The School of the Arcane

[Thraundil]

He said he used a lvl 2 and 1 with light both, as support for the lvl 4... So the banishment would be 2d6 S6 hits where wards are rerolled. So lets math it up. 7 hits is average roll from 2d6,

vs a frostie: T6, so half wounds or 3,5. 2,33 gets through the first ward, but the 1,17 wounds saved must be rerolled, so in total 3,1 wounds. On a bird with what is it, 5 wounds total, I'd say the HE would be pretty scared about that, as a few bolt throwers or a charge by a pegasusmaster would finish it off.

vs a demon prince: T5, so 3+ to wound - but oh wait, its a demon. So its 3d6 hits, averaging 10,5.

7 wounds, subtracting 3 from his 2+ rerollable is 5+ armor save. So three 5+ saves in a row of which the last must be rerolled because its a ward. The first save leaves 4,66 wounds, the reroll of the failed leaves 3,1. Then a ward save leaves 2,06 wounds, but the ~1,04 he saves he must reroll, which adds another 0,7 wounds. In total, a S6 banishment averages 2,76 wounds on a demon prince. Yes, if I was the demon player I'd definitely be worried about that.

[Dalamar]

And that's how psychology of magic works. The potential threat is there, yes and a lot of people will try and avoid the risk, but if you take that risk for a single magic phase, focus on dispelling what's important (the banishment) and survive - you're in an advantageous position now.

Keep in mind that banishment is a magic missile and empire wizards tend to be on foot... if you can't outmaneouver that, then you should make look at solutions other than charging head on.

[Ilderoth]

@ Thraunduil: You beat me to it! I was going to make exactly the same response as you. Banishment scares the hell out of my opponents. I do not even have to kill the daemon prince or frostie, because I also have 2 RBTs and they’ll finish them off – and if not for them than a doombolt will sort things out…

@ Dalamar: Ok. I misunderstood what you mean by a support lore (I thought it was a lore that is best suited to a level 2). No argument here then. Keep in mind, however, that my opponent rarely gets to dispel banishment. As soon as I see a daemon prince (especially the slaanesh or nurgle filth) I pick up 6 dice and IF him out of the way (or 5 and add one from my sacrificial dagger). If I don’t roll double 6 then you have one chance to use your scroll and then I’ll kill him next turn. Even if I don’t roll double 6 the next turn, I normally still have more dice than my opponent and so should roll higher. Last game, for instance, I took off 3 wounds in the first turn with banishment from a daemon prince. Finishing him off was very easy in the next turn and basically guaranteed my victory already. Honestly, I do not know a better way to deal with daemon princes than with banishment. RBTs are too unreliable for my taste.

[Dalamar]

First, IF on 6 dice has only about 25% chance of happening. Your average roll will be 21 + level which is obviously enough but not every roll is average.
Second, if you ccan target the DP with banishment on turn 1 then your opponent is already making mistakes.

Third, banishment is a magic missile so against a proper combat army you're running out of targets by the end of turn 2, turn three if you hold back.

All I'm saying is that placing your strategy on a single spell is a sure way to fail.

[T.D.]

I agree that the Shadow Lore attribute is situational, and as Dalamar said before we used to mostly field characters with different troop types (Sorc on Foot, Pegs, possibly Cauldron). However, with the new Fast Cav rule for Dark Steeds I think that we will se a lot more Sorceresses and Masters on Steeds, and this makes the Lore attribute more easily applicable. As an example, I prefer to run my mounted Sorceress in the Warlock unit to benefit from the Wardsave, but this means they are less prone to making a charge into CC. In both of my recent games, I used Smoke and Mirrors after making a supporting charge to switch her with my nearby BSB (who was among Dark Riders with the Ring of Hotek in the Backfield of the army), benefitting both from the extra combat prowess and from the bonus CR from the BSB. :)

Sweet tactic!

[Ilderoth]

@Dalamar:
You are right: more often than not I won’t roll IF, but the point is that I don’t have to, because as long as I have more power dice than my opponent has dispel dice – which more often than not is the case – I will – again more often than not – be able to force banishment through.

Regarding your second point: if my opponent decides to place his DP more than 34” away, then that is fine because it keeps my troops safe for one more turn. I won’t go into much detail here because the location of the DP depends on terrain and other units as well (for instance, in my game I placed by RBTs in such a way that my opponent felt forced to place his DP far away from them and within 34” of my Level 4).

Your final point is of course valid, but then again, I never disagreed or denied that point to begin with. The point is that banishment gives you 1 tool and a very strong one at that, but the lore of light offers far more extremely useful spells. The real question here, I think, is more whether or not you are willing to spend 160 additional points on magic (2 extra sorceresses). This, again, depends on personal preferences regarding the list you wish to play. In my case, I usually run 4 RBTs if I play shadow or death magic. But if I play lore of light, I feel I only need 2 RBTs (after all, I have banishment and one or more burning gazes). This means that I only pay 20 to 55 points extra for the sorceresses. Choices, choices…

[Thraundil]

While I agree with Dalamars point that banishment is not guaranteed every turn... Thought example; 9 PD vs 6 DD. Max to cast is 6, he can chuck his 6 DD at the banishment and then its just about who rolls better. Of course this gives you a 100% free 3dice cast, which if he stops it he is stupid. But especially on low winds of magic phases, like 7 to 4 or similar, theres no chance to stop banishment unless you roll super poorly with your 6 dice or he IF dispels.

I will, however, not agree with your quite hostile approach at your replies to the lore of light being a viable DE choice... Ilderoth says he bunkers his wizards and uses lore of light as a tool vs many things. You say "its easy to prevent by your opponent, so its a bad tactic, and also it wont work some of the time". Firstmost: NOTHING works 100% of the time. You always base your game plan on chance. You just make sure to stack the chance as much in your favour as you can. Secondmost: nowhere did he say it was his only tool. I am sure his army does not consist of S3 melee troops, and then a banishment spell. He merely points out that banishment, with the right support (and many lists feature scroll caddy anyway!), can be very useful. Third, if the demon wins turn 1, its feasible enough to think that you might get to banish him in turn 1... In addition, 'forcing' the opponent to try to dodge this "completely irellevant" spell, can be a massive factor in deployment and movement alike.

Basically; all magic is a chance to do something. Sometimes, winds of magic gives small amounts of dice which is good since you can get your one big spell off. Sometimes it blows plentiful for both, which means you probably only get a smaller hex or similar off. Light coven does not "rely on banishment to come through in every magic phase in every game". Light coven has a strong magic missile, and a lot of strong support spells that make our already strong close combat units monsters, that make our vulnerable-to-firepower units better protected, that controls opponent movement phases. Add to this that all light spells are super easy to cast, and that our warlocks already have the combat hex and another magic missile, what do we need? Horde clearer spells? Please, we have units capable of dishing out horrible damage to typical hordes ("low" T, low AS). Dark elves need high S and battlefield control. Light gives this. Other lores give this as well, but light coven is a perfectly fine tactic.

[Dalamar]

Finally Lore of Death is up. go forth and read!

[T.D.]

Finally Lore of Death is up. go forth and read!

In the opening post of this thread? If so, I cannot see it.

[Blackphantom]

Finally Lore of Death is up. go forth and read!

In the opening post of this thread? If so, I cannot see it.

see previous post

I ran out of character limit in the original post! (which I also found out is 60,000!)
Two new lores available for viewing, Heavens and Shadow.

Enjoy!

so look at the 3'd page... :-)

@Dalamar, maybe you should edit your 2nd post on the first page so what doesn't fit in the opening post is in that one...

[Dalamar]

What blackphantom said.

Also since I see no way to rearrange order of posts I'm going to create a new thread and merge them together to preserve comments when I have a minute.

[Calisson]

since I see no way to rearrange order of posts I'm going to create a new thread and merge them together to preserve comments when I have a minute.

No need.
I deleted the posts between your first and your second post in this thread. Now you only need to edit your second post.
Quoted the deleted posts in the new third post.

[Amboadine]

Excellent write up, thank you. Some insights I had not considered across the whole series of lores.
Certain to use one or two of these tricks soon.

[marcopollo]

Is there a problem with warlocks and a wizard with soulblight? The way I read it, the wizard cannot accept it if it is rolled because, that would mean that the spell is known more than once, and it is not a sig spell. I would guess that the wizard cannot take it but that the warlocks can have two units that know it.

[Dalamar]

The simplest way to explain it is that if a wizard has no choice in spells (like warlocks) those spells don't count against the maximum of 1 of each spell.

So theoretically you can have two units of warlocks and a death sorceress for a maximum of 3 soulblights in a single army.

[Rkhatzar]

does heaven wind spell combo with light magic's net of a?

[Dragon9]

I prefer to run my mounted Sorceress in the Warlock unit to benefit from the Wardsave,

Wait, what? What ward save?

[Amboadine]

The warlocks ward save combined with characters in units rules. The sorceress doesn't directly inherit a ward save.

[Dragon9]

Ok, you mean like a MR save, etc. Makes more sense now.

[MangoPunch]

Dalamar,

I regularly come back to this post as a reference - both to think about using a specific lore in a game, and thinking about what lore(s) work best for my army. This is a great resource. Thank you for taking the time to put it together .

-JGB

[Dalamar]

I should probably get back to it and review it, update here and there as I gain more experience in the odd lores of magic we didn't use to have access to (I'm finding life surprisingly good for my current list).

I should also probably get back to reviewing enemy lores too.

[marcopollo]

Agreed. I played a life mage against wooodies recently. Surprisingly useful and effective. Will run it again soon.

[Lord Drakon]

Dalamar, your arcane school convinced me to field a supreme sorceress again. Thanks for the good write up !

[Dalamar]

I've been trying to write a list without one recently... and I just can't bring myself to pass on the options that a level 4 wizard brings. Regardless of lore.
You just need to make sure that your choice of lore compliments your army (or your army compliments your choice of lore). As an example, some initial thoughts I've been having.

Dark - Offensive, MSU style (not necessarly full MSU, but an army that will outnumber the enemy unit for unit) list.
Death - Avoidance list
Life - Two Towers and/or Monster mash (though Dark would do just fine with monsters), where keeping your single expensive models is very important.
Heavens - Defensive shooting list
Light - Monster Mash (imagine multiple monsters, all with ASF and WS10/I10... I'll leave you with that mental image)

etc.

[Lord Drakon]

I like to hear your opinion which magic would make my combat 'monster' list stronger. After reading this I directly thought about dark magic and shroud, but maybe you have a better insight

http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=75090

BTW, that light lore sounds indeed very very good.
And provides the - 1 to hit for all models 12"