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Cauldron and mounts?
http://www.druchii.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=73080
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Author:  Poisonblade [ Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Cauldron and mounts?

I know MP specifically says it doesn't effect mounts, but the Strength of Khaine rule just says models with MP reroll failed wound rolls.

So it looks like mounts should get the benefit?

Apologies if it's already been discussed. I know its basically the same argument as it helping shooting, but I think this is less sketchy since its at least combat.

Author:  Calisson [ Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cauldron and mounts?

Good spot.
Another loophole of that rule.
It sure works for pegasus, CO and steeds.
For monstrous mounts and chariots, the BRB does say it is a single "model", so RAW, Strength of Khaine works on these mounts.
Technically, a scourgerunner would reroll its "to wound" when shooting its harpoon, and even the impact on charge.

Author:  Fr0 [ Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cauldron and mounts?

*Re-read and redacted.

Author:  Dragon9 [ Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cauldron and mounts?

Even if they're treated as a single model, they're still mounts and don't benefit from MP which specifies that it doesn't affect mounts. So no MP on COs, Pegs, Mantis, Dragons, Dark Steeds, Chariots, Scourgerunners, Cauldrons, Shrines, etc. Doing so is rules lawyering at it's worst.

Author:  Calisson [ Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cauldron and mounts?

Dragon9 wrote:
Even if they're treated as a single model, they're still mounts and don't benefit from MP which specifies that it doesn't affect mounts. So no MP on COs, Pegs, Mantis, Dragons, Dark Steeds, Chariots, Scourgerunners, Cauldrons, Shrines, etc. Doing so is rules lawyering at it's worst.
Not at its worst, it can be much worse, trust me!
RAW is clear. It is also clearly a loophole.
I'm sure no opponent would object if anyone houseplays that SoK only applies to attacks (rather than models) benefitting from Murderous Prowess made by models at 6". I would recommend that.
But RAW presently state very clearly otherwise, it is not rule lawyering, it is playing RAW.

Author:  Lysanthyr [ Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cauldron and mounts?

Since I don't have the book yet, I can only base my opinion on what has been written here. From my understanding, SoK states that models WITH the MP rule can reroll all failed rolls to wound. If the MP rule states that mounts aren't effected and that it only works in CC, then I would have to say that mounts and ranged attacks would not benifit from the SoK.

Author:  Calisson [ Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cauldron and mounts?

Not that simple, Lysanthyr.
The problem is that COB does not boost MP. Instead, it boosts models which have MP, and that is a totally different story.
Mounted models, that's a single model. Chariots, that's a single model. Characters on monsters, that's a single model.
So, RAW, the COB boosts a chariot (including the chariot's shooting), because there is a crewmember with MP. The COB boosts even a dragon as long as the rider is there.
It is a loophole, but that's what rules say.

Author:  Dragon9 [ Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cauldron and mounts?

Again, it very clearly states mounts do not benefit, therefore any mount will not benefit from SoK regardless of what that mount is. It's not a loophole, it's weaseling around it. I wouldn't even call it RAW unless it meant Rules as Wished. :P

Author:  Calisson [ Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cauldron and mounts?

Wrong reading again. When talking about rules, make sure you read exactly what rules say, not what you believe they say.

Mount do not benefit from MP. Sure. So what? We're not talking about MP, we're talking about SoK.
SoK benefits all models with MP rule. Where does it say that SoK does not benefit mounts? Never. You can check p.47.
A dragonlord is a single model. It has MP rule (on the rider). Therefore, the whole model gets SoK.

Once you understand what RAW really say, then you may discuss about what would be reasonable to play (i.e. SoK should work only for attacks already benefitting from MP - but that would be a reasonable hous rule, not RAW).

Author:  Dragon9 [ Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cauldron and mounts?

But SoK effects models with MP, which the mount does not benefit, ergo, they would not also benefit from SoK. And hey, maybe they'll put out a FAQ that says they can. But until then, it's bad form.

Author:  Poisonblade [ Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cauldron and mounts?

Dragon9 wrote:
But until then, it's bad form.


Yeah, I'd always check with my group/opponent first. It's kinda sketchy.

Right now, I think they get it. Hopefully our FAQ happens soon.

Author:  Calisson [ Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cauldron and mounts?

@ Dragon9
What you say is what should be written, but alas, it is not what is effectively written.
Read again what SoK does.

SoK gives rerolls for models which have MP.
There's nothing in SoK to make any difference for the parts of models which do not have MP.

A model of COK is a single model. It has MP.
A lord on a dragon is a single model. It has MP.

Again, even though this is precisely what rules say, I do not advocate to play that way.

Author:  Nachtlich [ Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cauldron and mounts?

So if I follow correctly... That would mean that Darkshards (RxB's) would also reroll to wound their shooting attacks if within 6" of the CoB?

Author:  Calisson [ Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cauldron and mounts?

What rules say is even better: a single model of the unit within 6" is enough for the whole unit to get the rerolls at shooting.
That's not what I recommend to do, if you don't want to piss off your opponent.

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