The Cauldron: What does it really bring?

[Poisonblade]

It's only worth it if you take witches... which most people probably will because it's the best way to fill up our core points.

I plan on running a unit of Black Guard with a Dark Sorceress with Ring next to the witches block. Both units will be within the ring's area and both units will get to reroll to wound. Black Guard may be at S5 due to power of darkness and the Sorc will be relatively safe from Power of Darkness due to the ring's MR. I like Black Guard next to the Cauldron because of their higher attacks and medium/low strength, they will greatly benefit from the rerolls whereas regular Murderous Prowess already helps the executioners reroll everything against most targets.

Still all in theory of course, but I like it.

The cauldron is really expensive and I hate that, but the 5+ ward to witches is nice, and then having another unit close that benefits from rerolls to wounds is essential for getting the most value. Both of my blocks have I6 and ASF, so I will be doing a lot of rerolling.

[Askador]

It's only worth it if you take witches... which most people probably will because it's the best way to fill up our core points.

I plan on running a unit of Black Guard with a Dark Sorceress with Ring next to the witches block. Both units will be within the ring's area and both units will get to reroll to wound. Black Guard may be at S5 due to power of darkness and the Sorc will be relatively safe from Power of Darkness due to the ring's MR. I like Black Guard next to the Cauldron because of their higher attacks and medium/low strength, they will greatly benefit from the rerolls whereas regular Murderous Prowess already helps the executioners reroll everything against most targets.

Still all in theory of course, but I like it.

The cauldron is really expensive and I hate that, but the 5+ ward to witches is nice, and then having another unit close that benefits from rerolls to wounds is essential for getting the most value. Both of my blocks have I6 and ASF, so I will be doing a lot of rerolling.

I agree. And its also nice to have the posibility to give Frenzy to a Unit next to the Witches if its needet. If you charge in close combat with BG it can be cool to buff them with the CoB.

[Sezax]

I dont understand the part about "losing" attacks.

If I run CoB in Witch Horde, then I GAIN attacks in the first rank right ? I mean the base is 60x100, so if I imagine it correctly, then not only do I gain "fake ranks" thanks to cauldron, but I also replace 3 witches in first rank with 2 witches (crewmen) and DH...

If I use my old CoB model, then I just place it on 60x100 and place 2 witches + 1 hag in the front of the base since their 3x 20 mm exactly fill the 60 front of the base...Or do I do imagine something in a wrong way, since its a chariot now ?

[Dalamar]

in space of the cauldron you can fit 15 witch elves, so in horde formation that's 15 attacks (9 from the front rank and 6 from supporting ranks)

If you put Cauldron in there, you get 3 attacks from each witch elf and 5 from the hag for a total of 11.

Net loss of 4 attacks but you gain impact hits. For me that's a gain.

[Trax]

Why would you lose the supporting attacks from the gals behind the cauldron's model though? I can't see any evidence that they would. Would further reduce the attack loss to a single one, which is already accounted for by the scythes and gives the Cauldron quite a solid net gain.

[Dalamar]

Because the cauldron is ranks 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. Next rank is 6 and even high elf spearmen in horde formation can't support from a 6th rank.

[Trax]

Supporting attacks have strictly nothing to do with ranks though, the BRB allows models a supporting attack, if they are behind a model that is in base contact with an enemy model (p.48 German BRB, should be about the same in the English one).

[Apollyon]

If I'm interpreting it correctly, the combination of a DH with Witchbrew(or Hellebron), the Frenzy bound spell, and Witch Elves natural Frenzy would come out to a total of 4 attacks each, which is absolutely brutal.

P.S. Does the Cauldron's spell and Witchbrew work on other units? I wouldn't mind Executioners with Tullaris having 4 s5 Killing Blow attacks apiece.

P.P.S. I don't have the book yet, so forgive me if I've made a mistake.

[HERO]

Yes, it works on other units like Executioners. And they're S6.

[Dalamar]

Witch Elf max attacks:
1 - base
+1 - second hand weapon
+1 - frenzy
+1 - super frenzy

So yes, max attacks on a rank and file witch elf is 4 (remember witchbrew doesn't stack with cauldron's frenzy or another witchbrew)

[Paricidas]

From a skaven Player:

RBTs dont have the trained murder rule, so no rerolling to wound for them.

strength 3 attacks, even 10.000 poisoned rerollable to hit and to wound ones, will accomplish nothing without the AP banner.

Grey seers have an unbelievable survivabily in CC, granted, a death hag is not a seer, but at least the Duell blades will come in Handy for anything (that has previously been debuffed to) ws4. If you are funny, you can give her a sign of khaine and a dwilight cloak for up to 9 asf rerollable to hit rerollable to wound KB multiwound attacks, should scare the living daylights out of some challengers.

A pair of assassins with high strengh and the other tricksters shard will perhaps make short work out of most characters that dare to hide in the target unit of a CoB charge

It is uncertain if the CoB must always be in the middle of the unit, at least the german text does not make it clear whether the "always in the middle" rule refers to joining a unit or is a General rule. I guess "make way" would be ok for every Opponent.

rerolling to wound for KB-execs is a godsend, especialy for frenzied ones.

rerolling to-wound for mages seems idiotic, but hey, i did not write those rules... Even the laughable lore Attribute from dark Magic suddenly seems a Little more nasty.

The 6+ wardsave is really nice, especialy if you couple it with MR to a toal of a healthy 2+ or 3+ wardsave against Magic.

cannons are a really really big Problem, if you look at the punny Dresses of our elfs, even bows will be one...

[Apollyon]

Witch Elf max attacks:
1 - base
+1 - second hand weapon
+1 - frenzy
+1 - super frenzy

So yes, max attacks on a rank and file witch elf is 4 (remember witchbrew doesn't stack with cauldron's frenzy or another witchbrew)

So if you have Witchbrew and/or a Cauldron, they will still have 4 attacks.(?)

[HERO]

Grey seers have an unbelievable survivabily in CC, granted, a death hag is not a seer, but at least the Duell blades will come in Handy for anything (that has previously been debuffed to) ws4. If you are funny, you can give her a sign of khaine and a dwilight cloak for up to 9 asf rerollable to hit rerollable to wound KB multiwound attacks, should scare the living daylights out of some challengers.

Can only take magic weapons.

[Paricidas]

thanks for clarification, so that leaves:

sword of antiheroes: kill it bevor it kills you
Duell blades: be hit on 5+ if enemy has ws <5
warcry of khaine: ld -3 or be hit only on 5+
Magic in all its nasty buff/debuff forms.

Sounds like the hag does not have a Long life.... :C

btw: the cauldron gains the skirmisher rule if it is deployed in shades, hehe.

[Setomidor]

btw: the cauldron gains the skirmisher rule if it is deployed in shades, hehe.

... except mounted characters cannot join skirmishers.

[Calisson]

Supporting attacks have strictly nothing to do with ranks though, the BRB allows models a supporting attack, if they are behind a model that is in base contact with an enemy model (p.48 German BRB, should be about the same in the English one).

That is what I thought, but after checking, it is not the case.
The rule says:
"SUPPORTING ATTACKS
Warriors in the second rank (...) We refer to the attacks made by these models as supporting attacks.
A model can make a supporting attack if it is directly behind a freindly model that is itself fighting an enemy in base contact (...)
THE HORDE
(...) Warriors in a horde can make supporting attacks from the third rank (...)"
There is explicit mention about 2nd rank and 3rd rank, in addition to being behind the model in base contact.
Models behind a COB/shrine would be in the 6th rank, so no supporting attack.

RBTs dont have the trained murder rule, so no rerolling to wound for them.

It is uncertain if the CoB must always be in the middle of the unit, at least the german text does not make it clear whether the "always in the middle" rule refers to joining a unit or is a General rule. I guess "make way" would be ok for every Opponent.

RBT do have the trained murder rule, as you can check in the AB.

AB p.47, COB/shrine must be in the middle of the unit's front rank. Make way is not applicable, the "middle" rule is "always".

btw: the cauldron gains the skirmisher rule if it is deployed in shades, hehe.

Debatable: AB p.47: "(otherwise, the COB/shrine is not to be treated as a character)." where otherwise refers to joining & leaving units. Anyway, the only change it makes would be double-move and shoot for the shrine.

[Setomidor]

I think you guys miss a small details about the Cauldron making you lose attacks; that only applies if you have a big enough (or narrow enough) unit to get four ranks or more. Otherwise, the Witches that get displaced will simply be moved into the backranks of another part of the unit instead and will still strike.

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40 attacks (3x10 + 1x10 supporting).

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47 attacks (3x2 from cauldron, 5x1 from DH, 3x7 + 1x13 supporting)

[Liquidedust]

I think you guys miss a small details about the Cauldron making you lose attacks; that only applies if you have a big enough (or narrow enough) unit to get four ranks or more. Otherwise, the Witches that get displaced will simply be moved into the backranks of another part of the unit instead and will still strike.

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WWWWWWWWWW
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40 attacks (3x10 + 1x10 supporting).

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WWWCCCWWWW
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47 attacks (3x2 from cauldron, 5x1 from DH, 3x7 + 1x13 supporting)

Against an opponent 5 wide it changes some some though.

3x7 + 7 supporting = 28

versus

3x4 + 8 supporting +3x2 and 5x1 = 31

it is still a net gain if you go from non-horde to horde.
if you go from non-horde to non-horde its only 4 supporting however, and a net loss of 1

[Paricidas]

@ Calisson:
a. In my AB (german) the RBT does not have trained murder. The Crew has it, but I was under the Impression that this would not carry over to the warmachine, as I cannot find anything that indicates this, neither in AB nor BRB, but I am really no pro when it Comes to WH rules.
b. 100% agreed on "make way"
c. p. 48 of the BRB offers two rles for supporting attacks which contradict each other. As Cali already cited we have a "2nd rank"- rule and a "model behind the model that is in btb contact" rule.. I Play by Version B.

[Calisson]

@ Calisson:
a. In my AB (german) the RBT does not have trained murder. The Crew has it, but I was under the Impression that this would not carry over to the warmachine, as I cannot find anything that indicates this, neither in AB nor BRB, but I am really no pro when it Comes to WH rules.

How did I miss that?
Thanks for pointing at my mistake.

[Setomidor]

I've been pondering the Cauldron a bit more, and the idea of a WE horde with CoB is growing on me. I'm still very much afraid it will become cannon bait, but will probably bring a pair of Kharibysses and a PegBSB of Twilight along to provide some target saturation and to try to jump warmachines quickly.

For the Cauldron itself, I'm thinking the Obsidian Blade might be a really Weapon upgrade for the Death Hag. She probably wants to fight as many challenges as possible simply to stay alive, and with ASF at I8, S4, and reroll to-wound the Obsidian Blade can help her considerably to fend of enemy characters. It also gives the whole unit a big edge when fighting stuff like Demigryphs.

[Liquidedust]

@ Calisson:
a. In my AB (german) the RBT does not have trained murder. The Crew has it, but I was under the Impression that this would not carry over to the warmachine, as I cannot find anything that indicates this, neither in AB nor BRB, but I am really no pro when it Comes to WH rules.

How did I miss that?
Thanks for pointing at my mistake.

If the model has murderous prowess the cauldron grants the model the ability to re-roll all fail to wound rolls.

A warmachine is a single model with a split profile, hence the model has murderous prowess since the crew has it.

Oh but there is an exception to murderous prowess, it doesn't transfer to steeds! But the warmachine isn't a steed so it isn't applicable here.

Therefore a bolt thrower near a Cauldron does get re-roll to wound on all failed to wound rolls, since it fullfils all the prerequisites for it.

[MangoPunch]

@ Calisson:
a. In my AB (german) the RBT does not have trained murder. The Crew has it, but I was under the Impression that this would not carry over to the warmachine, as I cannot find anything that indicates this, neither in AB nor BRB, but I am really no pro when it Comes to WH rules.

How did I miss that?
Thanks for pointing at my mistake.

If the model has murderous prowess the cauldron grants the model the ability to re-roll all fail to wound rolls.

A warmachine is a single model with a split profile, hence the model has murderous prowess since the crew has it.

Oh but there is an exception to murderous prowess, it doesn't transfer to steeds! But the warmachine isn't a steed so it isn't applicable here.

Therefore a bolt thrower near a Cauldron does get re-roll to wound on all failed to wound rolls, since it fullfils all the prerequisites for it.

Does this make a DE Gunline Viable? 4 RBTs and some RXBs in front of your COB, some Bolt Thrower Chariots...

[Apollyon]

Isn't Murderous Prowess only in CC?

[Liquidedust]

Isn't Murderous Prowess only in CC?

Yes but RAW that is actually irrelevant to this arguement . The cauldron passive ability doesn't improve murderous prowess, it improves models with the murderous prowess ability to re-roll all fail to wound rolls RAW.

RAI is another debate of course.