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Too many choice, if, when, why, what...
http://www.druchii.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=76349
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Author:  Amboadine [ Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Too many choice, if, when, why, what...

So as a thought from the following thread amongst others http://druchii.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=158&t=76347

Combined armies are a real possibility, so the question is, what makes the cuts.
I believe it is fair to say that if GW combine the three Elven factions, then a number of units will become obsolete. So what I am asking is how do you believe a combined army list would look?

The trick I believe is to find the balance between being able to keep all factions happy, but reducing the sheer volume of choices.

Simple cuts would obviously be in Core. There is only a need for one spear choice, one missile choice (with maybe a choice of weapons) and one fast cav unit (Dark Glade Reavers).

Again the heroes and Lords choices could be cut with little effort with a wider choice of mounts.

I think the key to getting it right would be in Special and Rare. Do you for instance need Wardancers and Sisters of Slaughter, they could both fulfil similar roles?

Same with Swordmasters and Executioners and so on.

Questions then arise about Monsters and other unique entries such as Dryads and CoK's.

Bit of a rambling post, but meant as a starting point to provoke discussion on how you think a combined army list could look or how you would like it to look.

Author:  T.D. [ Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Too many choice, if, when, why, what...

!mad! !mad! !mad! *Nerdrage off Scale* !mad! !mad! !mad!

Resist the squatting of the Druchii :twisted:

-> My input to this thread :burns:

Author:  Fade [ Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Too many choice, if, when, why, what...

I agree it's a bit overwhelming at first.

To make a combined army I think a good way to look at it is looking what each army does best/ differently
In short and very general:

Darkelves: best offensive magic and infantry and excellent characters
Example: Witchelves, Executioners (although White lions might be better) and Dreadlord/Master/Deathhag

Highelves: good defensive options and excellent magic
Example: Phoenix guard (4+ wardsave), Silverhelms (2+ armor save),
Book of Hoeth item for casters, High magic is a great lore too with their attribute


Woodelves: best ranged and anti-armor/poison options.
Example: Gladeguard with great arrow options, Waywatchers+Waystalker.
Wildriders and Sisters of thorn have poison attacks.


So I would go for a mix of offensive darkelfs, highelves for the magic caster and mage bunker (Phoenix guard)
a unit of gladeguard, waywatchers+waystalker (to snipe enemy heroes/casters) as ranged support if needed
Silverhelms work very well as (anti)chaff/screen/warmachine hunting for me, so I use them instead of Darkriders now
Warlocks and Sister of thorn are allround amazing.
I always play Warlocks, sometimes add Sisters when i find the points and want their lores.

Hope that will give you some ideas.
I made some more suggestions in the topic you linked to.

also there is a link to a great blog post about the best of _all_ the elf armies here:
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?f=158&t=76008

Author:  Amboadine [ Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Too many choice, if, when, why, what...

@Fade

Maybe I was a little unclear on the purpose. I was opening a discussion on what a new combined elf list may look like. As the one in Khaine is overly large and not practical as a stand alone list ongoing.

Author:  T.D. [ Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Too many choice, if, when, why, what...

Fade wrote:
I agree it's a bit overwhelming at first.

To make a combined army I think a good way to look at it is looking what each army does best/ differently
In short and very general:

Darkelves: best offensive magic and infantry and excellent characters
Example: Witchelves, Executioners (although White lions might be better) and Dreadlord/Master/Deathhag

Highelves: good defensive options and excellent magic
Example: Phoenix guard (4+ wardsave), Silverhelms (2+ armor save),
Book of Hoeth item for casters, High magic is a great lore too with their attribute


Woodelves: best ranged and anti-armor/poison options.
Example: Gladeguard with great arrow options, Waywatchers+Waystalker.
Wildriders and Sisters of thorn have poison attacks.


So I would go for a mix of offensive darkelfs, highelves for the magic caster and mage bunker (Phoenix guard)
a unit of gladeguard, waywatchers+waystalker (to snipe enemy heroes/casters) as ranged support if needed
Silverhelms work very well as (anti)chaff/screen/warmachine hunting for me, so I use them instead of Darkriders now
Warlocks and Sister of thorn are allround amazing.
I always play Warlocks, sometimes add Sisters when i find the points and want their lores.

Hope that will give you some ideas.
I made some more suggestions in the topic you linked to.

also there is a link to a great blog post about the best of _all_ the elf armies here:
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?f=158&t=76008


Good summary.

If you want, you could continue this overview here: http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?f=158&t=76124&p=918545#p918545

Author:  Calisson [ Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Too many choice, if, when, why, what...

One limit that many gamers forget is that magic objects are, by RAW, not accessible to combined armies.
If I played a combined army, I would not take any of the AB goodies, that would already limit the choice.

Otherwise, here is my summary from the Elves. Elves! Elves? thread.
The assessed "best" of each category would be:

Fighty characters
DE Dreadlord on dragon
DE Master as BSB on pegasus
WE Waystalker for sniping

Spelly characters
HE archmage on any mount
DE sorceress on peg


Mass infantry
DE WE (CORE!)
WE Eternal Guard (CORE!)

Elite infantry
HE White Lions of Chrace +GW
WE Wardancers
DE BG

Heavy cav/chariot/monster
HE Silver Helms (CORE!)
HE Lion Chariot of Chrace
DE Kharibdyss
HE Frostheart Phoenix

Fast cav/flyers
DE DR (CORE!)
DE Doomfire Warlocks
HE/WE Great Eagles
WE Wild Riders

Scouts/shooters
DE Shades
WE Waywatcher
WE Glade Guard (CORE!)
DE RBT

Author:  T.D. [ Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Too many choice, if, when, why, what...

^^I've added a summary of the Eternal King list choices to the other thread.

Author:  Fade [ Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Too many choice, if, when, why, what...

Amboadine wrote:
@Fade

Maybe I was a little unclear on the purpose. I was opening a discussion on what a new combined elf list may look like. As the one in Khaine is overly large and not practical as a stand alone list ongoing.


Oke, i thought i could speed up the process by breaking it down a little.
Other made great replies too i see, so no need to contribute any further ;)

Calisson wrote:
One limit that many gamers forget is that magic objects are, by RAW, not accessible to combined armies.
If I played a combined army, I would not take any of the AB goodies, that would already limit the choice.


I've seen you raise this issue throughout the forum on many occasion.
Although your reasoning is sound, the concept of not being able to take AB items seems against logic and fun play.
Also a bit silly in my opinion. My meta hasn't even discussed this nor do i see a need to.
I guess untill any official ruling i think of it as a non-issue. my 2 cents only.

Author:  Calisson [ Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Too many choice, if, when, why, what...

No problem, fun>RAW.

My own 2 cents was in reply to this thread titled "Too many choice",
limiting oneself to the legal choices is one way to ease the problem. ;)

Author:  Fade [ Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Too many choice, if, when, why, what...

Calisson wrote:
No problem, fun>RAW.

My own 2 cents was in reply to this thread titled "Too many choice",
limiting oneself to the legal choices is one way to ease the problem. ;)


haha.. yes thats true :)


That summary of the blog post is nice.
I am a bit suprised about DE BG being on the list instead of Phoenix Guard
Because i feel Phoenix Gaurd bring something our most-used infantry doesn't have (good ward save).
I played with them last 4 games and they were such a tough nut for my opponents (chaos and undead legions).
While not being very killy, it can surely take some punishment.
But very usefull list!

Author:  T.D. [ Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Too many choice, if, when, why, what...

To reply to the OP.

(Despite my anger over a combined list :P)

Elves

Core
- Spears
- Swords
- Archers
- Horse Archers
- Light Chariot

Special
- Berserker Infantry
- Great Weapon Infantry
- Halberd Infantry
- Heavy Cavalry
- Heavy Chariot

Rare
- Phoenix
- Magical Cavalry
- Warshrine
- Bolt Thrower
- Scouts


I'd imagine a stripped-down generic Elves list would look something like this. But with the amount invested in the new Dark Elves and Wood Elves, I think there would be options for "Dark" and "Wood" variant troop types.

No way to tell which way they are going with this. Are the factions going to be merged into a new IP with a new aesthetic? Are they going to be combined but with expansion packs ala Space Marines? Are they going to continue onwards as separate factions and are a lot of people jumping the gun here? Who can say.

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