Sorceress on a dragon

[Dreadlegions]

Have you ever tried it?

If you were going to run it, how would you tailor your items and list?

[Bigboar]

really don't like the combination: we usually want the dragon to be in cloce combat as soon as possible, while we want the sorceress to be as far as possible from melee, just to be in range for her spells (12-24").
so when I use the dragon I want a 1+4++ dreadlord on it, for the sorceress I like the dark steed (to play offensive) or on feet in the corner of a big unit.

[Askador]

Have you ever tried it?

If you were going to run it, how would you tailor your items and list?

Thats 300 points for almost no Benefits. The only way it could work is with Black Amulett or something. With some luck she could kill an enemy Charakter in a Challenge.

[Haagrum]

Have you ever tried it?

If you were going to run it, how would you tailor your items and list?

Haven't tried it yet, but it runs into some substantial problems. Black Dragons really need to be in close combat for maximum value, while a Sorceress needs to avoid combat wherever possible. Unlike a Dark Pegasus, the two components of the model can be killed separately, and the Sorceress doesn't get T4 out of it. Certain armies will just snipe her off the back of the Dragon if you leave her in the open field. For most intended battlefield roles, we have better and less expensive options. If you want a more combat-oriented Sorceress, you may as well take Morathi.

As far as positives go, a Black Dragon is resilient against most non-cannon shooting. The Sorceress needs a ward save, possibly even the Cloak of Twilight if you're staying back from combat, but she can avoid most unpleasant combats. People tend not to use breath weapons as template attacks, but a Sorceress on Black Dragon can put out some serious ranged damage (particularly if you give her the Black Dragon Egg). With the hitting power of a Black Dragon behind her, she can wreck an artillery line (if she can get to it) and destroy chaff/flanking units, while also setting up for combination/flank charges on enemy units. Sending her into a ranked-up unit is asking for trouble, as she'll just get challenged out, and although the Dragon's attacks should kill most challengers, you won't get maximum impact and will likely have to face a reforming enemy next turn.

If you're looking to get into combat quickly, I'd take one of the Lores of Beasts, Life or Dark Magic and then use Black Amulet, Warrior Bane, Potion of Foolhardiness and a Dispel Scroll/Tome of Furion, or the Talisman of Preservation, Warrior Bane and a Black Dragon Egg. If you're going to hang back, you'll want a strong offensive lore and defensive equipment - the Cloak of Twilight or Talisman of Preservation should be enough, and you can fill out the equipment with an Arcane Item of your choice.

Ultimately, it depends on how you want to play. It's not optimal, but it can work. It won't make its points back, but that's seldom the point of using a Dragon, and it means that with the right items and spells, you can do present a ranged and close combat threat.

Also, in Storm of Magic, it's a brutal combination.

[Dalamar]

I run a dragon sorceress often and it's awesome

[Diobarach]

Fencer's blades can help minimize incoming hits but it's 35 points, a pretty heft investment but if you want to take advantage of your dragon's combat abilities it might be worth it. If you take lore of beast and cast savage beast on your sorceress, she would have 5 str 6 attacks, hitting on 3s most likely. That's not too bad, still pretty risky.

[Dalamar]

Lore of life is a good choice, keeps the dragon alive and even harder to kill.

[Bigboar]

you can't use fencer's blade nounted. anyway in my experience ws10 doesen't keep you alive for long.
still i see not a reson to mount Her on a dragon, she can cast and stay safe from a nearby horse.. even a mundane lord is better than her.

[Watchmaster]

I run a dragon sorceress often and it's awesome

? Could you elaborate a bit more? What other lores/gear have you tried, and how do you play it to avoid the disadvantages already mentioned?

[Diobarach]

you can't use fencer's blade nounted. anyway in my experience ws10 doesen't keep you alive for long.
still i see not a reson to mount Her on a dragon, she can cast and stay safe from a nearby horse.. even a mundane lord is better than her.

Are you sure about that? I see that extra hand weapons can't be used mounted, but Fencer's blades are classed as paired weapons. I haven't see a rule that forbids them being used on a mounted. Morathi (and Hellebron if on manticore) have paired weapons on a mount, unless the fact that they are special characters makes a difference.

[Phierlihy]

A model would get WS10 if mounted and wielding Fencer's Blades but would not benefit from having an additional hand weapon.

[Haagrum]

Paired Weapons are not the same as additional hand weapons.

Additional hand weapons explicitly only provide an extra attack to a model on foot.

In contrast, Paired Weapons are dealt with in the magic items section of the BRB and give the bearer an extra attack under their own rules, possibly because they're invariably magic weapons.

[Dalamar]

Back in the old book I liked to use the sorceress with Whip of Agony for that extra attack and S5. Sadly now the option is not there.

So, toying around with ideas I figured this will be the best build (and right after buckeye battles in July it will become the first choice in my new list):
Sorceress
Level 4 Life (Regeneration for the dragon - awesome, T10 dragon - awesome, 2+ immunity to miscast (and by extension to losing the entire model to a bad roll) - awesome, bringing back wounds on the dragon - awesome, extra 2d6 hits in combat (to offset sorceress' lack of combat ability) - awesome, That leaves three spells which are universally good, not specific to a dragon. Beasts lore could also be an option but it won't help the dragon, just the rider)
Black Amulet (riding a dragon, you will get challenged. Being a measly T3 wizard, the attacks will likely be directed at the character (especially if dragon happens to be T10 at the moment)
Sword of Anti-Heroes (Dragon itself will be plenty to break through units, this enables it to charge death star units to support your combat blocks) or Crown of Command (nothing sucks more than having your 600+ points model flee from combat)
remaining 10/5 points for whatever.
For Sword option I'd say Ironcurse Icon. 6++ against cannons is better than nothing to keep the dragon alive.
For Crown there are only 5 points left and it won't hurt giving the character a cheap magic weapon just for the hell of it.

[Phierlihy]

That's wonderfully clever Dalamar. I like it!

[Watchmaster]

Mmmm. Buy kit. Magnetize riders. Profit! Thanks for the insight, guys; this looks fun.

After playing around with this idea for a bit, I'd be tempted to take Black Amulet and Other Tricksters Shard, myself. The sword seems like a marginal bonus at best, but the shard will help the beast's attacks as well as the amulet effect, and those are where I see most of the damage coming from. I face a lot of Shield of Saphery shenanigans though, so YMMV. It also frees up a spot for a scroll/book of some persuasion.

Life aside, I think Dark magic might be a good alternative. WoP, of course, but also Soul Stealer to boost her wounds up.

[Gidean]

Does the sniper rule let waystalkers pick her over the dragon or is it one model that must be randomized?

[Watchmaster]

The BRB Sniper rule lets you shoot the rider of a monster. I don't know what waystalkers can do as I haven't faced the new WE book.

[Dalamar]

Yeah, waystalkers can snipe a rider but even with multishot they will put less tha. 1 wound on a 4++ character per turn.

[Gidean]

Yeah, waystalkers can snipe a rider but even with multishot they will put less tha. 1 wound on a 4++ character per turn.

Thought you designed a WE army to take out a mage per turn?

[Dalamar]

Yes, level 2 support wizard that tends to have no ward save. Generally any hero will die fast to wood elves, lords have some inbuilt resilience,

[Phierlihy]

We were just discussing this on my own local board and I don't think it works like that.

The rules for the Sniper special rule read "a model with the Sniper special rule can make a special Sniper shot instead of shooting normally. A sniper's shot suffers an additional -1 To Hit penalty, in addition to any other modifiers, but can be aimed with great precision."

When a Waystalker shoots normally, he uses the 'Hawk-eyed Archer' rule. However the Sniper special rule reads *instead of shooting normally, do this instead*. My own inturrpretation says they can make a ST3 AP shot with Sniper or they can use their Hawk-eyed Archer rule. So they might plink a wound off an unarmored elf but tougher characters are going to ignore them.

There's supposedly a raging debate about it over on asrai.org.

[Gidean]

Yes, level 2 support wizard that tends to have no ward save. Generally any hero will die fast to wood elves, lords have some inbuilt resilience,

Not to stray off topic but I was under the impression you thought to slay all the enemy mages? The points cost for two waystalkers do not seem to be justified in taking out a single level 2 or 1. Most people do not include more than one mage besides the level 4. So if I get you to buy TWO waystalkers to take out my scroll caddy then I think I am ahead in the trade-offs. In other words if you bought another mage instead I think your damage output is greater or could be. I think you would be better served in the long run by two Branchwraiths that you can buy for 15 points cheaper.

[AWdeV]

Hello, I really like the life-sorceress on a dragon idea but I was wondering at what size game this becomes a good idea. How many points are we looking at here, 3000?

[Dalamar]

2500. You can squeeze her in at 2400 I suppose.

[AWdeV]

Sweeeeeeeet. Thanks man!