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Malekith's Best Friend

Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 8:12 am
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Thanks a lot for the report! A really interesting read :)

I'm also afraid of the Nurgle Prince; will probably try to work a Lvl1 metal and/or a Reaper Bolt Thrower or two into my list just to have a sporting chance against him.


Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:33 pm
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Setomidor wrote:
Thanks a lot for the report! A really interesting read :)

I'm also afraid of the Nurgle Prince; will probably try to work a Lvl1 metal and/or a Reaper Bolt Thrower or two into my list just to have a sporting chance against him.


Metal won't work often. They usually have dragonbane gem. Mine does. :) I think best counter is to charge Pendant Dreadlord into him and let him nuetralize the Prince for the game. The prince will likely be 500+ points and our Dreadlord is much cheaper.


Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:11 pm
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Corsair

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Agreed on the metal lore. This game the prince only had the charmed shield and no fire protection so theoretically I could have run the sorceress on the opposite flank and just Searing Doomed him off, but we play closed list and I had just assumed he had the gem (or helm) and I think it'll be standard kit to have the charmed shield, dragonbane gem, and another 15 pt item (I'm guessing OTS will be pretty popular).
I'd like bolt throwers to be effective against him, but running some quick numbers, we'll only hit him about half the time, each hit will result in an unsaved wound about half the time, so it'll take an average of 8 shots to get him.

I think a coven of light would work wonders against him, but I don't really feel like switching sides - especially with the new HE book due soon. That should be interesting - in some respects it should give a good indication of what we can expect ourselves whenever GW gets around to us (though I'm fine with the book as is currently).


Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:49 pm
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A fantastic read as always Squirrel. I salute you. Moar plz!


Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:48 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend

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Cycloptic squirrel wrote:
Agreed on the metal lore. This game the prince only had the charmed shield and no fire protection so theoretically I could have run the sorceress on the opposite flank and just Searing Doomed him off, but we play closed list and I had just assumed he had the gem (or helm) and I think it'll be standard kit to have the charmed shield, dragonbane gem, and another 15 pt item (I'm guessing OTS will be pretty popular).


True, although a fair few will probably either go Glittering Scales or Dispel Scroll (if it's the only Wizard in the army), and then you can toast him from afar :) Even if he DOES have 2++ against Flaming, it doesn't combine with neither his armour nor the regular 5++, which means that you still have quite decent chances to inflict a wound or two. A low-level Searing Doom has ~70% to inflict a single wound on average.

Cycloptic squirrel wrote:
I'd like bolt throwers to be effective against him, but running some quick numbers, we'll only hit him about half the time, each hit will result in an unsaved wound about half the time, so it'll take an average of 8 shots to get him.


Also true, but I'd actually consider these odds to be quite good! He will have to think twice about exposing the Prince to a pair of bolt throwers. Since you have (about) a 25% per shot to inflict an unsaved D3 wounds, it's about 45% chance that at least one of the two shots will hit, wound, and be unsaved. Getting him down a few wounds means that he'll have to stay back and play more defensively, and that is worth 200 points alone :)


Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:43 am
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That's a really good point about Searing Doom; thinking of the fire protection increasing the ward save from 5+ to 2+ puts some perspective on it - the prince probably still isn't the first priority with likely knights and chariots running around, but definetly something to keep in mind.
I'm still unsure about the bolt throwers; even if you knock a few wounds off, most princes will be able to regain them once in combat. There is something to be said for the psychological factor of having the opportunity, though. I won't be trying out bolt throwers myself any time soon, but I would be interested in hearing others' experience with them.

Gidean wrote:
A fantastic read as always Squirrel. I salute you. Moar plz!

Thanks! Good to know they're appreciated. I have another against Chaos Dwarves that I'll write up soon.


Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:00 pm
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Setomidor wrote:

Also true, but I'd actually consider these odds to be quite good! He will have to think twice about exposing the Prince to a pair of bolt throwers. Since you have (about) a 25% per shot to inflict an unsaved D3 wounds, it's about 45% chance that at least one of the two shots will hit, wound, and be unsaved. Getting him down a few wounds means that he'll have to stay back and play more defensively, and that is worth 200 points alone :)



I respectfully disagree Setomidor. I'm playing with a Nurgle Demon Prince currently. When I see any warmachines on the table I rush to get into combat (more aggressively) to prevent them targetting him AND to increase the likelihood that my soulfeeder will restore wounds I might have taken on the way to combat.

But sadly, the Bolt Thrower might be the only answer (besides magic) we have to Demon Princes for our beloved Druchii. With WoC and DoC releases I believe most Sorceresses should be fielding Death Magic for snipes or Shadow Magic for Mindrazor and Pit.


Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:51 pm
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Had a battle a week ago against Chaos Dwarves; I knew a bit about the book since a friend was kind enough to let me peruse it some time back, but this was my first game directly against them, so I was excited and a little wary.

Tigers
Dreadlord on Dragon w/ sea dragon cloak, Blood Armor, Soulrender, Pendant of Khaeleth, Ironcurse Icon
Master BSB on Dark Pegasus w/ heavy armor, shield, sea dragon cloak, Crown of Command, Dragonhelm, Luckstone
Sorceress[METAL] on Dark Pegasus, Dispel Scroll, Whip of Agony
Sorceress [DEATH], lv 2, Seal of Grhond, Scepter of Stability

22 Repeter Crossbowomen w/ shield, full command
10 Repeater Crossbowomen w/ musician
5 Dark Riders w/ repeater crossbows
5 Dark Riders w/ repeater crossbows

5 Harpies
5 Harpies
5 Cold One Knights w/ banner, Banner of Eternal Flame, champion, Ring of Hotek
Hydra
Hydra

Chaos Dwarves
Sorcerer, lv 4, dispel scroll, 5+ ward
BSB, heavy armor, 4+ ward
Hobgoblin Khan on wolf, Charmed Shield

43 Infernal Guard, fireglaives full command, warbanner

8 Ka’daai Fireborn
Ka’daai Destroyer
Iron Daemon with Skullcracker, Hellbound


Setup and Deployment:
We rolled up battle of the pass and I chose the side with the tower; I didn’t know if I wanted to garrison it or not, but I knew I didn’t want the dwarves holed up in there where I couldn’t grind them out.
His Ka’daii Fireborn were deployed on the southern half and I placed my crossbows opposite despite the iron deamon next to them. When the destroyer was placed on the same side I thought perhaps I had made a mistake, but with the destroyer’s mobility and compressed battlespace, I’m not sure it would have made too much difference if was deployed in the north. The southern hydra was placed to attempt to tie up the iron deamon while the BSB and his dragonbane gem did the same to the destroyer. I was hoping my massed shooting would whittle the fireborn while the northern hydra and dragon would run straight at the dwarves.
For magic I had Searing Doom, Fate of Bjuna, and Spirit Leech while he had Burning Wrath (d6S6 magic missile with 8” range), Dark Subjugation (pass a ld test -3 or lose one ld), Curse of Hashut (sniper spell, 2d6-T hits, 4+ to wound), and Ash Storm (hex, unit cannot charge, march, fly, -1 to hit, -2 shooting, becomes flammable, wizards cannot cast anything but self buffs).
Image

Tiger turn 1:
The crossbows inched up to get in range of the fireborn, the knights rushed up with the intent of sweeping around the rock and forcing miscasts, barely keeping them in range of the BSB for next turn’s stupidity check. The dragon and hydra advanced cautiously, not wanting to offer a long range charge option to the dwarves.
Magic was 9v4. The death mage cast Power of Darkness for no gain and used five dice for a long range Spirit Leech which was cast irresistibly. The spell did little damage, but the miscast was the small round template, killing 4 crossbows, putting a wound on the mage, and losing another power die. The metal sorceress cast Power of Darkness for a gain of one die and then used all six for Searing Doom on the dwarves which was irresistibly dispelled.
Between the long range, cover, and 4+ ward saves, the shooting only put one wound on the fireborn.
Image

Chaos Dwarves turn 1:
The infernal guard moved up to shoot at the knights (which made me nervous since I had forgotten they had shooting) while the fireborn rushed toward my lines. The destroyer moved toward the dragon while the iron deamon stayed back as it was blocked by the fireborn and destroyer.
Magic was 12v8 and the sorcerer started with the Curse of Hashut; I didn’t want to risk my BSB so early in the game so dispelled it (3v4). Next came Dark Subjugation (4v0) on the dragonlord, and I let it go since the BSB was nearby, but I failed the ld7 test so was reduced to ld9. Finally, Ash Storm (5v4) was cast on the crossbowmen; I wasn’t too worried about the penalties to shooting, but I did want to get my BSB into the destroyer. I wasn’t too keen on the idea of using the scroll this early and sine I had a decent chance to match the casting value with dispel dice with the scepter as backup, I tried dispelling, but a poor roll meant that the scepter would only work on a 5+; I didn’t want to risk it since I didn’t absolutely have to tie up the Ka’daai as of yet.
I felt very lucky in shooting to lose only two knights to the fireglaives.
Image

Tiger turn 2:
The cavalry rolled a 10 for their stupidity check, which was now not enough due to the general’s subjugation, but since I had restrained the movement to remain in BSB range, I was able to pass on the re-roll. I briefly considered taking the dragon into the dwarves immediately, but that would leave his flank exposed to the destroyer; while I could redirect with the hydra, it would only be a one turn delay which would not be nearly enough time to grind out the infernal guard. With that in mind, I decided the best option would be to swing around to the rear. The hydra could not get out of the destroyer’s arc of sight so I elected to just get as far away as I could; when the charge came, I could flee, likely get away, and leave the destoryer’s flank exposed for my BSB (assuming no repeat of the Ash Storm). The fireborn I redirected with the harpies while retreating with the small unit of crossbows to get out of the overrun path. The hydra was set up for a countercharge if needed. I really wanted to get the dark riders around the southern flank, but with the iron daemon and its ability to charge in any direction, that would not have been the wisest idea, so they just went in reserve. The large unit of crossbows should have simply stayed put and shot, but with Ash Storm in play I thought I might as well take the opportunity to move back nearer the tower, though I realized in the shooting phase this was a mistake, as hitting on 6s is still decent while hitting on 8s really is.
Magic was 7v6 and my death mage could not cast anything due to Ash Storm. The metal sorceress had her Power of Darkness dispelled (2v2), but her Searing Doom (5v4) killed the hobgoblin khan with a high roll.
Due to the crossbow retreat into long range, I only took of a few wounds on the fireborn while the rear dark riders managed to kill a dwarf.
Image

Chaos Dwarves turn 2:
The destroyer, showing it’s mobility, rushed north, threatening to countercharge should the dragon try to get into the infernal guard. The infernal guard spun around to face the dragon as well as the many units accompanying her. The fireborn charged into and through the harpies, losing one wound in the process; a 11+ on the overrun would have brought the ka’daai into the hydra, but instead only overran 2. The iron daemon, now free rushed towards the line of crossbows.
Magic was 6v5 and Curse of Hashut (3v0) was cast on the flying sorceress; I was worried about a repeat of Ash Storm and decided the odds were that the sorceress would survive, so I didn’t oppose. A nine was rolled for a total of five hits, of which three of them wounded on 4+, and I’m down a sorceress with her scroll unused. The silver lining was that due to proximity of the Ring, the spell was miscast and the resulting small template killed six dwarven guardsmen and drained all remaining power dice.
The dwarves took aim with their fireglaives and drop only three dark riders and barely pass the ld9 panic check.
Image

Tiger turn 3:
At this point, I’m considering the limits of the fireglaives and decide that I’ll likely only lose one or two cavalry on a charge, so I declare and end up with 4-5 unsaved wounds, more than enough to drop the unit. Without the champion to take up a challenge, I decide that putting the dragon into combat is not the best idea at this time, so she flies back to center, keeping far away from the iron daemon. The hydras are 13” and 14” away from the iron daemon and I figure one of them should make it in and tie it up for the rest of the game, so they both charge and both fall short. With the metal monstrosity bearing down on them, the crossbows decide that this would be a good time to garrison the tower, while the small unit accepts their fate of being fireborn food and simply shoot from where they are.
Magic is 5v4 and Power of Darkness is canceled by a scroll (2v-). The long range Spirit Leech (3v4) is then easily dispelled.
Shooting is again a little lackluster, and only 3-4 wounds are taken off the fireborn.
Image

Chaos Dwarves turn 3:
The Ka’daai destroyer, now frustrated with the cat and mouse game, moves towards my shooting and hydras, intent on destroying something. The iron daemon rolls well for distance and smashes into the tower. The ka’daai fireborn charge the crossbows, who decide now is the time to learn how to shoot and take off 5-6 wounds, leaving the unit with only 3 models left (8 wounds). The infernal guard turn and shoot off the remaining dark riders.
Magic is 11v7 and ends quickly as the sorcerer rolls poorly for a three dice Curse of Hashut and fails to meet the casting value.
The iron daemon doesn’t get its impact hits for attacking a garrisoned building (though the fluff would indicate otherwise), but the skullcracker upgrade increases the stomp to 2d6; six elves fall but the remainder keep the building, forcing the iron daemon an inch back. The crossbows hit the fireborn decently, but the ward saves prevent all but one wound. With all three fireborn still standing, they quickly kill 8 elves, but fail to catch the remaining two as they flee.
Image

Tiger turn 4:
My BSB finally has a chance to hold up the destroyer, but I decide to take in the dragon as well, figuring that between all the S6 I have, I may be able to grind him out. The dark riders charged the iron daemon and were able to barely make it due to it being one inch back from the tower after the failed assault. The hydras rushed toward the dwarven line, hoping to put their breath weapons to use.
Magic was 7v6 and a Spirit Leech (3v3) was dispelled. Fate was cast with the remaining dice and was cast irresistibly, causing a small explosion, killing five crossbowomen and my remaining caster; the spell put a wound or two on the fireborn, shooting did another bringing the unit down to one model.
In combat, the iron daemon did not get impact or stomps, but the crew could still attack with their three s4(!) attacks, killing one rider. The destroyer’s pre-fight flames failed to get past my BSB’s armor, so the dragonhelm secret was still safe, but the dragon was wounded. The BSB hit and wounded once, but failed to wound on the reroll. The destroyer allocated all attacks against the BSB and the helm saved all wounds. The dragon followed the lead of my BSB and wounded once, but couldn't wound on the reroll. The dragonrider had a magical weapon, but managed to wound only once. Without stomps on either side, I was up by three (charge, flag, flank, even on wounds) and the destroyer took three wounds from being unstable.
Image

Chaos Dwarves turn 4:
The remaining fireborn repositioned to the dark rider’s rear while the infernal guard spun again to shoot harpies.
Magic was 12v6 and started with Curse of Hashut (3v0) on a single harpy who died four times over. I let go Burning Wrath which surprisingly only killed another two harpies and the remaining held under the eye of the dragonrider. Ash Storm (5v0) was cast on the northern hydra and it was out of probable dispel range so I saved my dice for last spell Dark Subjugation (4v6) which I was able to dispel.
The infernal guard shot the last two harpies.
The dragon and BSB couldn’t get a wound through on the destroyer, the destroyer wounded the dragon twice, and then the dragonrider put two wounds through herself, killing the monstrosity. The iron daemon crew killed two dark riders and the remaining two ran off.
Image

Tiger turn 5:
It was looking like last turn due to time, so the Dragon and BSB charged the rear of the horde and the unstormed hydra attempted as well, but didn’t roll the 12+ needed. The other hydra would have charged as well, but for the haze of the Ash Storm preventing charging. The last seven crossbowomen in the building exited to avoid charges but were able to keep the sole fireborn in their sights. The two fleeing crossbows slowed a little and barely stayed on the board, as did the dark riders.
Magic was non-existant, and the shooting failed to wound the fireborn even once.
In combat the BSB challenged and cut down the unit champion who accepted. After breath, attacks, and stomps, about a dozen dwarves fell while failing to wound the dragon in return. The guardmen, steadfast and stubborn, made their re-rollable ld10 break test.
Image

Chaos Dwarves turn 5:
The iron daemon made a very long charge into the hydra and killed it on impact hits alone. The last fireborn looked to the crossbowomen.
Magic was 9v5 and I let through Dark Subjugation (2v0) but passed the rerollable ld6 on the dragon. I used all my dice to dispel Ash Storm (5v5), and Curse of Hashut (2v0) dealt four wounds to the unengaged hydra, who saved none through regeneration.
In combat, I challenged with my BSB and his BSB accepted; he did one wound to me and I none to him. The dragon and rider opened up again and did killed another dozen dwarves , but the dragon took two wounds in return.
Image

Postgame:
In the end I was left with a severely depleted crossbow unit, a two woman unit of crossbows about to flee the table, a two woman unit of dark riders about to do the same, a hydra on her last wound, a dragon on her last wound, and two heroes. Meanwhile, while I had killed most of the fireborn, one left was enough to preserve all their points, as were the six of original 43 infernal guard. I only got points for the khan and destroyer, so it was a pretty clear win for the Chaos Dwarves.
Had it gone another turn, the fleeing units would have cleared the board, the fireborn likely takes out the crossbows, I probably sacrifice the hydra to the iron demon to protect the dragon, who could potentially grind out the infernal guard before dying, and I might kill the sorcerer, but maybe not. I think both sides get more kills, but I don’t think there’d be a net change in the result.
All said, I really enjoyed the game and am happy to have taken out a destroyer (though that’s pretty much all I got points for). I feel silly about charging the knights in when I could have just kept them nearby and force miscasts. I also feel silly about letting my flying sorceress die to a spell that could have been scrolled, though given the odds, I think I'd make the same choice (am I right or do I just not learn my lesson?). My metal mage was completely misused altogether though – I should have had her on the other flank and try to take out the iron daemon – I doubt I would have killed it before I felt compelled to try and tie it up, but it would have been better than trying to nickel and dime the infernal guard. I need to be more careful with my death mage once she’s taken a wound as a second miscast is very likely to kill her. Finally, I need to be more thoughtful with challenges; I don’t need to challenge unless I want to force someone in combat with the BSB; the BSB has a lot of staying power, but not much killing power beyond the first round. Now if he wants to challenge, I can accept with the BSB against a unit champion or with the dragon against a character that might be tough to chop through. This game I’m not sure it made a big difference, though if it lasted another three turns, I’d be in trouble as the BSBs might continually bounce attacks off each other while the dragon sits by having killed everything else.
This was my first game against Chaos Dwarves and I think I learned a lot, though this list is a bit different from the artillery heavy list I was expecting. I feel I had enough fast elements that I could have silenced or at least tied up big guns pretty early. My opponent noted with amusement that all his infernal guard did all game was spin ‘round and ‘round, which is true, but then again, I don’t think I had the big blocks that they need to advance against. Chaos Dwarf magic is pretty powerful, but not as terrifying as I thought it was, with the exception of Ash Storm – very nice spell that I’d likely try and stop every time. Though some things in the CD army might be a little off balance, my list has the tools that can potentially deal with them so it made for a fun game that I'll need to try and rematch against.
C&C always appreciated!


Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:33 pm
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Corsair

Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:54 pm
Posts: 86
I've been playing around with other DE builds recently, partially because of the meta shift - the Nugle DP is on everyone's mind and most things that can mitigate him are also effective against a dragon. But after a break, I'm back to the dragon, at least for a little while while I get some corsairs modeled up.
I'm also playing around with the youtube thing. After creating one video, I've learned a bit, and hopefully by the time I create the next one the editing, audio, and picture quality will improve.
DE Tigers vs HE

List is similar to what I've been running - the 2400 point version. I'm pretty happy with the list and I don't think I'll be changing it in the foreseeable future, but I'm always open to discussing it.

Dreadlord on Dragon w/ sea dragon cloak, Blood Armor, Soulrender, Pendant of Khaeleth, Ironcurse Icon
Master BSB on Dark Pegasus w/ heavy armor, shield, sea dragon cloak, Crown of Command, Dragonhelm, Luckstone
Sorceress[METAL] on Dark Pegasus, Dispel Scroll, Whip of Agony
Sorceress [DEATH], lv 2, Seal of Grhond, Scepter of Stability

23 Repeter Crossbowomen w/ shield, full command
10 Repeater Crossbowomen w/ musician
5 Dark Riders w/ repeater crossbows
5 Dark Riders w/ repeater crossbows

5 Harpies
5 Harpies
5 Cold One Knights w/ banner, Banner of Eternal Flame, champion, Ring of Hotek
Hydra
Hydra


I liked the loremaster, I thought he provided a nice but balanced alternative to the traditional level 4. I was impressed by the bolt throwers and can't wait for similarly priced DE versions. I found it hilarious that one hydra couldn't make a single regeneration save while the other made 7 out of the first 7 regeneration saves (and something like 9 out of 12 overall)! I made a huge mistake with the dragon and should have left her to deal with the silverhelms alone - they were unlikely to break and even if they did, I don't think the lions were as near as I had feared they were. Without putting my BSB at risk I would have been able to do what I normally do and dance around waiting for a flank/rear instead of going all in - though how it worked out made for a more enjoyable game. I'm really impressed by how effective my countermagic was, but I'm not sure it'll be as reliable when going up against a level 4. Overall, it was a fun game, but boy do I hate that anti-magic flag they have!


Tue May 28, 2013 6:31 am
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No...not Threadmancy....just wondering what happen to this contributor. Miss his Batreps. Maybe he didn't like the changes wrought from the new book?


Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:50 pm
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I also love this blog and as the forum is a bit silent it would not mind if I get this blog in the spot again :)

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