MSU Corsairs with Handbows

[Zee Deveel]

Using Corsairs like Skinks?

20 S3 AP shots per 10 guys with Quick to Fire seems pretty decent. Get up in their face shoot away, forcing them to charge your cheap Corsair units and thus taking another Stand and Shoot volley to the face and opening them up for a flank charge by a more dangerous unit like a Hydra. After they've already eaten 40 crossbow bolts to the testicles.

Any thoughts?

[Aleksii]

Sounds annoying to me. Meaning sounds good.

I just put together 14 of thease guy's and can't wait to try them with full command + magic standart. If that does not work, I will field them 10 with maybe musician.

[Amboadine]

Skinks have a number of advantages, namely skirmishers and poison. Far better at doing what you suggest. Corsairs have to first get into a position to do what you suggest, not that easy without vanguard.
Just use shades...

[Zee Deveel]

Shades can be easily shot to death though, no?

Also the Corsairs when in range of general and BSB might actually hold for a turn.

[Aleksii]

Also the Corsairs when in range of general and BSB might actually hold for a turn.

That's what I was thinking. Plus AS 4+ and "superior fighting-skills" will help against certain opponents.

[Amboadine]

Shades can be easily shot to death though, no?

Also the Corsairs when in range of general and BSB might actually hold for a turn.

Of course, but 10 corsairs aren't going to take much shooting to take out the game.
Give it a try with both, I think you will find the shades perform better. What you propose is viable certainly. I just think we have better tools at our disposal.

[Clockwork]

Also the Corsairs when in range of general and BSB might actually hold for a turn.

That's what I was thinking. Plus AS 4+ and "superior fighting-skills" will help against certain opponents.

Skins come packing a 5+ armour save and a 6+ parry in combat, too, plus their Cold-blooded. Not to mention that your non-Skirmishing Skink is half the points of a Corsair, and the skirmishing variety not much more.

Don't get me wrong - I think Handbow MSU Corsairs are great - but they don't compare to Skinks largely because the two will serve relatively different roles. Corsairs will be a great clearer of chaff like Skinks, which can also pitch into a fight. Skinks are pure delaying chaff through and through.

Using Corsairs like Skinks?

20 S3 AP shots per 10 guys with Quick to Fire seems pretty decent. Get up in their face shoot away, forcing them to charge your cheap Corsair units and thus taking another Stand and Shoot volley to the face and opening them up for a flank charge by a more dangerous unit like a Hydra. After they've already eaten 40 crossbow bolts to the testicles.

Any thoughts?

Handbows aren't Armour Piercing.

[Zee Deveel]

Ah no AP? That's pretty tragic.

Shame we get no units that can Skirmish and take dual handbows!

[Calisson]

Well, we can, sort of.
A master on DS can vanguard and can get a pair of handbows.

[Underway]

Well in friendly games you could use this unit if you want skirmishing handbows so badly!

[MangoPunch]

...I think you will find the shades perform better. What you propose is viable certainly. I just think we have better tools at our disposal.

Corsairs are core, so there is that.

[Kurze]

Well, we can, sort of.
A master on DS can vanguard and can get a pair of handbows.

I have had some good results with this build. Look out lone wizards!

[Jvh792]

the problem with the corsairs, is that they won't be able to march and shoot.
Also, they aren't AP. Only the crossbows are.
Now, I've used them against skinks in what quickly turned into a firefight game, and they absolutely wrecked the skinks.

[Jvh792]

But all in all, the skinks are WAY more versatile.
Here are a few things skinks can do that corsairs cannot:
march and shoot
free reform
be flak (65-70 points compared to our 120 minimum)
shoot high toughness targets

Now being dark elf, we fight better than most... however, you will find it difficult to whittle down your opponents combat blocks to manageable sizes with S3 no ap shooting with 12" range. You will probably get caught before you get them down to a manageable size.

Just my experience, but everyone's meta is different, and maybe there is the perfect hole for this strategy to work in your meta!

[Zee Deveel]

Yep this is all fair enough, my hopes for this plan fell down when I was informed that handbows aren't AP. Just not gonna do enough damage. Shame!

Makes them fairly pointless really. Either we should have access to a skirmishing unit that can use handbows or handbows should have AP.

[T.D.]

Most enemy core and chaff doesn't have much in the way of armour, so "pointless" is overstating it!

As long as you don't expect too much of them, RHB is a good harassing and MSU unit.

[Jvh792]

I agree ^^
I love small units as chaff cleaners if you need something to fill core. They get way more shots per point than bolt throwers, which are in my opinion our best chaff cleaners.
But if you have a vendetta against rbt, or they don't work in your meta (too many cannons?) the corsairs are an awesome option that fill your core as well. But now that our core is so amazing, it seems less of a problem.

[Clockwork]

But all in all, the skinks are WAY more versatile.
Here are a few things skinks can do that corsairs cannot:
march and shoot
free reform
be flak (65-70 points compared to our 120 minimum)
shoot high toughness targets

Now being dark elf, we fight better than most... however, you will find it difficult to whittle down your opponents combat blocks to manageable sizes with S3 no ap shooting with 12" range. You will probably get caught before you get them down to a manageable size.

Just my experience, but everyone's meta is different, and maybe there is the perfect hole for this strategy to work in your meta!

HBW MSU Corsairs are better compared to non-Skirmishing Skinks rather than the Skirmishering variety, otherwise its apples and oranges.

To that extent, the Corsair is more than twice as much but works differently. They aren't completely throwaway units like the Skinks are, but they should do well against other chaff and can even step up to fight on the front line with a little magical help.

[Askador]

The thing is. Skinks can kill a Sphinx or other monsters with low armor easy. Corsairs cannot

[Clockwork]

Well... Skirmishing Skinks? Yes, they can just run around and pepper it. Ranked Skinks? Not reliably without numbers, no.

Besides, these are different uses. Being able to kill Sphinxes is an effect of Poison, which Corsairs don't have so can never meet those expectations. However, Skinks can't reliably kill other chaff like Corsairs can.

[Jvh792]

Good point about apples n oranges. I agree with your thoughts, clockwork

[lil' fisty]

Anyone try to use bigger units of hand bow equipped corsairs, like 20+?

[mypantsarefree13]

Anyone try to use bigger units of hand bow equipped corsairs, like 20+?

I've tried up to 35, usually with full command and +1M banner, deployed 7-wide.

Most of the time, count on hitting on 5's due to long range + multi-shot (or multi-shot and stand and shoot).

The loss of 7 attacks for 30 shots (dual rhb for champ) was a fair deal in my mind; on average, I get 10 of those shots hitting. 10 is more than the best case scenario of all 7 of those lost close combat attacks hitting--good so far You get 30 shots while moving close to the enemy with M6, then another 30 when charged--so around 20 hits that albeit don't re-roll 1's. If I won the first round of combat due to magic buffs/enemy debuffs, then the loss of the 7 combat attacks was worth it. If the charging unit was a killer and I was destroyed, then the 7 combat attacks meant little to nothing anyway.

I've found the extra hand weapons only worth it when the unit is within 6" of the cauldron. S3 means nothing without the re-rolls in my mind. You can argue the rhb shots are only S3 (and not even AP) but I found the weight of numbers made up for it. Plus, here are some hand instances that can make them ace:

-Lore of Metal is getting REALLY popular. +1 to hit and AP on those luscious shooting attacks is bonkers.

-Wither the approaching enemy unit who plans to tangle with the weak, S3 elves. The corsairs still won't be able to puncture armor with their 14 close combat attacks, but the 60 shots prior to the combat on the -D3 T enemy will help the combat greatly.

-Threat potential. Enemy chaff won't bother you as much when you can shoot them off. In many lists, most of our shooting is in our own chaff (who are chaff-ing jamming the opponents backfield) or RBTs (who have the ability to target much tougher dangers than enemy chaff). Having that many rhbs can eliminate enemy chaff on their own and limit your opponent's control on the movement phase and leave your warmachines to rack up Skullcrushers, Mournfang, etc.

-Depending on the ruling of the group you play with, those rhb shots within 6" of a cauldron re-roll to wound. Powerful. Couple this with +1 to hit or lowering enemy toughness to make things really messy.

In the end, I find rhb's worthwhile because I don't plan on being in protracted combats with that unit, and I don't plan on getting flank or reared charged. I play Dark Elves where they put pressure on a point all of a sudden, cracking it. Prolonged engagements don't suit us, so I don't play to that effect. In this way, the loss of the extra hand weapon attacks from the front rank are completely worth the two rounds of shooting I get before combat. Mileage may vary

-mypantsarefree13

[Silvershadow]

That is an excellent walkthrough of the potential of corsair handbows, hat's off to you mypantsarefree13
I had mostly settled on ahw myself, but looking at the maths maybe I will try the handbows and see what they can do for me.

Don't forget you are likely to often be moving and shooting also though, so that's another -1 to hit putting you at sixes.

[mypantsarefree13]

That is an excellent walkthrough of the potential of corsair handbows, hat's off to you mypantsarefree13
I had mostly settled on ahw myself, but looking at the maths maybe I will try the handbows and see what they can do for me.

Don't forget you are likely to often be moving and shooting also though, so that's another -1 to hit putting you at sixes.

Handbows are Quick to Fire, so luckily we do not take that modifier. Thanks for the positive feedback, too fellow druchii!

-mypantsarefree13