Two Towers, is the shrine worth it?

[Vietnow]

I am a huge fan of running a WE horde + CoB and an Exec horde with BwS. The question I have; Is the Shrine worth its points in executioners?? (14.5 executioners)

Displacing rank and file, the shrine brings......

Impact hits @ S 5 on the charge.
Ld bubble, allowing the unit to be Ld10 with a hero in it.
Avert your gaze/ Stare
3 Ws5 S4 attacks from the Medusa with ASF
2 Ws4 S3(4 on the charge) attacks with ASF
Terror, and therefore immunity to fear/terror
MR1


The execs are better at piercing armor. Even attacking high toughness and low initiative models, the execs are still S6. There are few low initiative, high armor models, which are still subject to killing blow. Essentially, infantry/cavalry characters are the only targets where this will be useful. While they can still be wounded, the killing blow is a rarity and I place little value on it.

The executioners bring 9 more executioner attacks, 12 with frenzy.

If the execs are hitting on 3's, that's likely 6 more wounds a round. Hitting on 4's = 4.5.

I personally feel the shrine is worth taking. There is so much synergy between our units and magic lores, the "little bonuses" a shrine brings can become valuable assets.
-A unit with -1Ld is more likely to fail the fear test it will take every round of combat. This not only guarantees our unit hits on 3's, but that we get hit on 5's.

-Executioners are not ITP, like many of our other troops. By causing terror, they will never be subject to terror or fear.

-Adding a T6 model with 5 wounds may be ignored by your opponent. The may instead focus attacks on the T3 elves, attempting to increase their active combat res. As it displaces so many models, this can allow you to remain in horde formation longer, guaranteeing you more attacks. It also allows you to remain steadfast in further rounds of combat, or combat with the next unit. Also, against any base size of infantry it is likely at least one column MUST attack the shrine. Units with a small frontage may avoid this. I'd rather an empire greatsword horde hit my shrine on 4's, and wound it on 5's than wound my execs on 2's.

-Any spell which lowers initiative will make the unit more vulnerable to the avert your gaze tests.

-Gaze tests and Stare stand and shoot are a deterrent to flying monsters attempting sniping missions on any character you have in the unit. As most have average to low initiative, they may take a wound or 2 from Stare stand and shoot, then our executioners will hit first. If you had a WoC chimera (probably the nastiest flying monster) fly up to a character, say tullaris. The chimera would take 1-2 Stare hits wounding on 2's, then 8 exec attacks(9 w/ champ) and 4 tullaris attacks. (not counting his frenzy. This is all before it attacks, breath weapons, or thunderstomps. Hittin on 3's wounding on 3's That's 4 wounds alone from 9 exec attacks. Likely 1 from stare. The 275pt monster will be half dead, even with regen. Tullaris added to the mix will likely kill it. (50/50) Regular executioners lose the stare stand and shoot, could succumb to fear, as the chim causes terror. If the chim lives to attacks, you'll likely have around 10 dead executioners. That's a large swing in points.

-Any spell which lowers Ld will also work well with the shrine. This is especially true of Shroud of Despair. (The synergy with this spell is absolutely bad ass) Making a unit take 2 fear checks at a minimum of -2Ld, with no inspiring presence or stand your ground, greatly increases the chances of the cumulative effect of Shroud doing something nasty. Granted, some targets of this unit may be ITP. However, if the ITP comes from frenzy...they may not be able to keep it. Fear causing monstrous cav, will be subject to fear as the Shrine causes terror. Demigryphs with WS1 are decidedly less scary. Undead/Daemon units could instead lose an extra model on their break test.

-If outside the range of their general, or if the general is withing the bubble, the Shrine can help prevent simple things such as combat reforms as well. Ld checks are taken more frequently in 8th than in 7th.

I feel the above reasons/effects/possibilities are worth losing 9 executioner attacks. I feel it should be included in most if not all executioner hordes. I know many people already auto take the WE CoB horde, and may not want 2. Different discussion, but I think with small bases and one of, if not the, best movement phases DE can make it work.

These are my thoughts. I think the shrine is worthwhile in such a unit. Please share thoughts/criticism etc.

PS I do not work for GW. I'm not trying to get everyone to buy two of these models.

[Thraundil]

The shrine is a good model. Whether its worth taking for executioners is up to debate, as you illustrates there are a number of strong points. However: a model causing terror that joins a unit that doesnt, does not make the unit immune to fear. I dont think it makes the unit immune to terror, either. It might get a FAQ since models that cause terror generally cant join units. But the executioners themselvse, if in combat with any fear causing models, must take fear checks. IF you give them a DH with witchbrew, that issue is of course solved - without the need for a shrine to be there.

[Vietnow]

You are correct.

[Setomidor]

Very good question, personally I'm running a similar list but without the Shrine. Instead, I run a single unit of 5 knights (as I find that they benefit greatly from the Frenzy spell from the Cauldron).

I think the inclusion of the Shrine can depend a lot on how the troop type rules are interpreted at each venue. Although debated, as it is currently written if considering the FAQ answers for the similar Skaven constructs, joining the Shrine to Executioners would make them Unique (since the Shrine is not a character), and so would make them immune to Stomps and Thunderstomps. I would consider shelling out 175pts for this ability alone, and considering all the pros that you already list in the first post I would then see the Shrine as an auto-include for big Exec hordes.

[Vietnow]

I also think the Shrine is a viable bus for a SS on foot. Another post highlighted this, with a classy picture of an RV. Taking 10-15 Black Guard, with full command, can likely buy you one solid round of combat before your girl gets touched. If you include a master or hag, yes this gets a lil pricey, it will buy you 2 rounds guranteed. Line the BG and shrine up 5 wide, leaving only your hag and champ to accept the first round of hits

Buffed with PoD, or perhaps Wyssyn's, this is a unit which can likely win most combats in the first round. You can only kill the champ once outside of a challenge. This holds their combat resolution at 1. A hag with cry on the other side... they're taking a fear check on -4 due to the shrines terror. (ITP units aside) If the very, very limited frontage can out do a hag + a BG champ with active combat res, you'll be steadfast at Ld 10. 10 BG give you 5 ranks, SS, Hag, guarantee you'll have 5 after the first round. The more likely scenario is the hag and champ may die, but do more than 3 wounds. This plus your static bonuses and T6 on the Shrine, will likely win combat. Your black amulet SS, could also step up and receive a challenge to prevent wounds on the BG.

This combo is spectacular with Shroud of Despair. Between Shroud, WoP, and PoD your opponent will be hard pressed to dispell everything, any one of them can cause a relatively weak unit to become a polarized magnet to anything sent its way. With shroud up, your BG Champ may actually survive, fear test at -5 lol.

However, this type of unit will get decimated by BS shooting and magic missiles. One round of spread shots can ruin your day. If I was an OnG player, I may even target individual bolts at ranks, just to remove steadfast from range. You'd likely have to take multiple look out sirs as well. Thankfully the BG are ItP, ensuring your RV won't run from ranged attacks.

May not be viable outside of larger games, but it could find a place here and there.

[Dragon9]

if considering the FAQ answers for the similar Skaven constructs, joining the Shrine to Executioners would make them Unique (since the Shrine is not a character), and so would make them immune to Stomps and Thunderstomps.

I looked through both the Skaven and BRB FAQs and found no reference to this. Can you point it out?

[Dalamar]

Its in the skaven FAQ about the dreaded 13th spell targeting units with mixed troop types. The answer is that units with multiple troop types of non-character models become of a single troop type "unique" and as such can't be the target of the dreaded 13th spell. This can be easily extrapolated to stomps which can only target infantry units.

So:
Shrine - no stomp
Cauldron with hag - stomp
Cauldron without hag - no stomp

[Enkiel]

can't you target a model with stomp? That's how we play it here.

so if you can target specific model (or model type), no reason you can't stomp the unit around the shrine.

[Dalamar]

No, you stomp a unit as a whole and if the whole unit is not infantry then it can't be stomped.