tactics vs high elves?

[khayman82]

my tactics are generally a variation on standing and shooting with rxbs and rbts, keeping my infantry fairly stationary, executioners, witch elves and black guard on the flanks to hit any units that advance up the centre, while my cavalry sweeps up the extreme flanks to counter enemy chaff or fast cavalry. It always seems to work fairly well for me, but next week im playing a high elf player who massacred me last time.

My problem was, he didn't advance. He used the longbows extra range to outshoot me, so I had to advance (-1 to hit from moving). his sisters were able to move up into cover without suffering a penalty for moving and shooting, with the result that, because he had the first turn, most of my missile troops were decimated by the start of my second turn. Bascially he had 2 turns of unimpeded shooting, whereas I had one turn with a -1 to hit.

In addition, because he didn't advance with his PG/SM/WL - he basically did exactly what I normally do, maneuvered them into position on his inner flanks, I had to move to get into combat with him, before his archers, rbts and sisters completely wiped out my witches and executioners. The flanks were a pitched battle between our fast units, which he narrowly won (bloody frost chicken). my witch elves were decimated by the time I got to him, and his full strength units, supported by what cavalry had survived, smashed the remnants of mine

It was a bit of a shock to the system, because those tactics have never failed me before - most armies aren't as strong in shooting and magic as dark elves, and my high elf opponents usually swarm forwards because they're terrified of my rbts and rxbs.

I just didn't have an answer for it? By the end of his second shooting phase, when my missile troops were all but gone, I knew I had to do something, but what could I do?

I don't know what to do this time either. An all cavalry list isn't really an option (££), and I don't want to be stuck advancing on him with foot troops.

any suggestions?

[Omnichron]

Personally I mostly use shades and RBTs in my armies, which means that I don't have any darkshards (which is especially bad against a HE shooty lists as they have to move forth as you say).

With Dark Riders and WE in core as well as a peg master, shades, Warlocks, RBT and some magic that can debuff BS (Word of Pain or Miasma), you should be able to pressure him on several flanks, forcing him to focus on one target and leave the others be.

Shades I tend to deploy in cover or hard cover to make it really hard to hit them. If he wants to take those shots, most will be wasted and it means you can push with the rest of your troops without much worries.

If he focuses on your close combat troops, your shades and RBT can take out his shooting quite quickly with a little debuff of toughness from the locks or shadow sorc.

The worst thing you can do is to be too passive. He has the range on his side. You have a bigger amount of damage to unleash on your side.

When I say it like this it sounds quite easy, however my personal experience is that such battles are quite even with slaughter on both sides... Magic usually tips things into my balance together with the awesome Shades... and the hatred in close combat.

[Calisson]

Against Elves (HE and DE alike), the trick is to shoot the fighty stuff and fight the shooty stuff.
Your opponent applied this principle better than you and logically won.
If you cannot outshoot/outmagic him, then you must speed up your melee.

DE vs HE fights are always very, very bloody.

[Saintofm]

The biggest disadvantage elves have you can use is a lack of armor. The average unit in either dark elves or high elves has a 5+ armor save so shooting has been the best cour of action.

Add heavy hitters like White Lions and such and you have hard time getting a good comba.

SHades are meant for shooty uits. Give them some light armor (every time I take it they don't help much but every time I don't they could have saved the uinit, so your call there) and a pair of hand weapons and you have it made in the shade. I did not mean to make that pun.


Dark riders can also have some fun, espesialy if they started outside their half range. You may want to be further in to ensure a charge but modifiers to shooting do stack.

[T.D.]

and you have it made in the shade.

I approve of this pun

[Gidean]

Even though I lost last night to my High Elf Opponent, it was delicious drinking his tears when my 10 sisters of Slaughter (he had never fought them before but I explained the rules before the game) charged his Frostie and killed it outright. It helped that my CoB was within 6 inches. I got some 10 or 11 wounds on it only needing 5s.

In a Dark Elf vs. High Elf game, deployment (drops) and who goes first has the most impact.

But 15 Silverhelms charging your CoKs with general is bad....very bad.

[T.D.]

^^Frostie is another good example of what the SoS can do over Witches.

+1 to hit and wound, and have the ability to withstand return attacks and T.Stomp due to their 4++.

[Red...]

@khayman82:

Yes, that of setup is nightmarish for many dark elf setups. He out-ranges you, handmaidens are disgustingly nasty (30" range, BS5, S4 with AP, and quick to fire), and he has some nasty melee hitters to smash you if you finally do make it across to his lines.

So, what is the solution? Screeners work well. Did you know you can place a unit of shades exactly 12.01" in front of his handmaidens? So take two, and put another one in front of his archers too. Place a couple of units of harpies in front of your melee forces too. Every screener who gets in the way forces him to either shoot the screener (allowing you to advance your melee mobs unscatched) or to put up with a nasty -2 to hit modifier, which dilutes down the damage to your combat units quite considerably.

Add to the mix a couple of defensive lores: Lore of metal turns your units into 3+ armour saves, which helps considerably against S3 bows (although those handmaidens are still a pain in the backside - they are definitely OP imo). Lore of life allows you to toughen up your forces, give them regen, and regrow them if they die. Lore of beasts can toughen them up a bit too.

Add some chariots and pegasus masters to the mix. Both are all but impervious to high elf missile fire (bowmen against a chariot wound on 6s, and even handmaidens only wound on 5s - and they have a 3+ armour save to help further, while pegasus masters can be kitted up to the hilt with nasty armor that makes them hard to kill).

Contrary to what others have said - DO NOT take RxBs en masse. Your opponent outranges you and, with handmaidens, out damages you too. You will lose the firefight. Bear in mind that a particularly saavy opponent will deploy his archers at exactly 29.1 to 29.9" away from your RxBs, allowing him a full two rounds of fire at you (if he gets the first turn - which high elves always seem to manage somehow) or one round (if you somehow get the first turn). Take very few if any RxBs (10-15 is a good number at 3k versus high elves) and instead take more fast troops and melee forces. Play aggressively - get those melee units moved forward as quickly as possible, but make sure they are screened as much as possible.

High elves played the way that your opponent used them are a very hard nut for dark elves to crack. But the right use of screeners, resilient troops buffed by supportive magic, and aggressive playing with your melee forces (without diluting their power by taking mostly pointless RxBs who will otherwise spend most of the game trying to get into range, while achieving nothing until they finally make it, by which time they are already depleted too much to make ad ifference) should help significantly.

[Cold73]

Red had said it all ;-)

It is very hard to outshoot a High Elf shooty list. Although there is a saying about not taking a knife to a gun fight. When fighting HE I often bring several knives and an axe.
RXB are good but will be withered down so fast in the first round of combat that you could as well not bring them.
The only shooting i often bring is 2 units of Dark Riders..a unit of shades and 2-3 Bolt Throwers.
The rest of my army consists of Corsairs..Peg Masters..Supreme Sorceress and Warlock.

You need to make your opponent react to you. is he using multiple small units of archers...then your peg master can go right in.
Is he using 1 or 2 big units of Seaguard...then move to the side...and threaten a flank charge.

[Detherius Zythaal]

Just wanted to point out that Sisters of Avelorn only have a range 24".
And, like Red pointed out, you will lose a shooting/magic war against high elves. Our infantry shines against theirs and our fast units are mostly better than theirs (beside heavy cavalry). It is in combat that you have the advantage, so play aggressive.

[Haagrum]

In addition to the suggestions above: try killing it with fire.

High Elves are one of the few opponents against whom the Lore of Fire can be an excellent choice. Magic missiles like Chillwind, Doombolt, Burning Gaze, Fireball and Ruby Ring of Ruin help to whittle down Elves cheaply. If you can deplete his shooting (particularly the Sisters), you can start dictating the terms of the engagement.

Yes, HE have Dragon armour and Fireborn models, but those targets get the attention of your bolt throwers.

You could also try Lore of Heavens. There are useful hexes against shooty armies, as well as the Comet to force him into advancing or taking a hefty hit on multiple units.

Also - Executioners get absolutely murdered by HE units, other than White Lions and Phoenixes. Consider taking Black Guard instead, particularly if you decide to take the Lores of Metal, Beasts or Dark Magic.