2250 Beasts in the extreme

Duke of swords · Post by **Duke of swords** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:35 am

So it's been forever since I posted an army. Last time was a 2000pt version of this same army. Now that everyone around here plays 2250 and that seems to be the tourney standard....

2250 Pts -Beasts of Karond Kar

Highborn 556 Pts
General, Lance; Rxb, HA, SDC, Black Dragon, Shield of Ghrond, Heart-stone of Darkness

Beastmaster (2#, 267 Pts)
Lance, LA, SDC, Manticore, Seal of Ghrond

5 Heralds of Karond Kar 111 Pts (DR)Mus, Std

5 Wranglers 104 Pts (DR)Std

5 Hunters 127 Pts DR with Rxb) Mus

5 Hunters 127 Pts (DR with Rxb) Mus

Kurlijo (Royal war hydra) 255 Pts

Bahb (War Hydra) 220 Pts

11 Beast Knights 414 Pts
Full Command, Soul Shadows Standard

5 Harpies 65 Pts

Total Roster Cost: 2246

So what about this list? Well, at first it was supposed to be lead by Rakarth but I'm staying awayfrom special characters as they seem to lose you points even though Rakarth is rather weak.

Anyway I hesitated for a long time to play this since it has basically no magic defense but now under 7th I think that's less of an issue (fewer magic overload armies). I have so many units that can take out mages.

I've had games where I lost two units first turn to magic but still managed to win the game.

I left out ifantry on purpose to go with the theme--everybody rides. With no foot troops to slow them down it's supposed to be a kinda combo guerila/blitzkrieg army living of the local fauna without any supply train while showing up in the most inconvenient places...

DoS

Duke of swords · Post by **Duke of swords** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:04 pm

No comments, huh?

This has become my favorite list to play. I've done well against Ogres (two versions), O+G and a few others but I'm more afraid of a shooty drarf army than of a magic heavy army. I just can't take that much punishement--not enough models !frown!

DoS

Seleth · Post by **Seleth** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:22 am

Your army have an excellent movement, no more tha one turn without combat but i found two weakness.
1)Even the hydras can die in a single turn by shooting, i lost one because of skinks and poisoned attacks

, if you fought armies focused in movement and shoting as elves you cpuld pass a bad time, they are nany points just in your general, the lost of one monster is high.
2)In combat maybe you can bring a lot of attacks from a single unit, but you will suffer terrible by combat resolution, so you would focused in flanking.

I believe those and the magic are the hard weakness of your list.
Its the risk, we take to give us the pleasure of a theme army.
Sometimes we must do it.
Hope you the best in your game, and hope i can help.

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:29 am

No comments, huh?

If you dont get any comments on a list it normaly means that its a good list ad people dont have any thing to say that would improve it

Duke of swords · Post by **Duke of swords** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:00 am

Heh, that's a very positive way to look at it.

When I posted the first version a year ago or so it was like heresy, but now it seems much less controversial. I must admit I was hoping it would get a discussion going regarding the efficacy of abandoning so many conventional rules.

As soon as I have all the figures I need painted I definitely plan to use it in tourney for a while, at least until I get tired of getting my butt kicked ;-)

Who knows, maybe I'll succeed. Then again maybe I'll face nothing but gunlines on blasted fields and 80 skink armies in dense forrests....

DoS

Seleth · Post by **Seleth** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:23 am

hahahahaha
and all of us would remeber this moment

Good Luck!

Ostron · Post by **Ostron** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:58 pm

Duke of Swords wrote:Heh, that's a very positive way to look at it.

When I posted the first version a year ago or so it was like heresy, but now it seems much less controversial. I must admit I was hoping it would get a discussion going regarding the efficacy of abandoning so many conventional rules.

DoS

I imagine a lot of the moaning before had to do with the 2 hydras. In 6th, that was a very unpopular choice, but now in 7th where the hydra's a skirmisher that can breathe after it marches a lot of people are reconsidering it as a viable option.

I don't see where you're abandoning conventional rules though; You've got a dragon and a BM-mounted manticore, but your list is for 2250, and dragons seem to stop becoming anathema after you breach the 2000 level. You have minimal magic defense, but that's been done before, and you've got the large block of knights, which is only non-standard I think because of the proliferation of MSU.

Duke of swords · Post by **Duke of swords** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:32 am

About that large block of knights. This is a totally new thing for me. In the past my knigthts were always either 6 with full command or minimum size and naked. Earlier versions of the list had two smaller units of knights but I've decided that at least one unit in my army should be able to take a shot or two and still charge head-on. I worry about stupidity (hence the SSS) and I'm usually not an "eggs in one basket" kinda player. In fact even dragons are a fairly new concept for me. "I was MSU before MSU was cool". That is, I started out playing Warhammer with smaller units and everyone tried to convince me big blocks were needed but I was never convinced.

DoS

Raneth · Post by **Raneth** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:34 am

Notices 2 War Hydras, for which I must pay my respects! Carry on! If only stuff wasn't so vulnerable to shooting

I play the same style, but if I have my way, never on open plains... :evil:

Victor simic · Post by **Victor simic** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:30 am

About that large block of knights. This is a totally new thing for me. In the past my knigthts were always either 6 with full command or minimum size and naked. Earlier versions of the list had two smaller units of knights but I've decided that at least one unit in my army should be able to take a shot or two and still charge head-on. I worry about stupidity (hence the SSS) and I'm usually not an "eggs in one basket" kinda player.

I know what your saying about wanting a unit that can `take a shot or two and still charge head on`, but I still think COK`s are infinately more effective, and less vulnerable (in a sense...I`ll explain shortly), in smaller units. You mentioned that you used to take two smaller units. What was the main problem with that ? Were you facing armies with multiple high strength attacks that shredded your small COK units ? Just wondering what the problem was with fielding two smaller units.

I love COK`s (which I continue to mention), and have tried many different configurations and tactics with them. I agree that using a big unit (10+) can help with survivability, but if an opponent has high strength attacks at his disposal, you can be garaunteed he will concentrate EVERYTHING on taking out your beautiful big block of Druchii Nobility. Unless you field a unit of 16-20 models, you`ll still get mauled by a concerted effort to destroy the unit. Even a huge unit will have problems. In very big games (3000+) I think you can get away with using bigger units of everything. Unit size can grow in proportion to the size of the army.

The main problems I believe you might have with your unit of 11 COK`s :

* 11 models isn`t that big. A few artillery hits, or high strength AS ignoring shots could still knock the unit down to half size or less.
* Not as manuverable. In a tight battlefield with lots of terrain, a six model wide (or 5-5-1) unit of Cavalry may well have problems getting into place for a charge. Additionally, after overshooting following a successful charge/run down, will take longer to organise for another effort.
* All eggs in one basket. The old cliche. I know your aware of this problem, and doubtless have decided to soldier on. I also know you have two Hydras, a Manticore and a Dragon. The trouble is, if your big COK block gets smashed, or seriously dented, you will give up alot of VP`s (if it`s destroyed), or be left with just the Hydras as your ground based (non-flying) hard hitters. It`s always nice to have a reserve unit of Heavy Cavalry if possible.

The advantages of using a unit of 11 COK`s :

* Yes, they will be more survivable. It will absorb more firepower than a unit of 5 or 6 COK`s. Hopefully you`ll reach the enemy battleline with enough survivors to get a strong charge off.
* Looking so magnificent, they may (possibly) distract your opponent from shooting at your Dragon or Manticore. MAYBE.
* If they survive crossing the field and get to charge the enemy close to (or completely at) full strength, they will hit REALLY hard, and have a better chance of achieving auto-break with their high unit strength combined with causing Fear.

What I meant earlier about two smaller units being less vulnerable, was that in my experience, charging two (or three) small units at the enemy usually means at least one gets to hit home. With one big unit if they get badly damaged on their way to the fight, you have no replacement.

Overall, I actually really like your list. Multiple large tempting targets will keep your opponent undecided about which is the greater threat at any given time, and should mean that some of them get to cause some serious damage. I also like the four Dark Rider units and Harpies. They should run rings around the enemy, and help set up some devastating charges.

Great Beast theme, and looks to be a pretty formidable force.

Good luck.

Duke of swords · Post by **Duke of swords** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:59 pm

Thanks for the analysis on the big unit of CoK. In the past I have always done smaller units but with this army in particular I decided to try the one big block.

Part of this comes from the apearance that most armies around here have a few (or just one) really nasty units and I really don't have a good strategy for that with the smaller units. Generally my stragegy would be to bait and flee or throw the big unit a bone and generally just try to keep them from earning back their points while I picked appart the rest of the army and win on points without hurting the uber unit. But with this army I'm not sure I can do that because I also have a lot of big, expensive units that have to work hard to make back their points. I really don't want my 255point hydra to be sacrificed to the uberunit but how do I prevent it? even if I can keep it alive, it will be out of combat and without serious ground threats to back them up I really can't count on my DR to consistently outmanuever the other guys support units. An uberunit in the center with some fast support on the flanks is a problem unless I can actually threaten the uberunit. This way I think I have the option of a combined charge--large cav in the front and dragon on the side--which can seriously threaten even the most potent uberunits in a way that 6 CoKs simply can't do.

Also, as you said this unit is fearsome enough to draw fire. I have so many juicy targets that I'd actually prefer my CoKs to take some hits and this way it actually takes a pretty decent amount of firepower to wipe it out. If I'm left with 6 knights then I'm in the same situation I would have been with two units but this way I'm only taking one panic test.

Also, I really have no center to my army. It's got no place for my opponent to focus their movement which I consider a disadvantage. I want my opponent to be thinking of moving toward something because it puts them in a better mindset for me to abuse with supperior movement. This army can lose in any phase but it can really only win in the movement phase. Usually I opt for multiple smaller units to give me more options, but in this case I already have too many options and I really don't want to remind my opponent of that. Does that make sense?

DoS

Victor simic · Post by **Victor simic** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:06 am

Yeah. It makes sense. I think the army will do quite well against most opponents. you might get overwhelmed by a horde army, but you`d make a mess of them first.

I wouldn`t worry too much about which unit`s gonna cop it. Some will die. But some will live. It`s the one`s that live that will spoil your opponents day. Like I said before, you have enough nasty units to ensure that some should get to cause some carnage.

Don`t underestimate your DR ability to hold the enemy up. Sure they can die easily, but if the enemies killing DR, that`s one attack that wont be headed for one of your important units. Use the DR in the tried and true bait and flee tactic. That will slow your opponent down and allow you to manouver your hard hitters into advantagous positions. To get rid of the DR problem your opponent will have to divert attacks to kill them. Either way you win.

I wouldn`t worry about not having a `centre` too much either. You could use the COK`s as a sort of centre. Just something for the enemy to focus on. I think having no real defined centre or battleline can be an advantage at times. It gives your opponent the dilemma of either splitting his forces, and going after individual elements of your force, or keeping a coherant battleline himself and waiting for you to come to him. In both cases it suits your army with it`s strong individual elements.

The only other worry apart from a mega horde army might be a Dwarf or Empire gunline with LOTS of cannons and armour piercing weapons. If they sit back and pound you, it might get ugly. You would just have to use your mobility and close with them ASAP.

Anyway, there`s no perfect army. Good luck.