sorceress and her units can face one way to cast Final Transmutation and still cast Plague of Rust, Enchanted Blades, and Transmutation of Lead to units to the side of behind. Or go for the big one and affect all units within 12”. no need for LOS, no need for Front Arc, just measure and cast.

If I asked you to pick the weakest unit in my list what would you pick and why?
I have my notions of the list weakness, what do you all think?

[Phierlihy]

I like your list and endorse your use of Lore of Metal. I would guess the Corsairs are your weakest link however I can see their use in an MSU list to make sure you catch what you break. I'd love it if you could throw up a few bat reps so we (*cough*I*cough*) could see it in action!

[Katon]

I like your list and endorse your use of Lore of Metal. I would guess the Corsairs are your weakest link however I can see their use in an MSU list to make sure you catch what you break. I'd love it if you could throw up a few bat reps so we (*cough*I*cough*) could see it in action!

Ask and you shall receive, the first and what I hope of many battle reports is up at the moment.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=72576

I would agree with you the Corsairs do look the weakest option, though I need them to fill the minimum core requirement. I considered 10 RxBs but they just feel as if they would be too static to complement the army, id add another unit of shades in a heartbeat if they would fit though.

I do rate the Corsairs Slaver rule though, it hasn’t yet come in handy but it’s nice to have it there.

I myself considered the CoK a slight weakness within the list. Their Stupidity is sometimes difficult to deal with as my BSB can’t always baby sit them. Their ITP is also a downer, yes they don’t fear anything and they can’t panic but in some games I need the option to flee and it just isn’t there with Knights. I hopefully will get over that with some careful placement. It’s always nice to be able to flee, that’s a reason witches and BG don’t feature in the line-up at the moment. I need that option to flee until I become more accurate with my unit placements.

Anyway enjoy the Battle Report. Feed back good or bad is welcome on it.