The Cauldron: What does it really bring?

[HERO]

Cauldron with a naked Hag is 275 points. That's a lot of points for a piece that doesn't really do much damage by himself. Let's compare some pros and cons..

+Allows ALL MODELS with Murderous Prowess within 6" to re-roll wounds
+Gives Witches 5+ ward save
+Comes with a bound level Frenzy spell

-Really expensive
-All your RBTs will be in the same location to get the re-roll wounds bonus
-If you put it in the Witch unit, it makes it very large and unwieldy
-Increases effectiveness of Witches in a big unit, but makes it weaker if you want to keep a smaller footprint
-Unprotected BSB unless you buy another one, or run the Hag naked

Is it me or do I only see the value of the Cauldron in a horde of Witches? I see much better points spent elsewhere.

[Shadoer]

Well in theory, the big payoff for the Cauldron is the Frenzy Spell. Get that off on a unit of Cold One Knights and suddenly it's like we have the Hydra Banner again. The problem is getting the bound spell off...

[Saintofm]

@ Shadoer: What about doing a few heavy spells first to have the opponent to waste dispell dice on, and then try it?

Or has someone much smarter than eye tested that theory already?

[Jvh792]

You wouldn't get to reroll with RBT. Only close combat gets to reroll with murderous prowess.
I think in a horde of anything it will do great. Witches in particular because of the extra ward save. But in black guard it would be a lot of fun. Certainly better in witches though. Sisters of slaughter if you wanted an unbelievably expensive unit?

[HERO]

You wouldn't get to reroll with RBT. Only close combat gets to reroll with murderous prowess.
I think in a horde of anything it will do great. Witches in particular because of the extra ward save. But in black guard it would be a lot of fun. Certainly better in witches though. Sisters of slaughter if you wanted an unbelievably expensive unit?

Horde Witches actually scare me because that's a lot of points spent, even more expensive with Cauldron, for a unit with Frenzy.

And also, the rule for Cauldron specifically states that models with the MP rule re-roll ALL to wound rolls, not just those in close combat.

[Calisson]

COB in a unit must be as close as possible of the centre of the unit front.
Its footprint is 3 x 5 bases = 15 more models.
- With 30 WE or Exec, that makes 45, i.e. 5x9 or 7x6+3 or 10x4+5.
You can make a bus, a 7-wide square or a horde.
A horde is great to get so many attacks that opponent's steadfast should not be a problem for very long. Especially useful for Execs.


The COB can be aimed at separately from DH and unit. The 2 servants cannot be aimed at, only COB or DH.
D6 impact on the charge. 2 servants fight just like all WE. 6+/4++. Don't forget terror, if DH takes cry of war (-3Ld to test fear), it does provide some protection.
The DH can be aimed at separately from COB and unit. She is vulnerable (only 5++) but can get 50pts magic weapon plus any single gift of K.
Overall, the presence of the COB over the DH only is a net loss of 3 supporting attacks, or 6 for hordes, but the mere presence of the COB is what allows hordes to be made.

The COB provides 5++ to WE, or 6++ to Execs. That's important for either one.
The COB rerolls all failed wounds, not only 1s. That's huge for WE. For Execs, it matters only for T5 or higher.
The COB's frenzy is huge over Execs, and marginal for WE.

Overall, I feel that a COB is a must-have for any WE or Exec unit sized over 25.
I don't have the time to mathammer now, it would be nice to verify.

The mitigation of frensy is easy: place 5 harpies in front. If you want to charge, send them charging anything else first. If you don't want to charge, they will not test for frenzy, as the charge is impossible.

-=-=-

Problem with a horde is that units on the side will not be within 6" of COB, therefore lose wound rerolls.
Assuming RBT get COB's reroll (which is clear RAW), at deployment, RBTs will pack up behind the horde, all within 6", shooting above the horde's heads (but not above the COB).
This makes the horde a nice sitting duck for opponent's warmachines, but that's what 5++ is for.

[No Saves]

Struggling to see the point of the Cauldron. Firstly, although RAW you can reroll failed wounds on ranged attacks, come on, you know that's not the intention and I'm sure it will be FAQd. I certainly will be playing it for combat only. And anyway, I don't think you could use it for Bolt Throwers anyway could you? I assume the Bolt Thrower itself doesn't have the MP rule.

I don't get why you'd put it in anything other than Witches. 6++ is worthless, I mean, it's technically a bonus but I'd neve factor it into any of my plans or calculation or anything. It's not unreasonable to take 12 saves and not pass a single one of them if you just have a 6++. Plus if you put them in Executioners, you're giving up 6 of the Execs high-strength attacks! And replacing them with what? The Death Hag can pay for a weapon, and has a lot of attacks... but pretty much NO defence - she'll die, and with her your dreams will too. Okay, so the Death hag can Frenzy the unit with her Witch Brew... but you can just put her in the unit WITHOUT a Cauldron, save TONS of points, still give them Frenzy, and limit the attacks against her (oh, and stop her being shot by cannons and other war machines).

[MangoPunch]

Unless it gets Faq'D (which it probably will) I think it would be funny to park it alone behind some RxBs and 4 RBTs.

[Ichiyo1821]

You guys fail to see that the size of the COb is actually tactical as anyone who wants to cahrge it has to maximize on the the models to either side. The attendats and DH are no pushovers themselves on top of the impact hits. You don't atcualky lose a lot of attacks as you're supporting attacks only ever contribute 1 attack anyway. The COB alone dies a lot more damage than the displace rnf models.

[HERO]

You guys fail to see that the size of the COb is actually tactical as anyone who wants to cahrge it has to maximize on the the models to either side. The attendats and DH are no pushovers themselves on top of the impact hits. You don't atcualky lose a lot of attacks as you're supporting attacks only ever contribute 1 attack anyway. The COB alone dies a lot more damage than the displace rnf models.

I barely understood this, can you say it again?

[Enkiel]

You guys fail to see that the size of the COb is actually tactical as anyone who wants to cahrge it has to maximize on the the models to either side. The attendats and DH are no pushovers themselves on top of the impact hits. You don't atcualky lose a lot of attacks as you're supporting attacks only ever contribute 1 attack anyway. The COB alone dies a lot more damage than the displace rnf models.

I barely understood this, can you say it again?

skaven with the bell often use this.... since you need to maximize the number of model in combat, your opponent has to "slide" to one or the other side, to maximize the number of model in contact (since the CoB is 1 model).

Pretty hard to explain, and from what i've seen, sliding isnt supposed to ever happen.

[Liquidedust]

You guys fail to see that the size of the COb is actually tactical as anyone who wants to cahrge it has to maximize on the the models to either side. The attendats and DH are no pushovers themselves on top of the impact hits. You don't atcualky lose a lot of attacks as you're supporting attacks only ever contribute 1 attack anyway. The COB alone dies a lot more damage than the displace rnf models.

I barely understood this, can you say it again?

The cauldron doesn't give you less attacks, it actually increases your damage output due to its footprint and impact hits. Make your opponent have less attacks on the unit since you have to maximize models in combat ( depending on frontage).

[Liquidedust]

You guys fail to see that the size of the COb is actually tactical as anyone who wants to cahrge it has to maximize on the the models to either side. The attendats and DH are no pushovers themselves on top of the impact hits. You don't atcualky lose a lot of attacks as you're supporting attacks only ever contribute 1 attack anyway. The COB alone dies a lot more damage than the displace rnf models.

I barely understood this, can you say it again?

skaven with the bell often use this.... since you need to maximize the number of model in combat, your opponent has to "slide" to one or the other side, to maximize the number of model in contact (since the CoB is 1 model).

Pretty hard to explain, and from what i've seen, sliding isnt supposed to ever happen.

Sliding never happens, but you have to put as many models into combat as possible during the maneuvering charge movement (from both sides)

[Enkiel]

skaven with the bell often use this.... since you need to maximize the number of model in combat, your opponent has to "slide" to one or the other side, to maximize the number of model in contact (since the CoB is 1 model).

Pretty hard to explain, and from what i've seen, sliding isnt supposed to ever happen.

Sliding never happens, but you have to put as many models into combat as possible during the maneuvering charge movement (from both sides)

which is why a smaller footprint unit will never be directly in front of a CoB in a horde, which is where "sliding" will happen.

[Druchiilad]

When I first saw Calderon and Witches vs Death Hag and Corsairs the latter took my fancy, but after play testing the Corsairs could only kill around 12 Saurus Warriors, (I use Saurus as they are good all rounders, good S, T, Sv) the Witches doubled that, (on average a few plays they killed 28!!!). Now I'm thinking 24 Witches and Cauldron with Witchbrew, have Tullaris in Executioners nearby and both get the double frenzy.

[Golan]

if I am not mistaken double Witchbrew will give +2 Attack (Frenzy and boosted frenzy)? So the additional DH in horde unit with CoB will bring cheaper frenzy than named character: Tullaris

I am still thinking how CoB will behave in 5 wide unit with FCG? It will be placed in second rank giving 1 supporting attack?

//edit:
with abillity to make a move (only if DH is alive) in case of making charge to make use of impact hits?

[Askador]

if I am not mistaken double Witchbrew will give +2 Attack (Frenzy and boosted frenzy)? So the additional DH in horde unit with CoB will bring cheaper frenzy than named character: Tullaris

I am still thinking how CoB will behave in 5 wide unit with FCG? It will be placed in second rank giving 1 supporting attack?

//edit:
with abillity to make a move (only if DH is alive) in case of making charge to make use of impact hits?

Intersting question. Im not sure about the rules of a Chariot inside of units.

[Calisson]

Chariot must be in centre of front of unit.
If command group goes behind, so be it: AB > BRB.

[Enkiel]

Chariot must be in centre of front of unit.
If command group goes behind, so be it: AB > BRB.

Ogre style!

[Jvh792]

Have they FAQ'd the cauldron's affect on shooting?

[Dalamar]

The book was officially released yesterday, it will take some time before an FAQ

[HERO]

The book was officially released yesterday, it will take some time before an FAQ

High Elves still haven't received theirs

[Bounce]

If it has to go in the middle I would also be rather concerned about my unit getting flanked. This is particularly an issue when they have frenzy.
Re rolls to wound is good for witch elves but extra attack is good for Executioners.

It isn't that the cauldron has less attacks it is that it has the same number of attacks for a lot more points that concerns me. For 300 points I could take another horde of 30 witches instead. Would really need to play test this out a bit to be honest though.

[HERO]

After playing 5 games without the Cauldron, I honestly don't think we need it.

It suffers greatly from the too many eggs in one basket syndrome for it to be effective. If you bring the Cauldron, you want to bring more WE, then put stuff on your Death Hag. The unit gets bigger, so does the points, and before you know it, you don't have points for K-Beasts, Shades or other goodies that can do something else. Forget all that, just bring the Witches for Core and call it a day.

[Askador]

I really like the CoB. And not for the 5++ on witches, thats just a side effect.

The reason i like it is for my 29 Exec Horde with Tullaris next to the Witches.

And thats the reason why i kinda like the Hydra. The Hydra just isnt that good anymore. But it is an ideal offering for shooting and magic.
That gives the Execs and the Witches time to advance to the enemy.

If they are in Close combat without to much losses (Yay to Life Magic) its around 50 S6 Hits on 3+ or 4+ wounding on 2+ (1's reroll) with Deathstrike. Thanks to the CoB Spell.
You just need Harpys, Black Riders and/or Warloks, Shades to clear the way from Chaff.

Yeah i know it will not happen in a Tournament but for normal Games its fun.