Benjis 7th Ed Dark elves, Take 2.

Benji · Post by **Benji** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:25 am

Hi Guys,

After having a bit of fun with my first army of the new book ( http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=55226 ) ithoungh it change to a traditional darkelf list.

This army is the style that i will play over the next year and also take to the ETC in august if i am playing Dark Elves there. A club mate is also using a similar list so we will be bouncing ideas of each other and tweeking the list to suit the comp.

For now i am aiming at Giant Fanatic in september.

On to the list -

IMO darkelves work best when they are a dodge and shoot style army, picking fights where they like once the shooting and magic has crippled your opponent.

First thing i a list like this is the Lv4 on pegasus with focus familiar. There is no way this character will die unless you make a mistake or a miscast takes her out. I also run her with the deathmask and a scroll. The death mask stops terror tests and also lets her flee if she gets in a mess rather than the Pearls which make her immune to Psyc.

At GF the comp is only 9 power dice per phase, I'm adding 2 lv2's to my Lv4. This gives me 10 power dice, I can only use 9 of them but i get 3 attempts at power of darkness which DO NOT count towards the power dice cap. One of the sorceress' is mounted with lifetake and Tome of Furion, the other is on foor in her pants.

I'm wondering if the mounted lv2 actually needs to be level 2, or if lv1 is enough.

On to the core -

As i said above this is a classic dark elf army so certain things write themselves in.

3 x 10 Rxb warriosa
2 x 15 Spear warrions, St, Mu, Shields
2 x 5 Dark Riders, Rxbs
2 x 5 Harpies

Standard stuff here. Rxb shooting is rubbish in the early part of the game. Usually hitting on 6's Later in the game it comes into it's own, at short range and not needing to move that why 3 units are in there. They will get shot up early on, 3 units means i still have plenty of fire power later in the game when it counts

The spears are a distraction, not much else. the GF pack is heavily baseb on scenarios and to be a scoring unit you have to start the game at more than 100 points, That whei the spears have shield snad the dark riders have rxbs.

Special -

1 Unit of shades, 6 with great weapons.

Self expliantary really. THese guys ar ethe nuts.

Rare -

2 bolt throwers
1 war hydra.

The bolt throwers are required in the current enviroment. It keeps the tanks/dragons/thirsters in check. With no bolt throwers in the army they have no fear of the st3 shooting.

The hydra is in because it is the best thing in the game. 175 points! its a bargin buy.

I have also included an assassin. He is kitted for shooting with rending stars, manbane and Cloak of Twilight. The rulespack says it's st7 vs T5. to be honest it would probably be included anyway. 3 st6 shots at a chariot.war alter/steam tank still leaves a hole in it especially when combined with the bolt throwers.

So the full list is -

Supreme Sorceress @ 410 Pts
General; Magic Level 4
Focus Familiar
Dispel Scroll
Deathmask
Dark Pegasus

1 Sorceress @ 192 Pts
Magic Level 2
Tome of Furion
Lifetaker
Dark Steed
1 Sorceress @ 135 Pts
Magic Level 2

10 Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen @ 100 Pts

10 Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen @ 100 Pts

10 Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen @ 100 Pts

15 Dark Elf Warriors @ 114 Pts
Shield; Standard; Musician

15 Dark Elf Warriors @ 114 Pts
Shield; Standard; Musician

5 Dark Riders @ 110 Pts
Rptr Crossbow

5 Dark Riders @ 110 Pts
Rptr Crossbow

5 Harpies @ 55 Pts

5 Harpies @ 55 Pts

6 Shades @ 106 Pts
Great Weapon

Dark Elf Assassin @ [171] Pts
2ndWeapon
Rending Star
Manbane
Cloak of Twilight

Reaper Bolt Thrower @ 200 Pts

War Hydra @ 175 Pts

Total Army Cost: 2249

After Giant Fanatic the list will be trimmed to 2000points for heat 1.

I'm playing in a 1 dayer on the 13th too and i think i will use the GT list. I've not thought about what to drop but i know i will be adding the Dagger to the 2nd lv 2.

Please don't put individual points costs. --druchii77

Skilgannon · Post by **Skilgannon** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:39 pm

I'm surprised that you haven't gone for musicians on your Dark Riders especially as your general might not be around to boost their leadership when they are fleeing.

Also I really like to have 20 spearmen in units as I want to absolutely maximise static combat res particuarly against things like treemen. Personally I don't bother with shield that much. I can see the point of them to go hand weapon shield against some units but against most opponents I don't see it making much difference. I am particuarly surprised that you have gone for shields on units of 15, if you had twenty and wanted to protect your combat res I could understand it a bit more.

Otherwise it looks like a nice mix of troops.

- human · Post by **- human** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:54 pm

Looks interesting. I suggest finding the points to put shields on the crossbowmen, they really perform better with them.

The rest of the list looks solid. Let's see some more of those great batreps!

Burizan · Post by **Burizan** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:58 pm

You are paying 50 points for the deathmask. I have done this before, but can never truly justify such a shocking price. You ahev also spent 50 points on a dark pegasus. If you drop these two you can upgrade to a dragon for 220 points, and you no longer need to hide from everything, just add a PoK to the sorceress and she will be mostly safe.

You may be reluctant to squeeze te points from your core choices, but I find dragon sorceresses are incredibly flexible units, and can protect whichever units you might end up dropping to support her.

Benji · Post by **Benji** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:00 pm

The list is for a tournament with a funny rulespack. The shields may well get moved to be on the x-bow men. but i need the spears to be worth 100points + and be at least 15 strong. The spearmen models also have the shileds on them and the rxb's don't. so for now they stay as they are.

Benji · Post by **Benji** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:06 pm

Burizan wrote:You are paying 50 points for the deathmask. I have done this before, but can never truly justify such a shocking price. You ahev also spent 50 points on a dark pegasus. If you drop these two you can upgrade to a dragon for 220 points, and you no longer need to hide from everything, just add a PoK to the sorceress and she will be mostly safe.

You may be reluctant to squeeze te points from your core choices, but I find dragon sorceresses are incredibly flexible units, and can protect whichever units you might end up dropping to support her.

The sorceress on dragon is too many points. I'm not going down that route. The deathmask is only 50 points, it stops a 6th turn terror test taking out 510pts. The pearls will probably be used at 2000pts but at 2250 there is room for the deathmask.

Iskiab · Post by **Iskiab** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:15 pm

List looks good, I'd agree with what someone else wrote though, your dark riders could use musicians if you can find the points.

Benji · Post by **Benji** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:49 pm

I don't agree on the Muso's.

Start taking notes on how many times your dark riders take rally tests and what the actual roll for rallying is. I bet there is hardly any time where the extra point of Ld is used.

With correct positioning you can ensure your riders flee into generals Ld range.

Rugi · Post by **Rugi** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:26 pm

I bet there is hardly any time where the extra point of Ld is used.

I´m very suprised about this statement. It happened so many times that I rolled a 9 on a rally test that I can´t even estimate the number. And apart from that it´s also great to run down a unit which didn´t have a musician, lost by one and fled.
IMO musicians are a must in any DE army. I put them EVERYWHERE I can.

O yes about the list. It is OK but not in my flavour. The only thing that really belongs into CC is hydra, assassin and nothing else.

Burizan · Post by **Burizan** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:44 pm

benji wrote:I bet there is hardly any time where the extra point of Ld is used.

With correct positioning you can ensure your riders flee into generals Ld range.

On your first point a musician (nearly) halves the chance you will fail a leadership test. Even if this is used once every 2 games this will be the best 7 points you ever spend. On top of that it gives you an edge in combat.

On your second point there is no reason that general's leadership can't be useful as well, particularly without a dreadlord. You also don't want your general to have to leap around so he be near your fast cavalry, or even just stick your dark riders near your general.

Post by **Calisson** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:07 pm

I'm wondering if the mounted lv2 actually needs to be level 2, or if lv1 is enough.

lv1 is only to be a scroll caddy which side role is casting a single spell. If you intend to go heavy on magic, take only levels 2 and 4.

Benji · Post by **Benji** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:38 pm

Rugi wrote:
I bet there is hardly any time where the extra point of Ld is used.

I´m very suprised about this statement. It happened so many times that I rolled a 9 on a rally test that I can´t even estimate the number. And apart from that it´s also great to run down a unit which didn´t have a musician, lost by one and fled.
IMO musicians are a must in any DE army. I put them EVERYWHERE I can.

O yes about the list. It is OK but not in my flavour. The only thing that really belongs into CC is hydra, assassin and nothing else.

If you are going into a combat where the Muscian will make a difference then you are doing something wrong.

Druchii77 · Post by **Druchii77** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:26 am

What is your plan for armored opponents like Chaos, Dwarves, and Bretonnia?

Benji · Post by **Benji** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:34 pm

I'm playing brettonians tonight so i'll let you know.

Armies that are heavily armoured are small in numbers normally. I'll shoot them up and magic them, not seeing combat until needed. The dark riders/shades combo with the hydra will beat most units.

Zakath the slaughterer · Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:32 pm

I think the list looks perfectly fine. I agree with you, benji, that musicians are rather opulent on Dark Riders

If you have the points, please do take them and feel secure but in a tight list I never take them because they are simply not needed. And remember kids, there's a huge, gargantuan, gaping difference between being useful and being needed. If I can help it, I don't take anything that I don't need.

benji, I'm a bit unsure about the Cloak of Twilight.. Do you think that you have enough PD to make the Cloak go through? I see you have built your Assassin around the Cloak but since its IMHO so easy to Dispel and thus render your 171pts. Assassin useless.

Benji · Post by **Benji** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:59 pm

The cloak is a bonus to be revealed late in the game. The assassin live in the shades normally. They can spend a couple of turns marching to get into position. 17" range on the stars is useful.

i'm going to make a log of how my DR's do regarding both muscians and shooting. I'm not sure 50 points on rxb's is a good investment.

Zakath the slaughterer · Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:24 pm

Okay, sounds sensible/logical. You have me convinced

I am too having a log of those and I recommend on doing that too. I play a lot against infantry heavy Empire, Dwarves, WE and Chaos so to me RxB's are mighty useful on DR. Their usefulness does depend on the opponent though (more than many other options, that is).

The log I have is the one reason I gave up using musos on most of my units, they are just not so often needed than it might first seem.

Rugi · Post by **Rugi** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:07 pm

Rugi said:
Quote:

I bet there is hardly any time where the extra point of Ld is used.

I´m very suprised about this statement. It happened so many times that I rolled a 9 on a rally test that I can´t even estimate the number. And apart from that it´s also great to run down a unit which didn´t have a musician, lost by one and fled.
IMO musicians are a must in any DE army. I put them EVERYWHERE I can.

O yes about the list. It is OK but not in my flavour. The only thing that really belongs into CC is hydra, assassin and nothing else.

If you are going into a combat where the Muscian will make a difference then you are doing something wrong.

Hmm... I really have to disagree. Dices can easily go wrong especially with units that have to roll a lot of atacks on 4+ or/and opponent has some kind of a save.
Lets say that you have 5 dark riders charging a flank of 6 empire knights. You have a musician and he doesn´t. The chance for you to inflict a wound on him is not that great but neither is his. He has outnumber and you have a flank. But you have a musician so he losses by 1.
Things like this accure all the time and sometimes there is just nothing else you can do other than make a charge that is 70% in your advantage.

I understand that you don`t need musicians if you generaly don´t flee much or you don´t practice bait and flee. But after 4 years with dark elves of which 3 years were with a MSU list I think that musicians would not be in my army anymore if I thought they are not worth the price. but for a absolutely cheap +1 to rally and to break draws IMO they are really a must for any unit not immune to psychology.

Benji · Post by **Benji** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:43 pm

I wouldn't charge 5 dark riders into 6 empire knight even if it is the flank. The only time you would do that is if you are desperate to hold them up. If that was the case then drawing and holding would have the same effect and the Mu is still not required.

In my game tonight 1 had 2 instances where a Mu MIGHT have been useful.

Pt 1. i fled from a charge and rallied next turn. I rolled a 5.

Pt 2. i charged 5 riders into 1 bret knight, did no wounds and won on out number. he held. I killed him next turn.

Both time the Mu wasn't needed. It's only a saving of 14 points across 2 units but it is the difference of getting a complete unit in a tightly screwed list.

I might be wrong on this so i will continue my log.

Tonights game i played vs Brettonians

I used;

Supreme Sorceress @ 410 Pts
General; Magic Level 4
Focus Familiar
Dispel Scroll
Deathmask
Dark Pegasus

Sorceress @ 192 Pts
Magic Level 2
Tome of Furion
Lifetaker
Dark Steed

Sorceress @ 160 Pts
Magic Level 2
Sacrificial Dagger

10 Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen @ 100 Pts

10 Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen @ 100 Pts

10 Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen @ 100 Pts

12 Dark Elf Warriors @ 72 Pts

10 Dark Elf Warriors @ 60 Pts

10 Dark Elf Warriors @ 60 Pts

5 Dark Riders @ 85 Pts

5 Dark Riders @ 85 Pts

5 Harpies @ 55 Pts

5 Harpies @ 55 Pts

5 Shades @ 90 Pts
Great Weapon;

2 Reaper Bolt Thrower @ 200 Pts

1 War Hydra @ 175 Pts

We played a throne of skulls scenario and roll up the table 1/4's one.

The table was heavily covered with terrain on the righ flank and open on the left with a building on the edge of my deployment zone on the open left flank.

I set up my 3 archer units across the open table, 2 bolt throwers on the extreme left, spears split across the back of my deploymnet zone and the dark riders wide on each flank. My opponent deployed all his knights on the open flank with the peg knights going on the right.

I went first and killed his treb with bladewind, shooting did little.

He rushed at my line and parked a few inch away from all my rxb's.

I stood my ground and shot him to bits, i caused 2 panic test from magic and 4 from shooting, (one on each of his main lances) All were passed, another 4 Terror tests saw 1 unit fleeing into dark riders.

The brets charged all my archer units and went through. the peg knights chased off some dark riders (see above

)

My hydra turn to face his lords lance, i open up with magic and bolt throwers again, i take out 3 small lances this turn, 2 or them wiped out completly and another not rallying and fleeing into dark riders.

The peg knights chase off harpies and the lords lance turns to face the hydra.

I charge him and do nothing (there was only 2 knights, mage and lord) the lord whips out his party trick and killing blows the hydra

He chases off the handlers through a forest and get LOS to my LV4.

In his turn he charges his lord at the LV4, i flee and rally next turn. My magic and shooting kill the lord

The last 2 turns see me keeping out the was and picking off his last 2 lances to below US5 and taking out the pegs.

I win the game 7-0 on scenario points. It was pretty much game over on turn 4 if it was a norml VP game.

What i found straight away was the Lv2 with dagger needs the Immune to psyc item. Eiter that or she needs to go in a larged spear unit. 12 is not enough, by turn 3 i could only kill 1 elf without suffering a panic test.

I'm not sure where the points can come from, I'll have a look tomorrow when i have some time to sit and figure it out.
edited individual points costs

Whobetta · Post by **Whobetta** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:48 am

your hydra got Killing Blow'd? is that possible? I thought multi wound monsters cannot be KB'd? did they have a special weapon that allows this? that seems extremely crazy!

- human · Post by **- human** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:21 am

your hydra got Killing Blow'd? is that possible? I thought multi wound monsters cannot be KB'd? did they have a special weapon that allows this? that seems extremely crazy!

Indeed they do have such an item (or is it a virtue?). It's pretty cool I think.

Interesting report. Looks like our AP shooting really does the trick against T3 tin cans.

Zakath the slaughterer · Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:45 am

It is a Virtue.

Well done in the Bret game, benji, I see you have used the crossfire rule to your benefit!

You didn't say anything about the Shades, didn't they have any effect on the battle, did they just die early or were they played out in some way?

Rugi · Post by **Rugi** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:55 am

I wouldn't charge 5 dark riders into 6 empire knight even if it is the flank. The only time you would do that is if you are desperate to hold them up. If that was the case then drawing and holding would have the same effect and the Mu is still not required.

Any knight unit should break any of my small unit (except black guards of course) if they charge it so they always have to be hold up. But if there is a chance not only to hold them up but also to destroy them for only 7 points...?

All in all, it just depends on the style of play if you like them or not.

Indeed they do have such an item (or is it a virtue?). It's pretty cool I think.

And more and more people use it know than it did in the past because of the popularity of steam tanks, bloodthirsters and hydras it seems

- human · Post by **- human** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:54 am

And more and more people use it know than it did in the past because of the popularity of steam tanks, bloodthirsters and hydras it seems

Yup, nothing wrong with that! We can't have everyone fielding big nasties without a care in the world, now can we?

Benji · Post by **Benji** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:57 pm

Its a pretty common virtue round these parts. I still charged though as i thought i'd kill the 2 knights and auto break the characters if no killing blow. To be honest i should have burned and shot them.