The Cauldron: What does it really bring?

[Lysanthyr]

Everyone talks about how big of a point sink the cauldron is, but most of you look over the fact that Tully is going to die long before the cauldron will. 155 pts for a uy in HA with no ward save that strikes in Initative order and only has 2 wounds will die long before the T5 cauldron with its 4++ ward save. I would forego the crazy frenzy on the Exec's and just put a 115 DH with Witchbrew in the unit. 5A with Poison at S4 that ASF with I8. It's called challenge and kill to protect.

[HERO]

It's called challenge and kill to protect.

Or refuse the challenge and swing at her?

[Paricidas]

You dont buy the cauldron because you want a death hag, you buy the cauldron because you want a cauldron.

I have never played with the new cauldron, but I have had my fair share with bells, and you generaly do not care too much about the seer (in a skaven army!!!), so why care about the hag in a DE army? If the Opponent attacks the hag, he will spoil his CR AND let the cauldron do its cauldronic duty for another round.
And even if the hag dies in CC, you still have won the combat against the enemies most terrifying unit and thus have won the game.

The only Little fault in this assumption is the frenzy this Thing likes to cruise around. I foretell that caudlron Units will become deathstars, and frenzied deathstars are much much harder to handle than an unbreakable bell with two phases of movement.
Therefor imho an army that is based around CC cauldrons must include Tools the get rid of chaff (RXBs, MMs...) and a lot of chaff that blocks the cauldrons overrun path. Say hello to the 50% core army .

[marcopollo]

Going back to the RBT and MP/SoK combinations (or lack thereof). I would think that if RxB get a MP re-roll (or SoK), then so should the RBT. The argument gets as silly as the old addage: "Guns don't kill people, people kill people". I mean how about:

1) MP/SoK and magic missles or breath weapons/ or Medusae stares.
2) MP/SoK miscasts damage (to your or someone else's models) -- what if the caster dies before damage dealt to other models? What if it is your intent to exploit a miscast from combinations in other army books rules? As allies or enemies.

You need to get into what that statistical reality is meant to represent in real/"fantasy" terms. But that is RaI.

But, what about CoB in a DR unit. Is it still fast cav?

[Lysanthyr]

This arguement is starting to sould like one I had with a couple of HE players when they thouht they could put Dispel Scrolls on Unit Champs just because the Army Book said they could have any Magic Item up to 25pts. I personally have no problem trying to milk as much as I can out of an Army Book, but come on people. You all know that the FAQ is going to say that it is for CC only so stop trying to get more. If it worked the way you want it to, then it would be a 250pt upgrade, not 190.

[HERO]

My biggest problem right now with the Cauldron is that it's 275 with a naked Hag. That's a lot of freaking points man.

No matter what, I'll be giving the Cauldron a shot in my next game. Here's the list I plan on taking:

2498
9 drops

LORDS:
Lv.4 Supreme Sorc, Scroll = 245
Life

HEROES:
Master BSB, 1+ RR, SoMight = 155

Death Hag, Cauldron, Cry = 290

CORE:
30x Witch Elves, FC, Razor Standard = 405
5x Black Riders, Shield, RXB, Mus = 110
5x Black Riders, Shield, RXB, Mus = 110

SPECIAL:
26x Executioners, FC, SoDisc = 357
28x Executioners, FC = 366
3x RBT = 210

RARE:
5x Warlocks = 125
5x Warlocks = 125

I could probably find room for Cry of War, but I'll see what happens with this for a bit. Deployment for Cauldron will be: WWCCCWW for 7-wide, staying as close to the battleline as possible, or reform and move on its own to get more units in range.

Witches in front, flanked by 2x Executioner units, all re-rolls to wound, let's go.

[Jvh792]

In my humble opinion, cry of war is the best upgrade that you can buy for the points. You test fear every round of combat, and so get a fresh chance to nuke their ws. Combos well with dark magic's ability to isolate leadership tests. And the downside of the upgrade is minimal.
Simply block your unit with dark riders so that it can't charge even though it wants to. Walk right into an opponents face, and in a squad that is THAT killy, that +1 combat res on charge won't matter. They should be testing on snake eyes even with the charge.
OR just keep your general in a different unit nearby.

[HERO]

In my humble opinion, cry of war is the best upgrade that you can buy for the points. You test fear every round of combat, and so get a fresh chance to nuke their ws. Combos well with dark magic's ability to isolate leadership tests. And the downside of the upgrade is minimal.
Simply block your unit with dark riders so that it can't charge even though it wants to. Walk right into an opponents face, and in a squad that is THAT killy, that +1 combat res on charge won't matter. They should be testing on snake eyes even with the charge.
OR just keep your general in a different unit nearby.

Combos with Dark, which I don't use because the Lore is garbage. And it does work every round, except on the round she's dead because who would wan't the Death Hag alive swinging constantly? She's essentially two Witches, except you can single her out. I'll find points for the Cry, I'm not too worried about that.

I still think her point cost is just ridiculously high compared to a Master. She should of been 50-60 points, easy, especially since the Cauldron is priced at that. Nevermind that though, I'm just ranting about balance-related specifics.

I really think you want Lore of Life with this because you can heal the unit with Regrowth and Lifebloom the Chariot. Toughness on it is also kind of disgusting, she can Regen her own unit of Executioners, and you have enough killing power that you don't need combat boosts from Shadow.

Deployment will look something like:
EEEEEEE WWCCCWW EEEEEEE

Both units are in Cauldron range with the SS and BSB in the unit with Ld.10.

[Paricidas]

Simply block your unit with dark riders so that it can't charge even though it wants to.

Charges dont kill frenzied Units, overruns do.

[Poisonblade]

My biggest problem right now with the Cauldron is that it's 275 with a naked Hag. That's a lot of freaking points man.

No matter what, I'll be giving the Cauldron a shot in my next game. Here's the list I plan on taking:

SPECIAL:
26x Executioners, FC, SoDisc = 357
28x Executioners, FC = 366

Executioners don't benefit as much from being near the Cauldron unless you fight a lot of T5+ stuff. I think in order to get the most out of the CoB, Black Guard are better than Executioners. Maybe try a unit of each and see for yourself.

If I didn't take a Cauldron, then I would take Executioners, they are better without support. Cauldron near Black Guard is pretty crazy. Rerolls galore!

Anyway, I look forward to seeing what you think of it. So far it's been the MVP of both of my games (Hag will die though, who cares). I took Cry of War, but both my opponents have been Undead. Maybe one day I'll play an army not immune to it.

[HERO]

Simply block your unit with dark riders so that it can't charge even though it wants to.

Charges dont kill frenzied Units, overruns do.

Bingo.
You get overrun, then you get flanked and annihilated.

[Vilicate]

I find the forced pursuit moves are pretty devastating as well if you're playing against a skilled opponent.

I can't justify taking the Cauldron often, really. It's SOOO many points, and I can have two or three little units, or a good sized big one, for the same cost. Granted, I haven't honestly fielded it yet, so this is purely conjecture.

[HERO]

I find the forced pursuit moves are pretty devastating as well if you're playing against a skilled opponent.

I can't justify taking the Cauldron often, really. It's SOOO many points, and I can have two or three little units, or a good sized big one, for the same cost. Granted, I haven't honestly fielded it yet, so this is purely conjecture.

Hopefully, I'll be running it in tonight's game.

[Vilicate]

Good deal. You'll for sure have to let everyone know how it worked for you. I've promised myself I'm going to give it a go the next game I get in with my Dark Elves.

[Dangerous Beans]

Poisonblade, I've been thinking exactly that - Black Guard look really savage with the Cauldron! Re-roll to hit and wound - put the Razor Standard on them and have a Beasts wizard nearby in a seperate bunker...

OR! Have the sneaky Dark Wizard with Life & the Sac Dagg (or Dark & Tome if you want more wounds on her through Soul Stealer) comboed with Black Amulet and The Other Trickster's Shard, because lets face it - you're going to want your opponents to engage your little block eh?!

Their problem is their armour save - the Witch Elves have a bit of an advantage over you there and in combination with the Magic Resistence 4+ Ward (vs spells) for witches is something rather tasty and adds to the utility of the model.

Remember, the enemy must destroy the whole model to gain the relevant points for it - so if the hag or the cauldron survive seperately thats likely 0vp for your opponent! Sure, a cannonball could wreck it in turn 1 but I think a life mage nearby will quickly reheal the wounds on it (just like your VERY tasty looking list HERO!), plus with life nearby you can always make it T8/10 with Flesh to Stone!

[marcopollo]

That is a lot of points. But if you consider the replacement cost of 15 WE and subtract that from the total. The numbers start to look a little more reasonable.

[Paricidas]

If you think that 2 rerollable str 4 attacks are something to write home about, go for BGs. With a cauldron thats about 700-800 Points, methinks. BGs always test on 9 or 10, so they will hold if they get flanked after an overrun, but thats probably the only good Thing about them.

I still wonder what Kind of different metas we all must be playing. DE have a unit that Comes with ASF twohanded weapons and KB and here we discuss about BGs...

[Jvh792]

I've pondered the double death star tactic
Witches horde w/ Cauldron
7 wide Black guard unit of about 20-30

Witches are the main line, black guard are the flank support. Black guard eat charges and hold on stubborn, witches flank charge on your turn and end Sh*t. Expensive I know. But with Life magic, it could work.

[HERO]

Good deal. You'll for sure have to let everyone know how it worked for you. I've promised myself I'm going to give it a go the next game I get in with my Dark Elves.

Just had a game vs. HE (a ton of them around here). Game wasn't very exciting, got a rear charge off with my Warlocks into the rear of some helms, got big Soulblight off in the middle of his army, and broke the unit of Helms and his BSB. It was vs. an all flying army that ran around and tried to pick off some units. Eagles were there, ASF ones with AP that actually took a fair toll on my chaff. I played my Warlocks well though, dodging LoS and using max range to stay alive.

Basically, I just crawled up the hill and I couldn't be brought to battle. We labbed some results after and with the Witches, the Cauldron and the stupid Hag Tax, we determined the ~700 points spent is just too damn expensive.

I'll probably give it another try, but I don't feel super excited about it.

[Canadianguy]

I know there are number crunchers out there so I am throwing this out there.
A hag cauldron will run you roughly 300
A unit of 27 witches is roughly 300

So if someone could calcualate how many witches would die in 2 rounds of shooting ( various str, # of shots etc) with and without ward save then how much damage 27 horde with and withoutthe cauldron can put out and the amount that die with hits back. Also without horde formation.

For me i think itwill really boil down to how effective that ward save is as either will hit hard, likely hard enough!

[Poisonblade]

If you think that 2 rerollable str 4 attacks are something to write home about, go for BGs. With a cauldron thats about 700-800 Points, methinks. BGs always test on 9 or 10, so they will hold if they get flanked after an overrun, but thats probably the only good Thing about them.

I still wonder what Kind of different metas we all must be playing. DE have a unit that Comes with ASF twohanded weapons and KB and here we discuss about BGs...

The thread isn't about which is better between Executioners and Black Guard. The thread is about getting the most out of the Cauldron. If you aren't taking the Cauldron, I think Executioners are better than Black Guard now. MP is amazing for Executioners, it essentially gives them the Cauldron's buff all the time. In order to get the most out of the Cauldron, I think the Black Guard are a better choice.

I think having 3 (because of supporting attacks) S4 attacks that reroll to hit and to wound is pretty damn good. Comparable to 2 S6 attacks, that only reroll to wound. But a small augment or even the AP banner on the black guard and their extremely reliable rolls will take its toll on your opponent.

I wouldn't take a Cauldron if I was going executioner heavy. They don't need it and I could buy a lot more Witches with 300 points.

[Krueger1981]

Good deal. You'll for sure have to let everyone know how it worked for you. I've promised myself I'm going to give it a go the next game I get in with my Dark Elves.

Just had a game vs. HE (a ton of them around here). Game wasn't very exciting, got a rear charge off with my Warlocks into the rear of some helms, got big Soulblight off in the middle of his army, and broke the unit of Helms and his BSB. It was vs. an all flying army that ran around and tried to pick off some units. Eagles were there, ASF ones with AP that actually took a fair toll on my chaff. I played my Warlocks well though, dodging LoS and using max range to stay alive.

Basically, I just crawled up the hill and I couldn't be brought to battle. We labbed some results after and with the Witches, the Cauldron and the stupid Hag Tax, we determined the ~700 points spent is just too damn expensive.

I'll probably give it another try, but I don't feel super excited about it.

Thats why I feel 20 woman we unit will be the way to go. A whole horde is expensive. 20 man unit gives one rank of casulties, full cr for ranks, and only totals 250 with full command. Have a 7 wide plus 3 in second rank corsair unit in front of them for shooting/mm protection at 110 or 120 if you include a musician. 550-600 points for a main combat unit is much easier to swallow.

It is interesting that are core troops are so good. Outside of a executioner unit, 2 units of harpies, 2 units of shades (not sure how many yet but say 8 ), and 3-4 rbt's it will be cool to see a good # of points in our armies core. In rare the only unit that really screams out to me is a 10 man warlock unit (I would love to play in a meta where I could get by using a 5 man unit). I might try to fit in a gladiator chick unit (10-14 size) as a flanker for the exe's but points might be tight.

[Jakem]

Sorry if someone already mentioned this.

I see a lot of people calculating attacks for the cauldron crew and the hag and doing it wrong...

Remember that you don't get +1 attack for extra hand weapon when mounted.

[Calisson]

Actually, you're right (BRB p.91).
No AWH for COB crew (including DH and Hellebron).

[HERO]

Actually, you're right (BRB p.91).
No AWH for COB crew (including DH and Hellebron).

Does Hellebron ignore this because of Paired Weapons built in?
Regardless, I'm about given up on the COB.