Dark Elves & Magic (using the various Lores)

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Jabroniville
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Dark Elves & Magic (using the various Lores)

Post by Jabroniville »

DARK ELVES AND MAGIC

So with the new edition basically sliding in the fact that Dark Elves can now use ANY of the eight Schools of Magic (I'm not specifically sure WHY, as some are a bit non-fluffy for us, but I guess it makes sense that we'd be the equals of the High Elves a bit. I choose to see the Lore of Life as us giving our units horrible Slaanesh-like mutations or something to make it fit :)), I figured I'd have to take a look at what we can pull off now by assessing each school, re: Uses for our army. I post it up here to help others out, and to also get some ideas from other players.

Being Dark Elves gives us a lot of options, and quite a few bonuses. Our Sorceresses can EASILY cast the higher-casting-value spells using the Sacrificial Dagger (which is still good, if less useful than before), with less risk of a miscast (if you see a "6" in your first roll, maybe just leave it alone), meaning that those expensive Unit-Killers are easier to get off. Lore of Dark Magic is good and all, but The Lore of Life is considered one of the top-tier Lores of this edition for good reason- all those buffs are GREAT for a game that's based around large units fighting each other.

I won't describe what each spell does (seems iffy for Copywrite), since we should all have the rulebook or at least those sweet Magic Cards :).


LORE OF FIRE:
General Purpose: BLOWING STUFF UP!
Advantages: Most of the Lore of Fire is far-reaching, and does direct damage. SUPER cheap spells to cast (you could 2-dice most things at Level 4). Ideal against High-Damage, Low-Toughness Armies (like High Elves and, um, us. Orcs' low armour makes them vulnerable too)
Disadvantages: All of it's at Strength 4, with no boosts for going higher. Most can't be used in combat.

Lore Attribute: +D3 if you use multiple blasts on the same foe. Sort of useful when you're just divebombing a single unit, but not a huge deal.
Signature Spell: Fireball- EXTREMELY cheap to cast and the most standard Magic Missile in the game. You can even boost it cheaply (plus a THIRD level at +18). This could guarantee you one solid major blast, even if you roll poorly for spells.

1) Cascading Fire-Cloak: A really good augment to cast into combat, AND very cheap to cast. Alas, can only be used on a Mage's own unit, so you have to be vulnerable to use it.
2) Flaming Sword of Rhuin: Wasn't this a damaging weapon in the old edition? Nowadays, it's a +1 to Wound buff, which can be VERY handy with certain units (lower-Strength Black Guard, Witch Elves, Darkshards), which can all struggle to damage higher-tier foes. ESPECIALLY thanks to Murderous Prowess.
3) The Burning Head: Basically a "Line Area Effect" damage spell of reasonable length. Works best on a flank, so a Pegasus Sorceress would be best. Still a cheap thing, and can be good for hurting a deeply-ranked unit in front of you. AND it always causes Panic tests if it wounds- VERY handy if you can hit multiple units, allowing you to demolish an entire flank!
4) Piercing Bolts of Burning: Only really good against deeply-ranked units. Not a big fan.
5) Fulminating Flame Cage: A NASTY spell that can mess up an enemy that's trying to get into your range and threaten you. They're not going to want to move with this on them.
6) Flame Storm: A good ol' Template Damage spell at S4. Not bad, and pretty easy to cast.

LORE OF BEASTS:
General Purpose: Buffs & Hexes, aiding your army
Advantages: Arguably the best Signature Spell in the game, plus a ton of great hexes & buffs, which have become a MAJOR factor in modern Warhammer.
Disadvantages: Low-tier damaging stuff.

Lore Attribute: Easier to cast on monster-y things, but only by a bit. Not a huge thing, especially since it doesn't increase your casting total (and thus dispel-ability)
Signature Spell: Wyssan's Wildform- An easily-casted boost to an ENTIRE UNIT'S STRENGTH AND TOUGHNESS? This counter-acts the ONE huge weakness of an Elf army (Toughness), and can turn a route into a victorious rampage. Low-range, but can be casted higher. Make no mistake- THIS is the reason to take this Lore!

1) The Flock of Doom: Kind of a poor Magic Missile- high range but low Strength 2D6 attacks.
2) Pann's Impenetrable Pelt: A +3 Toughness boost to any character within 12" is a GREAT boost (especially combined with the Signature), though has a lower-range of effect unless you boost it.
3) The Amber Spear: Basically a 24" Bolt Thrower that doesn't need to roll to hit- yes please. The only way to really hurt stuff with this Lore. Also good for axing Monsters (especially if you use the dangerous high-tier boost for Strength 10).
4) The Curse of Anraheir: A -1 Hex to hit is a REALLY big deal, and can turn a combat around, especially since we already have great WS in our army.
5) The Savage Beast of Horros: A REALLY great boost to Strength & Toughness for one character, and can be boosted for everyone close by. Not too expensive, either!
6) Transformation of Kadon: Turns you into a Monster, but with a STEEP points-cost. Very risky, but MAN will that turn a battle around and go completely unexpected by your opponent! I've never seen this at work, sadly.

LORE OF METAL:
General Purpose: Hurting Highly-Armoured Troops
Advantages: Killing Bretonnians, Chaos & Dwarfs.
Disadvantages: Many spells work less well against Elves (save Cavalry), Ogres, Skaven, Orcs & Daemons, among other lower-Armoured armies and troops. Still pretty good with certain spells, though.

Lore Attribute: Works better on higher-tiered armour, making them a nightmare for Knights.
Signature Spell: Searing Doom- Standard Magic Missile, with a VERY expensive 2D6 Boost.

1) Plague of Rust: -1 to their Armour for the rest of the game could be VERY nasty.
2) Enchanted Blades of Aiban: +1 to Hit and everything becomes Armour Piercing & Magical! Very good, and cheap-ish.
3) Glittering Robe: A temporary 5+ Scaly Skin save can be handy for our lightweight troops, especially if you boost it to all units within 12"!
4) Gehenna's Golden Hounds: A pretty good Character Killer, though he gets a Look Out Sir against it. Lower reach in the basic version, but the bigger one is still pretty cheap at 12+.
5) Transmutation of Lead: A Hex, though dropping WS by 1 usually isn't that big of a deal. Dropping BS is another thing, plus the armour. A bit pricey.
6) Final Transmutation: One of the big Unit Killers of the game, with a 33% chance of straight-up wiping out each model in a unit! VERY dangerous for Hording troops.

LORE OF LIGHT:
General Purpose: Anti-Evil Army stuff
Advantages: Hurts Daemons & Undead.
Disadvantages: Not that kill-y otherwise, with some situational buffs that are harder to use.

Lore Attribute: Boosts the number of D6 to the hits on Undead & Daemons.
Signature Spell: Shem's Burning Gaze- Standard Magic Missile, but the expensive boosted version is Strength 6!

1) Pha's Protection: A good protective boost (-1 to Hit that unit), especially for our lightweight guys.
2) The Speed of Light: A good augment that can highly-benefit us against High Elves with higher Initiative, or enemy characters. Though we're high enough at WS & Init. scores to mostly not need this.
3) Light of Battle: A great augment for Leadership, especially if you REALLY need to not flee from something that turn.
4) Net of Amyntok: A good hex that can really aggravate low-Strength units, and hurt them, too.
5) Banishment: A good Magic Missile with a weird effect that's hard to utilize (how many other Wizards are gonna know the Lore of Light within that range?). Also good against enemies with lots of Ward Saves- this is your Daemon Killer right here.
6) Birona's Timewarp: Basically makes you a high-Movement, high-Attack super-augmented unit (with a boost that's a BIT too expensive). This acts like a one-turn Cauldron of Blood (sort of), and can turn Black Guard into 3-Attack elites with a 2D6+10" charge range!

LORE OF LIFE:
General Purpose: Augment Spells
Advantages: The best buffs you can get, and can turn entire combats around by getting these off. Lizardmen players swore by this when we could get Loremaster on any Lore.
Disadvantages: Not a lot of damaging stuff.

Lore Attribute: Restores a single Wound to any friendly model within 12". This seems pretty clearly to be the best Lore Attribute in the game. I mean, that makes Challenges, War Machines & other things a lot easier to take.
Signature Spell: Earth Blood- Temporary Regeneration (5+) is great, and not that expensive!

1) Awakening of the Wood: Poorer Magic Missile, but hurts things in Woods (that never happens to me) a lot more.
2) Flesh to Stone: +2 Toughness buff, which is GREAT.
3) Throne of Vines: Buffs every OTHER potential spell in the lore, making this a high-tier must-have. Also avoids Miscasts, as if it needs to get BETTER. Flesh to Stone at +4 is particularly amazing.
4) Shield of Thorns: 2D6 weak attacks on any enemy in base contact, but with a very good range. Boosted with the Vines, naturally.
5) Regrowth: Yeah, why NOT gain the Undead-like ability to resurrect dead troops? With the Lore Attribute, this can render characters & monsters VERY difficult to kill as well. Useful for any army in the game, especially ours with its low survivability chances.
6) The Dwellers Below: Another fantastic Unit Killer, especially against Low-Strength Hordes ("Strength Test or Die" is LETHAL). Lower-range and EXPENSIVE to cast, though, especially with a longer-reaching Boost.

LORE OF HEAVENS:
General Purpose: Blasting away
Advantages: Good against Fliers.
Disadvantages: Poorer than Fire Magic for shooting stuff. Probably the weakest Lore in the game, since it has fewer match-winning buffs and specializes in Damaging spells, which are some of the least-effective in a Hording atmosphere.

Lore Attribute: Does a LOT more damage to Fliers. Against High Elves this can be nasty as hell, because they have so many Flying units.
Signature Spell: Iceshard Blizzard- Good hex spell and very cheap, allowing you to handle high-WS or BS troops.

1) Harmonic Convergence: A good re-roll-inspiring augment, and cheap to cast.
2) Wind Blast: In a game based around moving units around, something that effects movement is a good thing, though it won't push them far more of the time. Good if you're castling up. Plus it's a low-Strength Magic Missile.
3) Curse of the Midnight Wind: A far-reaching hex that makes them re-roll 6s. Not BAD, but not that great.
4) Urannon's Thunderbolt: A good high-Strength Magic Missile.
5) Comet of Casandora: One of the weirder spells around- it can do no damage by shooting off too early or too late, it could damage your own guys, or it could do a TON of damage with a super-hit. On a high-Movement enemy, it's not that great, so it works best on Castles.
6) Chain Lightning: A high-Strength direct damage thing that could potentially hit a TON of units if you roll 3+ after damage is done. Expensive, but could do a LOT of damage.

LORE OF SHADOW:
General Purpose: Buffs & Debuffs
Advantages: Really good at debuffing the enemy, something our army surely loves to see happen. Infamous to lower-Initiative armies (Orcs, Ogres, Lizardmen, Dwarfs). Can really mess up the higher-stat enemies as well (like Monsters & Chaos).
Disadvantages: Doesn't do damage (usually), hard to get the "MUST HAVE" spells, which are pricey and risky.

Lore Attribute: You can swap out characters with successful casting. Doesn't seem that great, but it's saved me once before, so I kinda like it. Throws the enemy off, y'know?
Signature Spell: Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma- A great far-reaching (48"!) hex that affects multiple stats on a still-cheapish 10+, though none we're not already better than the opponent in most of the time.

1) Steed of Shadows: Can move your characters around very efficiently, making single models much more effective.
2) The Enfeebling Foe: Huge Strength debuff.
3) The Withering: Huge Toughness debuff.
4) The Penumbral Pendulum: Like the Burning Head spell, but MUCH better, hitting at longer randomized range with a Strength 10 hit, but only on Initiative tests. So don't try it on High Elves, but DO try it against Lizardmen, Orcs, Ogres and Dwarfs! Like Burning Head, works best on faster Wizards that can hit on the flanks.
5) Pit of Shades: The infamous low-Initiative-Army hater (Lizardmen HATE this spell- their Slann Mage Priest represents a HUGE number of points and army effects in one low-Initiative character). Expensive, but the ultimate terror against certain armies.
6) Okkam's Mindrazor: Using Leadership instead of Strength to wound is REALLY great for our high-LD troops. Expensive as hell, but turns us into an unyielding terror (you'd only fail to wound on a "1", and that's the one thing we get to re-roll!), re-rolling basically every failed anything.

LORE OF DEATH:
General Purpose: Character Killing & Debuffs.
Advantages: GREAT at injuring enemy Characters.
Disadvantages: Usually only affects one guy at a time.

Lore Attribute: You can easily boost your power pool by successfully killing models.
Signature Spell: Spirit Leech- Lower-range (non-boosted), and forces a Leadership test against the subject- good for our High-LD types.

1) Aspect of the Dreadknight: Fear Augment, and VERY cheap. Even causing Terror isn't that expensive (9+), which is MUCH better than Fear, and can send off low-LD troops easily.
2) The Caress of Laniph: A good direct damage thing ideal for lower-Strength, high-Toughness enemy models, and only within 12". Not... a LOT of targets there.
3) Soulblight: Basically a reverse Wyssan's Wildform, making our enemies EXTRA vulnerable, and makes it a lot harder for them to hurt us- a MAJOR boost.
4) Doom and Darkness: -3 Leadership debuff with not-bad range. Quite good with our Terror-causing models, and has a VERY nasty bit of potential with the Bloodwrack Shrine and/or the Kharibdyss.
5) The Fate of Bjuna: Like Caress, but for Toughness, making it a great Elf-Killer. Still terrible range, but MUCH more likely to wound (a 2+), and causes Stupidity.
6) The Purple Sun of Xereus: Another infamous Unit-Killer, especially for the same Low-Initiative troops that Lore of Shadows kills. And this one can move it's way across THIRTY INCHES at it's peak (Artillery Dice times 3) on a template! Pricey to cast, though.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Lorddrittz
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Re: Dark Elves & Magic (using the various Lores)

Post by Lorddrittz »

Just one comment re; Lore of Metal.

You mention it sucks vs. Elves, Ogres, Orcs and Daemons.

I have to disagree with this.

Final Transmutation is good vs. all these bar the Ogres, even then it can wound big blocks.

Plague of Rust good vs. all of these and stacks with Transmutation to Lead.

Enchanted Blades useful vs. all, also Ethereal and WE's.

Glittering Robes if you do the 12" bubble vs. shooty lists HE's & WE's.

Searing Doom and Golden hounds while not optimal vs. the lists mentioned will still be useful
Ogres vs. Mournfangs
HE's vs. Silverhelms,
Orcs vs. Chariots, Black Orcs

not very useful vs. Daemons.
Dark Elf Battles

Win/Draw/Loss
10 : 1 : 4 7th Ed Codex
Jabroniville
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Re: Dark Elves & Magic (using the various Lores)

Post by Jabroniville »

Hm, good points on a bit of that. Reducing the weak Armour of those armies to even LESS is pretty good, making a -1 Armour Save spell pretty decent. it's just that many of the damaging spells (a key part of the Lore Attribute) is less effective against weakly-armoured troops, making it more specialized. I guess they're just "standard good stuff" against most armies, but ESPECIALLY good against heavily-armoured foes.
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Re: Dark Elves & Magic (using the various Lores)

Post by mathew_murder »

I'm a beginner so i could be wrong but for me lore of heavens (lore of the underworld) looks like one of if not the best fit for a gunline army. (for those elves who like to stand back and savour the visions of their foes dying slowly in agonizing pain.)

it has good range and primarily useful spells for an army that wants to shoot and stay out of combat and is a little bit lacking in the s6 shots department(even with those 4 RBT'S!)
every unit within 12" re-rolling ones to hit and wound with their bolts, in combat and for their armour saves is very useful, doing the opposite with midnight wind can be useful to reduce armour saves and enemy shooter accuracy early on and casting it on all units with 12" when the enemy gets really close should help your gunline survive a bit better. multiple s6 hits are good, doing that to multiple units is even better, dropping a marker just outside 12" from your gunline where the enemy was planning to march most of its best force on turn 1 or 2 and a bit of luck could be devastating, either way it will make your enemy worry. and it cannot be dispelled once cast. and wind blast is obviously useful to a shooting army, being able to push units away can mean one less priority target to have to shoot down. if you got the more powerful wind blast off 5 times in 5 turns against a unit of marching chaos warriors you would on average push them back 27" which is enough to keep them out of charge range at the end of turn 5, i know this is an extreme example but it illustrates my point.
mathew_murder
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Re: Dark Elves & Magic (using the various Lores)

Post by mathew_murder »

i should mention that this is in conjunction with 2 doomfire warlock units and the sorceress is a lvl4 with sacrificial dagger and a unit of spearmen to offer to the gods of the underworld.
idk if i would feel the same about heavens without doombolt and soulblight in the mix.
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Zenith
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Re: Dark Elves & Magic (using the various Lores)

Post by Zenith »

Death magic vagueness.

What happens if a Supreme sorceress, casts the default spell of the death lore. Targets an enemy (insert random target)
And the target is within a 12 ich radius of their general.

Who's LD is being used?
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Liquidedust
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Re: Dark Elves & Magic (using the various Lores)

Post by Liquidedust »

Zenith wrote:Death magic vagueness.

What happens if a Supreme sorceress, casts the default spell of the death lore. Targets an enemy (insert random target)
And the target is within a 12 ich radius of their general.

Who's LD is being used?


Its in the FAQ, and yes they get to use Inspiring Presence.

My Hobby Thread

Stats since I started playing again in 2013
W/L/D
Total: 16/21/1
vs. Demons: 0/2/0
vs. Dwarfs: 1/2/0
vs. Empire: 2/4/0
vs. High Elves: 0/4/0
vs. Lizardmen: 3/0/0
vs. Orcs & Goblins: 3/0/1
vs. Ogres: 1/0/0
vs. Skaven: 4/4/0
vs. Tomb Kings: 0/1/0
vs. Warriors of Chaos: 0/3/0
vs. Wood Elves: 2/1/0
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Zenith
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Re: Dark Elves & Magic (using the various Lores)

Post by Zenith »

Liquidedust wrote:
Zenith wrote:Death magic vagueness.

What happens if a Supreme sorceress, casts the default spell of the death lore. Targets an enemy (insert random target)
And the target is within a 12 ich radius of their general.

Who's LD is being used?


Its in the FAQ, and yes they get to use Inspiring Presence.



But that FAQ also says the following:


Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on
your unmodified Leadership. What is your unmodified Leadership?
(p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership
characteristic in the unit. So the Leadership from any
characters in the unit itself (but not from outside the unit, from
Inspiring Presence for example) with a higher Leadership can
be used unless specifically stated otherwise.
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Re: Dark Elves & Magic (using the various Lores)

Post by Burizan »

I've had the whole spirit leech debate to death and examined it in insane detail, coming to the following conclusion:

I believe the above is the intended correct usage of unmodified Ld as this is distinctly different from Ld.

The other FAQ Inspiring Presence entry mentions Spirit Leech specifically, but is actually talking about Ld. It also references Okkams (literally adjacent), so my theory is the designers were looking for the word "Leadership" so they could give example spells and they glossed over the "unmodified" part and accidentally gave a crappy example. As the most recent FAQ it's understandable people will give it higher weighting, but it screams human error.

Since getting screwed in a tournament by a nice but dim adjudicator I take Ld10 more so anybody who claims that it's meant to work in this way can have what I see as RAW abuse thrown right back at them.
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Re: Dark Elves & Magic (using the various Lores)

Post by Rkhatzar »

how does work dark magic attribute when casting pow or black horror?
Also, does light combo nice with CO? They have I2, low WS, 2A - can benifit from +1A from Time Warp, +1S from PoW or Light buff... nice. :) I'm going to try a lot CO and LD test spell will be nice.

Is maximum real M capped at 10?
So warp only adds +3M on COC?
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