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8th Edition: 1250 vs Ogre Kingdoms, need help! 
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Corsair

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:20 pm
Posts: 83
Hi all,

I'm facing the Ogre Kingdoms for the first time this weekend and am rather afraid of the big scary beasts. My opponent will surely field a few units of Bulls, one of Ironguts, and one of Leadbelchers, and possibly some Mournfang cavalry along with a Butcher.
Reading through old Druchii.net threads I found lots of advice to try to shoot/magic the Ogres to death before they reach you so I'm trying to build a list with that in mind but it is looking very slim elsewhere. Below is what I am thinking of, and some other unit options after that. Any advice you can give me is much appreciated!
Lords
Supreme Sorceress, Lore of Death, Staff of Sorcery, Talisman of Preservation - 300

Heroes
Master, BSB, Dark Steed, Enchanted Shield, Ruby Ring of Ruin, Talisman of Protection
Halberd, XB, Heavy Armor, Sea Dragon Cloak - 167

Core
5x Dark Riders, Muso, XB, Shields - 110
20x Darkshards, Muso, Shields - 270

Special
2 x RBT
6x Shades, Great Weapons, Bloodshade - 118

Rare
5x Doomfire Warlocks, Master of Warlocks - 135


Also at my disposal are:
1x Hydra
6x Cold One Knights
1x Dreadlord on Cold One
20 x Corsairs
1x Assassain
I can also run the Darkshards as Dreadspears if need be.

Any thoughts? I feel I need SOME kind of ranked unit to be a bunker for the sorceress and hold out for a turn once the Bulls get to me and hope to flank charge with the Warlocks or something. Maybe the Corsairs with Gleaming Pennant or Standard of Discipline. What should I cut, what should I add?

Thanks!


Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:06 am
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Generalissimo
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Gosh, no, Dark Elf shooting cannot be relied upon to kill high toughness enemies. 5s to hit at long range, followed by 5s to wound, and multi-wound enemies, does not work, especially with ogres who can rush across the board quickly and in 8th edition where charge distances can be massive. If he runs a couple of Mournfangs, they'll just eat up your crossbow fire and laugh. Repeaters won't do much better and they will basically auto-die when they receive a charge.

You have several options of how you could go: guerrilla tactics or meeting fire with fire. Unfortunately, you lack the models for the latter (no executioners, no blackguard, no witch elves), so guerrilla warfare may be your best bet. Get your missile troops to be as mobile as possible and run circles around his units while slowly pincushioning him to death with repeater crossbow bolt fire. The key word here is "mobile" - do not run a missile line with static units of darkshards firing across the board at the ogres as they come charging across at you, that is a recipe for disaster. And take Shadow rather than death as the spells it has synchronize well with Dark Elf Guerrilla Warfare strategies. The downside to the guerrilla strategy is that it's about as exciting as watching paint dry and your opponent may curse you out. Go and buy some witch elves (j/k) :D

Oh, and consider downgrading that Supreme Sorceress. 300 points on a single model in a 1,250 game is a lot. Could a level 2 suffice? That might free up some points to make your list feel a bit less thin.

Just my two cents.

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Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:05 pm
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Corsair

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:20 pm
Posts: 83
Thanks for the advice! I have been looking in to getting a big block of witch elves and a cauldron of blood but it is just so damn expensive.
I like the idea of diminishing the Supreme Sorceress, but I spoke with my opponent and he said he was running a Slaughtermaster and a Butcher for 2 spellcasters so I worry about losing the magic fight if I can't throw lots of dispel dice. On the plus side, no mournfangs or lewdbelchers which should make my life a little easier.
Considering his reliance on magic, I think it makes sense to have smaller groups of units so he can't just squash 20 guys in one go but I don't know much about gut magic, does this ring true?
Regarding shadow magic, what spells should I shoot for? Obviously the vortex is great if I can get it off but what else should be prioritized? With a level 2 it is always compelling to take Dark because of the static +1 to cast. Initially I leaned to Death due to singling out individual models.


Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:50 pm
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Generalissimo
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Would he let you proxy the corsairs as shades? If so, I would run something along the lines of the following:

Lords
Supreme Sorceress, Dark Pegasus, Lore of Shadow, Dispel Scroll (a better investment than the staff imo), Talisman of Preservation

Heroes
Master, BSB, Dark Pegasus, Cloak of Twilight, Lance, RxB, Heavy Armor, Shield, and Sea Dragon Cloak

Core
5x Dark Riders, Muso, XB
10x Darkshards, Muso
10x Darkshards, Muso

Special
5x Shades
5x Shades
5x Shades
5x Shades

Rare
5x Doomfire Warlocks, Master of Warlocks

Try to stay out of his charge arcs and minimize the damage for those charges he does get off by clever unit positioning. Then spend the rest of the time whittling his fairly small army down with missile fire until you win.

The best shadow spells for the list are The Withering (a T1-3 ogre dies much easier to S3 RxBs than a T4 one does), Miasma (a M2-4 ogre can reach your mobile missile troops much less quickly), and Pit of Shades (which is just plain mean against Ogres).

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Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:33 am
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Corsair

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:20 pm
Posts: 83
Oh I WISH I had Dark Pegasi, those models are very hard to find. We're pretty strict about not proxying around here unfortunately but this list seems great!
Seems that not having a big deathstar is a major limitation in my army, guess I'll have to buy more models. !eek!
I think I might go something like:
Master, BSB, Dark Steed, Spellshield, Talisman of Endurance, RxB, Halberd, Heavy Armor, Sea Dragon Cloak
Lvl 2 Sorceress, Lore of Shadow, Dispel Scroll

20 Corsairs, AHW, Muso, Reaver, Gleaming Pennant
5 Dark Riders, Rxb, Shields, Muso
13 Darkshards, Guardmaster, Muso

RBT
RBT
6 Shades, Great Weapons

5 Doomfire Warlocks, Master of Warlocks

Hopefully the Corsairs can act as a bunker for the Sorceress and hold out for a turn if they are charged setting up a flank charge from the Warlocks or the DR with Master joining them... We shall see! Thanks for your advice and I'll report back.


Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:42 pm
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Killed by Khorne
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Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:51 pm
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Location: Hinterlands of Khuresh; The Lost City of the Angels
+1 to all of Red...'s comments in this thread.

Up against a list like that, it's go choppy (Witches, Execs), go elusive (DR, Shades, PegHeroes) or go home.

Quote:
Master, BSB, Dark Steed, Spellshield, Talisman of Endurance, RxB, Halberd, Heavy Armor, Sea Dragon Cloak
Lvl 2 Sorceress, Lore of Shadow, Dispel Scroll

20 Corsairs, AHW, Muso, Reaver, Gleaming Pennant
5 Dark Riders, Rxb, Shields, Muso
13 Darkshards, Guardmaster, Muso

RBT
RBT
6 Shades, Great Weapons

5 Doomfire Warlocks, Master of Warlocks


RBT are static targets, but can plink off a few wounds from Ogres. I'd use this static weakness as a strength and keep them towards the back of the board while hoping your opponent makes a beeline for them, thus allowing you to anticipate some of his movement and charges.

Darkshards are next to useless against Ogres unless you get a Mindrazor off and use them as a surprise flank charge.

Corsairs ...again Mindrazor or the Withering will be needed to make them effective. Do not think of them as a "bunker" as they are far too squishy to hold your line against a Monster/Ogre charge.

Dark riders, Warlocks and Shades should use their mobility to stay out of charge arcs and get in behind the enemy line. Warlocks and Shades, as you have noted, a good choice to threaten flank and rear charges against threats to your Corsairs.

Master build looks a little too general purpose to me; is the idea to use his spellshield to protect the Warlocks?

* * * * *

A refused flank deployment, scenery depending, may be a good strategy to employ with your list:

-- Threat X --- Threat Y -- Threat Z ---



Dark Riders------------------------- Shades--Warlocks
---------RBT--RBT---RxB---Corsairs --

i.e.
- Occupy one quarter of the board so that threat X has a long walk to get to your lines.
- Focus your ballistic fire early game and try and destroy units, especially any chaff he is using.
- Mid game try and get a Withering off and focus fire on i.e. Threat Z with all of your shooting.
- then switch your shooting to the next target i.e. Threat Y.
- use your Shades and Warlocks in tandem to threaten a combo flank/rear charge on the first unit that threatens your Corsairs.
- RBT, RBT, Rxb are sacrificial "false targets".

- the weakness to this strategy (unsuccesful magic phases aside): don't let a powerful unit -- i.e. Threat X happens to be Mournfangs -- roll up your left flank.

- hope this gives you some food for thought. Terrain is your friend in this match up; you want to delay his movement, separate his units, and combo fire + fight against any unit you do have to engage.

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Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:53 am
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Corsair

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:20 pm
Posts: 83
Really great advice, I love the idea of a refused flank deployment.
I've tweaked the Master build to have him on foot to better make use of Lore of Shadow's lore attribute to hopefully get the sorceress where she needs to be. I think he's taking some item that immediately causes a miscast in enemy wizards if within some distance so I will want to warp my Sorc away at a critical moment of necessary.
Game is in a couple of hours, I will report back!


Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:49 pm
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Corsair

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:20 pm
Posts: 83
Woof, mega-stomped. A combination of terrible luck on my part and unreal luck on the Ogre player's part and I got torn to pieces!

Terrain placement and deployment went well; a big river down the middle, hills in each deployment zone, and a smattering of other obstacles ensured the Ogres would have obstacles to contend with before they reached me. I set up the RBTs on a hill with the Darkshards in front, Corsairs way at the back line, Shades in a building in the middle of the map, Warlocks on the river side to be ready to flank charge and launch spells, and the DR on the flank to marchblock etc.
OK goes first. Turn one I dodge a maw due to scatter dice, Ogres move forwards. My turn! First spell is a Melkoth's, I 3 dice it because he has lots of dispel dice and there are no other spells within range: 1-6-6. Sweet, first spell is a miscast. Roll on the table and get a 4, then roll a 3--Sorceress sucks herself (and 7 Darkshards) into the void. Not a great start. Shades and RBT do a few wounds, I move up with the Darkriders but push them up to far, not remembering that flee distances is just 3d6 pick 2 instead of adding movement.
Turn two, Darkriders get charged, flee, caught and annihilated. Shades and RBTs do a few more wounds.
Turn three, shades get charged and break. Ogre magic missile gets five wounds on the Warlocks at max range. 3 fail their ward save on rolls of one.
Turn four, a Maw gets off on the Corsairs, killing 8. Warlocks miscast but get off a doombolt before dying, 8 wounds! Finally gets a unit of bulls gone, just the hero--RBTs bring him to one wound but fail to kill him. He later regenerates as a result of magic and rejoins another unit.
Turn five, the charge finally comes in. Corsairs crumble. Turn six down go the rest of the Darkshards.

I ended the game with 2 RBTs, he still had basically everything; I think I killed 6 bulls in total. While I certainly made a couple of tactical errors, I felt forsaken by Khaine; my blood sacrifice rituals need to be stronger before the next battle. Multiple times (especially for saves) I rolled way below average; my opponent meanwhile did not have a single Winds of Magic below 8, including both an 11 and 12, and channeled 4 times over the course of the game. Never failed a charge even at 15+ inches away. Never failed a panic test. 5- and 6-diced at least 6 spells and never miscast. Clearly my army requires sacrifice, perhaps in the form of time invested in painting, before the next battle!

tl;dr ogres are fvcking SCARY


Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:45 pm
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Slave (off the Altar)

Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:31 pm
Posts: 11
Quote:
Woof, mega-stomped. A combination of terrible luck on my part and unreal luck on the Ogre player's part and I got torn to pieces!

Terrain placement and deployment went well; a big river down the middle, hills in each deployment zone, and a smattering of other obstacles ensured the Ogres would have obstacles to contend with before they reached me. I set up the RBTs on a hill with the Darkshards in front, Corsairs way at the back line, Shades in a building in the middle of the map, Warlocks on the river side to be ready to flank charge and launch spells, and the DR on the flank to marchblock etc.
OK goes first. Turn one I dodge a maw due to scatter dice, Ogres move forwards. My turn! First spell is a Melkoth's, I 3 dice it because he has lots of dispel dice and there are no other spells within range: 1-6-6. Sweet, first spell is a miscast. Roll on the table and get a 4, then roll a 3--Sorceress sucks herself (and 7 Darkshards) into the void. Not a great start. Shades and RBT do a few wounds, I move up with the Darkriders but push them up to far, not remembering that flee distances is just 3d6 pick 2 instead of adding movement.
Turn two, Darkriders get charged, flee, caught and annihilated. Shades and RBTs do a few more wounds.
Turn three, shades get charged and break. Ogre magic missile gets five wounds on the Warlocks at max range. 3 fail their ward save on rolls of one.
Turn four, a Maw gets off on the Corsairs, killing 8. Warlocks miscast but get off a doombolt before dying, 8 wounds! Finally gets a unit of bulls gone, just the hero--RBTs bring him to one wound but fail to kill him. He later regenerates as a result of magic and rejoins another unit.
Turn five, the charge finally comes in. Corsairs crumble. Turn six down go the rest of the Darkshards.

I ended the game with 2 RBTs, he still had basically everything; I think I killed 6 bulls in total. While I certainly made a couple of tactical errors, I felt forsaken by Khaine; my blood sacrifice rituals need to be stronger before the next battle. Multiple times (especially for saves) I rolled way below average; my opponent meanwhile did not have a single Winds of Magic below 8, including both an 11 and 12, and channeled 4 times over the course of the game. Never failed a charge even at 15+ inches away. Never failed a panic test. 5- and 6-diced at least 6 spells and never miscast. Clearly my army requires sacrifice, perhaps in the form of time invested in painting, before the next battle!

tl;dr ogres are fvcking SCARY


Oh boy, sounds like it hurt badly! Reminds me of a battle report I saw with Ash Barker on his youtube channel : Guerrilla Wargaming .. his opponent owen shows up with a list of a bunch of shooty dark elves, but just gets rolled! These others have great advice.. chop up that blubbery ogre filth with lots of hacks and slashes witch elf style!

Even though it was a loss, Hope you had fun all the same!


Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:18 am
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Generalissimo
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Thanks for the write up. I've been there my friend - the dice gods placed a hex upon my head a long time ago. Hope you had fun at least :)

Going forwards, I do wonder whether you might aim at making some precision purchases as at the moment your collection is a bit too all-rounder and Dark Elves fare best when you specialize.

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Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:53 am
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Corsair

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:20 pm
Posts: 83
Yes sir, purchasing a nice big block of Witch Elves and a Cauldron of Blood, along with long-sought-after mounted sorceress model, all thanks to druchii.net and Cogath_Gloomcaller :D
I have some old metal high elf torsos and legs, 5 spare horses, and the remainder of an 8th edition box of Doomfire Warlocks/Dark Riders that I'm going to try to convert into 5 more Dark Riders as well, though I wish they hadn't made those models with the stupid legs-and-lower-torso-as-1-piece thing, going to be a pain in the ass to get the DR cloaks to fit on snipped metal bits...
I can't wait to play with a big scary chunk of Witch Elves and not have to be quite so evasive all game!


Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:17 am
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Killed by Khorne
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OOooof! :P

Sounds like you played the game the way I would have in terms of your deployment and tactics.

But dice rolling aside, that Ogre list is just a bad match up for the troops you had at your disposal. All your infantry were liable to auto-break if on the end of a charge and the only cavalry punch you had against them was the Warlocks. Not to mention the magic you needed to even the odds went down the toilet early... :sick:

Have fun expanding your collection, and remember ...if the dice go against you in one match, they will go with you in another ;) :twisted:

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Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:45 am
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