Temple of Khaine

[Dangerous Beans]

@DA - yeah good point: I was imagining a Death Hag joining a unit with the masters during deployment but of course that has no bearing in this list...

@GeOrc - you mention repeated problems facing the Wraiths and that they were always doubled up with another unit: how do you plan on beating that if you were to face it again? I assume using the masters with magic weapons - though the wraiths are faster and more manouvrable so surely they could choose to ignore your masters?
Also, as an aside - hows the project with the Chaos Dwarves going? I remember some of the awesome concept art and the sculpts that were going on but sadly didnt have the proper time to dedict a reasonable contribution to the project: any word on its progress? I vaguely recall that some of the forum members from the Chaos Dwarf forum were going to give a stab at their own version of a list, though it wasnt as well organised as your project - heard anything from them eitrhe?

- Beanz

[Dark Alliance]

hi DA,
I had a very nice game which end in a draw with only 110 pts difference for my opponent.

I deployed this way: (sorry for not knowing all english unit names)

Vargulf, Death Knights with Death lord BSB, 4 Wraiths and Banshee, zombies, 20 Knights on foot - behind them 10 skeletons with caster vampire lvl 3 and necromancer, 20 zombies

Hydra, 5 witches - behind them 12 Executioniers, 14 corsairs with SSS, 20 spearman with warbanner + assassine, 12 black guard, 15 spearmen with cold blood banner, 5 witches

2 coudrons and 2 x 5 harpies behind the units.

That all sounds reasonable. The Hydra is a good match up for the Varghulf imo, each have regen so it will always go down to dice, but having it tied up is better than having it roam. Also, tagging the Corsairs with the Exes at deployment was good strategy and ought to have worked against the Black Knights.

Wraiths = a problem unfortunately


Tops
- Assassine !! 20 warriors pinned the 20 Death Knights on foot. The assassine killed 3 of them, 2more from the spears with no hits and with a lot of passive boni I won by 6 or so.
awesome, Next turn my Executioners charged in his flank.
- The corsairs pinned his death knights on horses and my master was able to kill the banshee which charged in turn 2 of the CC. Unfortnatla I lost the CC and loose frenzy, the next turn they flew cause of unit strenght of fear causers.
- The executioners, + 1 A and they killed the whole unit of Death knights in their back only the BSB survived but then they were killed by the wraith
- Hotek Ring ends two time the magic phase
- Banner of Nagarythe was really good

Flops
I had a lot of bad luck with my dice.
- The hydra was pinned by the vargulf for the whole game. I made only a few wounds and my opponent was able to save every regeneration dice and I was only able to save the hydra by giving her 5+ ward save.. Also some withces who charged ion the vargulf flank wasn´t able to turn this CC.
- The wraith were a curse. They killed the corsairs, the executioners and the warriors with warbanner. Never alon always with a second unit as support.
- magic, My opponent spoke nearly every round the lvl 6 spell and raises a lot of ghost bases which pinned the black guard over 5 rounds. 3 units blocked the central battlefield and only one master with magic weapon left.
- No chance to do something against raising troops and healing his wounded characters.

These experiences will always happen against this army as there is little in our list to deal with ethereal creatures, or to stop his magic. Black Guard are probably the best option for when he raises Spirit Hosts.

Sounds like you played the game in the correct way for most of it though, so that is good news.

But all in all a very nice game which I could win with more experince a better deployment. The witch elf unit on the left flank was useless the whole game. It would have been better to put her on the left side to the other one.
The hydra and the corsairs where not in range of the Banner of Nagarythe. With it they had hold a turn longer cause I lost the CC by one. I think this was the most important part of the game. The corsairs flee and I had the wraith and knights in the flank and lost my master as weapon against the wraiths.
Ergo I should take care that my troops were more compact and I should control the franzy corsairs better.

This is good to hear because it is important to learn from mistakes, and you seem to clearly be doing that.

The list is fantastic and a lot of fun as soon as the slaughter starts.

Also good to hear. It's a game after all and we do it to have fun!
Kind Regards Georc

[Dark Alliance]

These are our thoughts:

1. Unit sizes - the Witch Elf units are too small and too easy to kill. A single magic missile, a few bows or rifle shots and they can be easily taken out. Sure the frenzy means they won't panic from a distance, but it also means that they could easily die in combat and thus negate any additional benefit from the banner.

The Corsair, BG and Exes unit sizes were all borne out of my adjusting points around to try and get the various trinkets and toys in you either wanted or are willing to allow, rather than out of true planning, so now we have had time to look at it in more detail we have some suggestions and theory for you to consider.

2. Characters - the Khainite rule really does cause more problems than it solves when you try to put a reasonably viable list together using this theme. The unit we really want to protect with magic items is the Executioner unit but we are somewhat screwed over in doing that because of this rule.

My thoughts so far have centred quite heavily around protecting the units from low casting level magic missiles, and in so doing have deflected my thoughts away from a number of other options we should consider. The magic resistance is great but once an opponent realises that the large spear block and the BG have MR, it just directs them with even more eagerness to decimate the Executioners and light units insted. So I think we need to re-evaluate how we are spending the points.

Kel also questioned why we are bothering spending points on armour for the Master in the BG unit, as this can save further points which we can use elsewhere.

3. Specific problem areas -

- Inbound missiles both mundane and magical
- Skirmish, non-engagement armies
- Delivering our troops to the combat zone whilst maintaining as much of their combat efficacy as possible

This is what we are now turning our focus to in order that we can achieve some kind of rounded battle strategy for you to build your experience upon.


So, time to move on to a combination of our thoughts and a tweak to the list.

Devastation of Khaine version two

Death Hag (General) - COB 200pts
Death Hag (BSB) - COB 350pts
Master - soulrender, 2 null talismans 125pts and he leads the BG. You will see that we have stripped him of his armour, which we also see as a fluff issue. If the Death Hag leading the army can fight without armour then so should he!
Master - crystal of midnight, sword of battle 130pts there are two other possible combinations we could look at for the second master:-

Master with pendant of khaleth, sword of battle, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak and shield or

Master with seal of ghrond and sword of battle

This hero, in whatever combination you choose, is a floating one who can be deployed where we see best. I'm liking the sword of battle for the extra attack over the sword of might for the extra strength, simply because of Wraiths and Spirit Hosts. They are t3 so as he is already wounding on 3s I think the extra attack will really help. Maybe the mathmeticians out there will be able to advise statistically which is better.

My favourite option is the pendant guy as he can really stand up to these bad boys but we would be relying on him always wounding at least once so as to hopefully not autobreak from the fear outnember.

If you choose either of these two extra option we will need to slightly tweak the list to fit him in.

Let me know your preference.

20 Warriors - full command, shields, war banner 180pts
15 Warriors - full command, shields, cold blooded banner 135pts I am thinking about dropping the command on this unit and giving this banner to the Executioners. We will think about that a little more over the next few days.
10 Corsairs - standard, sea serpent standard 135pts
10 Corsairs 100pts
5 Harpies 55pts
5 Harpies 55pts

Assassin - manbane, rending stars 145pts As we agreed

10 Witch Elves 100pts
11 Black Guard - standard, tower master, ring of hotek, banner of Hag Graef 231pts
11 Executioners 132pts

Hydra 175pts

We have reconfigured the Corsairs into 2 units of 10 so that we now have a very effective missile screen which can stretch across the front of the whole battleline if necessary, and thus frees up the Harpies for use elsewhere - perhaps to protect our flanks and rear in the appropriate situation.

The Witch Elves have become one unit which means they will remain a more viable threat. We would expect to lose a number as we advance and this is why I generally deploy them in a single line 10 wide. They can be very effective at benefitting from the Enemy in the Way rule in this formation against the skirmish armies. More on that later.

So, does the list help towards solving our list of problem areas?

I would like to believe so yes. This is one of the rare instances where I think the Crystal of Midnight could well be useful in cutting down an enemy magic phase. Granted we still need a dice roll to go our way to make it work but the whole game is about dice anyway Careful selection of the wizard you target will be necessary though so it will be important to think carefully about the spells your opponent has. Would be useful on a block of Horrors in a Daemon army for example, as it is invariable the low level spells which hurt us.

Larger units of WEs, splitting the Corsairs into 2 units for screening and freeing up the Harpies helps us to address the other 2 problems on our list, as do the rending stars.

Kel came up with a generic deployment model which looks like this from left to right:

spears / WEs with Corsairs in front and COB behind -- BG in the centre -- Executioners / spears with Corsairs in front and COB behind. The Hydra to go on whichever flank you think is best. Use it as a hammer. Harpies sit behind the screens as well. One unit each side.

Tell me what you think, which Master you prefer as the second support character and we can talk some more. Hope you like our thoughts

[Lord Veshnakar]

Something that I strongly recommend you try out. An assassin with additional hand weapon, manbane, and rending stars in a unit of 10 corsairs with handbows and full command. I use this as a flanking unit, missle screen, and charge diverter with a nasty surprise if they get charged (a ton of stand and shoot shots coming their way and then a manbane assassin striking first to deal with) and an excellent launch pad for the assassin to stay in for protection if need be, as corsairs can always move and shoot as well.

I might be a bit biased though. I'm a b***h for handbow corsairs.

[Keledron]

LK in this particular build missile troops are being deliberately avoided and I advocated a similar approach with the corsairs at present with GeOrcs requirements thay aren't an option to explore here DA and I will probably make another thread to look at this type of solution where the limitations are less restrictive than with GeOrcs prefernces.

[Georc]

Hi DA,

some thoughts:

1.) Unit size

The witch elfs,
There are two options
- the opponent shoot or magics at them, thy will die but that means also that he won´t shoot or magic on something more important
- the opponent ignore them, means that he will get problems if they get in close combat.

In my games until now I aleays count them as losses and I´m happy if they do someting useful but I didn´t count on that. More important the opponent have to count on them and can´t ignore them in any way. Shure 2 x 7 would be better but this is a point problem.

BG, EX,
are to small especially against shooting. BG is less a problem due to IgP but the Exces alway suffer from shooting. That´s why I often screen them or let them walk behind the main battleline of masive units for some later support in the game.

CO,
I think these were fine with 14 and frenzy banner, it´s a unit with a lot of fun potential and it can be very evil against your opponent. Then use 2 x 10 and use them as screeners it would perhaps better to drop the frenzy banner?


2.) Characters.
This is also a point I thought a lot the last days. From the beginning most of them were created to carry the needed magic items to solve the problem with magic and shooting

In all configurations I had spent about 1000 pts in characters and wasn´t able to create a perfect set up which protect all units. It´s also question if we have to protect all against everything. I think no cause we can´t and we should count that in that helps you to save points and put these in our units. Tha´s why I like Khels Idea with the master with no armour. I think especially in the Character section we should look very carefully what´s needed and where we can save points.

3. Specific problems:

- Inbound missiles both mundane and magical
I think our current Idea with two times magic resistance is really good. We can´t save all means we should concentrate on to save the most important. In my eyes the BG and the 20 warriors with warbanner.

- Skirmish, non-engagement armies
Without fast units or magic we can´t solve this problem. Perhaps we should drop the thought to find something against that and accept that the list will have it´s problems against such armies.

- Delivering our troops to the combat zone whilst maintaining as much of their combat efficacy as possible
I think this is the point we should concentrate on and find a balance between unit strenght and protection through characters and their magic items.

Remeber there is no need to create a list which win games, more to have a nice game and don´t loose everytime. I´m absolut happy with a draw as I get the change to kill a lot enemies in close combat.


The list:
Remembers me much of my privious list where I tried that with 2x 10 corsairs as screeners. I had much problems here. My opponent magics at the corsairs and kill 2-4 which have to be reduced from both sides and then he had sight of my expensive main units and in the shooting phase he killed a lot. This is especially a problem of Flamers and all other skirmishing shooters which can stand very compact, where all can shoot through a small corridor. The second problem I had with 10 wide units is that the movement is very difficult. They have to be deployed perfect because best is to push them straight forward, I you start to pan you need to much movement and slow down the whole army. I learned from that that errors in deployment are ot forgivable. Dealing with 3 units 10 wide (2xcorsairs and witch elfs) will be really difficult for me, also because of the frenzy. Two units are, means they are very good against shooting but a good player will pull them away and open my screen. Again two units to deal in this way will be very tricky to handle.
Next I had problems with how to deply when you haven´t a free central battlefield. For example I had a forest in nearly the middle of the battlefield and had to split my troops. I had much problems here because I wasn´t able to deploy compact and to protect all units with the ring of hotek... 10 wide units in front of the whole battleline enlarge this problem. Using a staged deployment always ended that my troops stand in their own way and I wasn´t able to get multiple close combats which were essential for this army

Next thing I concern about are the small sizes of the BG and EX. How said we can´t protect all, and there are always situations I can´t protect them so the best protection would be to be able to take away losses. Small Units can´t compensate that much.

Because of the master.
pendant will cost a second hero slot on ETC so saddly this won´t be an option here. ABout the other two I will talk later.

Because of the new list. There are some ideas I really like but also a lot of concerns I have. Here some of my own thoughts.

In the moment I think the core section is very good and I like the troops a lot espcially the ranks and the lot of passiv boni they get. The mass helps me to compensate losses from magic and shooting and in close combat the passive boni are essential.
The hydra is also a must have, no changes here.
Means left are characters and elite to share points and to do some changes.

Elite:
2 x 5 Witches
11 Exces
In them moment they play a support role on the battlefield so I think small units could do the job. For the same points we could have 1 x 7 Witches and 2 x 7 Exces. Which could do the job as good as our current set up. With it I have two units with armour save instead of 1. Loosing one unit of exces will mean having one in reserve. Screen them and protect them from magic and shooting I have to do now as well. Perhaps this would be a better combination than our current one together with 12 BG.

Because of the characters:
2 couldrons are a must have also then banner of nagarythe. The rest will be optional. I see different options here:

2 CoB 2 masters
2 CoB 1 Master one BSB
2 CoB 1 HB

I think all can work and depend on the style played with the rest of the army, especially protection from screeners like corsairs. In your current list idea you put the master with null talismans in the BG means ring and MR is in one unit concentrated. I like the idea spread it over the battlefield from the old setting much more. Nether the less the MR was for example useless in my vampire game shows me it won´t work against all kinds of spells so it should be perhaps one element of our magic defense but perhaps not our only one like in the old list. Alternatives like the crystal and the seal of ghrond would be very good and I agree to give them a try.

But If put them into the blackguard I would propose a different setting:

Master, crystal or seal, soul render

and give the magic resistance to one which is able to protect the unit which needs it most depending from deployment.
Alternatively if you only want to protect the unit from magic missiles the ring of darkness would be an option but then he had no magic weapon.

This master would also have the advantage that he could be deployed in a unit of corsair screeners. Reducing BS of the enemy by half, 4+ Armoursave, 5+ ward save protects you against every shooting. After turn 1 he change position into the unit behind which could be BG or something that need protection from shooting. Reducing WS by half too is also a good protection in close combat but won´t help againt wraiths.

Also something to think about, a single HB instead of two masters. Perhaps with:

HB:
- crystal or seal
- pendant
- blood armour or null talisman
- soulrender

but he won´t help to spread different protections over different units. But I think that the current list has the same problem putting MR and Ring of Hotek in one Unit. Perhaps we should screen the BG and use the charakters to protect other units like we did in the plan before. In the deplyment model of Khel I would prefer the ring of darkness for the BG which means that it is save against magic and shooting.

What do you think?

[Keledron]

GeOrc,

one thing I would suggest you do if you don't already is put the models down on a table and look at them and how you can arrange them I spend a lot of my time doing this when i develop an army as it helps me build up in my mind a picture of how I will deploy my army in any general terrain set up. often it is more important to understand how your units need to be positioned to allow your army to function rather than to worry overly about where your opponent places their own ubits.


This will be particularly useful for looking at how you should position and overlap the screening troops to avoid the situation you described with the casualties opening up an opportunity for your opponent to aim magic/missile fire at your key units. screens should always overlap if that's what units primarily are to be used for. Being prepared to acrifice troops is a key concept in gaming but you must always be aware of what the best value you can extract for that sacrifice is.

For instance giving up 100pts for loosing 2 small witch elf units makes no more difference in vps than loosing 10 corsairs but it will take only 2 volleys from 10 BS3 S3 archers to render the witches of no value as a screen and your combat troops may still be out of charge range however the same 20 shots directed at a corsair unit of 10 will leave 7 corsairs on the table still acting as a highly effective missile screen and a serious problem for the missile unit you have advanced against a nice bonus is on average you haven't had to take any psychology tests or exposed your combat troops to direct fire.

if I knew how to add a diagram I could explain this more clearly with the units you are using[/img]

[Georc]

Ok I understand and after some thinking about I like the idea more and more.

That means I should put the corsairs up like this

XXXXXXXXXX
_________YYYYYYYYYYY

X = corsairs
Y = franzied corsairs

Means that the screen broke if from X were more than 4 miniatures killed or if from X and Y were more than 3 miniatures killed.
That also means that I can control the release of the frenzied corsairs when taking away miniatures.

Rethinking your deplyment plan:

spears / WEs with Corsairs in front and COB behind -- BG in the centre -- Executioners / spears with Corsairs in front and COB behind. The Hydra to go on whichever flank you think is best. Use it as a hammer. Harpies sit behind the screens as well. One unit each side.

won´t really fit to the idea of screening and overlapping

____CCCCCCCCCC_BBBBBB_CCCCCCCCCC
SSSSS_WWWWW__BBBBB___EEEEEE_SSSSS
SSSSS_WWWWW___________EEEEE__SSSSS
SSSSS___________________________SSSSS
_________________________________SSSSS

I think I have exactly the problem described and should overlap the frenzied corsairs with the normal corsairs

______________CCCCCCCCCCBBBBBB_SSSSS
___CCCCCCCCCC_____SSSSS_BBBBB_SSSSS
____WWWWW_EEEEEE__SSSSS__CoB _SSSSS
____WWWWW_EEEEE___SSSSS________
__________CoB________SSSSS

My proposal with ring of Darkness would help to absorb a lot of shooting on the black guard and 5+ WS on BG and 20 spears would make the corsairs the only weak point in the line which is the best unit against the shooting.
Putting the Ring of Hotek on the left side of the BG unit would make sure everything is inside it´s range. Putting the second Master with MR into the non frenzied would help in the first turn to conter magic missiles and in the second turn he will chnge intor the 20 spearmen behind him.

Regards GeOrc

[Dark Alliance]

Having a Dreadlord will stop the COB from being the General which is something we want to avoid. You're quite right about the pendant though, I had forgotten about it taking up a hero slot. I also agree with switching the items over on the Masters so the crystal is in the BG along with Soulrender, and the floating character has the MR and the Sword of Battle.

Good to see you are coming to some of the same conclusions that we are, in that you simply cannot protect the whole army. I have a diagram for you which Kel did but I can't access Photobucket for some bizarre reason atm, so I'll put it up later.

[Georc]

Ok, sounds good,
some further note:

15 Warriors - full command, shields, cold blooded banner 135pts I am thinking about dropping the command on this unit and giving this banner to the Executioners. We will think about that a little more over the next few days.

Dropping the command would reduce the passive boni to 3 (2 ranks + banner form nagarythe) which isn´t very much for a defensive unit. Using the assassine here could help them or it´s the first unit we could drop and use the points elsewere because we allready have 3 core units.

Kind Regards GeOrc

[Dark Alliance]

Ok, sounds good,
some further note:

15 Warriors - full command, shields, cold blooded banner 135pts I am thinking about dropping the command on this unit and giving this banner to the Executioners. We will think about that a little more over the next few days.

Dropping the command would reduce the passive boni to 3 (2 ranks + banner form nagarythe) which isn´t very much for a defensive unit. Using the assassine here could help them or it´s the first unit we could drop and use the points elsewere because we allready have 3 core units.

Kind Regards GeOrc

That change would put them into use as a flanking force which could be effectively used with one of the other blocks. The idea is that if they lose a couple of points of generation, the combat still goes in the DE favour because you gain a flank charge, and you stop their rank bonus.

Anyway, here is the diagram for you to think about and then over the weekend we can tweak the list taking into account your preferences

[Dark Alliance]

Sorry about the blurriness of the image, Kel has been a bit of a tecno numpty today (to quote his words!) The drawing is to scale though so you can see the true areas of effect.

Kel will comment further on this diagram and any specific questions you have relating to it.

[Keledron]

Thanks DA.

GeOrc
The only point to note is the ring is the black dot not the red one I forgot to swop them round when I sent this to DA.

It sounds like you have grasped pretty well what I'm talking about I just abstracted it out further to show how it would work in it's entirety. It will take a bit of practice to set it up smoothly everytime but there is nothing to stop you measuring where you place your units during deployment

[Georc]

Ok some questions.

What to do if an obstacle or a wood is on the battlefield and force you to split your troops?

Deploy directly on the line of the deployment area or how much inch inside? Normaly I made this depending on my opponent, his movement and the range of shooting weapons. So that I force him to move his shooters if he get´s the first turn. I´m interested in what you do in such situations against different armies.

Regards GeOrc

[Keledron]

Right I wrote a long answer to this yesterday but lost it to an internal server error most irritating so todays response will be shorter.

Terrain the best option here is to try and look how you can turn the terrain piece into a part of your army a split deployment is a highly viable option with your army look at grouping your units into those that work well in tandem so a holding unit supported by a strike units with four screening units then you have the ability to set up two sets of screens you may loose some of the magical protection but by careful selection of which units are the most important in the game you are playing will allow you to judge which units to cluster around the Black Guard and those that are of less effectiveness against your opponent can be less well defended so letting them attack these less important units with magic or missile fire will infact strengthen your army as the units you have identified as the key ones will sustain lower levels of attrition before they get to the combat zone.

The exact nature of how I would split the army would be highly dependant upon my opponent but as a guiding thought I'd look at this as a starting position.

Black Guard, Hydra, larger Spears and BSB - these form my anvil

Witches, Executioners, smaller Spears and General - these form my hammer

The screens are made up from the harpy and corsair units arranged dependant upon the enemy threat and the terrain.

How far on to deploy is a matter of what I'm facing but as a general rule reducing you opponents options always helps far too many people think they must always deploy as far forward as possible glad to see you realise the value of holding back just a bit and making your opponent work hard to kill your troops.

Against a dwarven gunline for instance where magic is a non event I have been known to not move forward for several turns until my opponent runs out of patience and advances his troops I can now close quickly only allowing them one round of decent missile fire against the screening units before I attack, you certainly won't loose a game by doing nothing against this type of army it will be out of range with most weaponry and your losses will be very light unless you rush headlong at the guns.

Against an opponent reliant on magic close quickly make them throw more spells using more dice it is the best way to get the RoH to help you, if you allow your opponent to rely on low casting value spells then your magic defence will not be very effective as you need the probabilities to help you counter their strength.

This brings me to another topic dear to my heart and reflects on my personal style of play quite heavily its the maxim that there is a definate right time for everything in the game and a definate wrong time. Just because you can move forward should you? It's a judgement call that needs experience but it's a valuable point to keep in mind, think carefully about what the consequences of doing something might be and recognising what they are. As an aside there is nothing more irritating in a tournament game than when players start to move units then realise they have made a mistake and want to move them back, if you let them move them back you allow them to dictate the game if you don't you can come across as an unsporting opponent so to avoid this I work by this rule

When I choose to act, I act boldly don't be indecisive in your actions on the table top it will only give your opponent more confidence and work to unsettle your game if you are uncertain about something take a moment think it out and then act even if that is to do nothing.

[Dark Alliance]

Kel ISE is a bit of a site problem at the moment, so save what you type before you submit.

[Geoguswrek]

maybe the mathematicians out there will be able to advise which is better

Ok then.
I'm not going to list formulae, just results
Without the cauldron blessings, the SoB does an average 0.15 more wounds a round. with the +1 attack, the two are identical.
Of course the killing blow blessing is more useful on the sword of battle (and is quite nice against wraiths).
Since the extra attack blessing is a given if you are gonna get into combat with Wraiths or spirit hosts, mathematically the SoM is better (since against things with an armour save it is a good way better than the SoB.
Sorry Gary, looks like i disagreed with you AGAIN.

[Georc]

@ Keledron,
thanks for the detailed answer.
I will try your psoposals in my next gasme tomarrow against Orcs and goblins.

@ DA,
some chnges because of the statiszic informations of geoguswrek?

Kind Regards GeOrc

[Keledron]

Orcs & Goblins should be an excellent opponent to try some of this out against as generally they are armies that have a bit of everything.

Best of luck

[Georc]

Just thought about playing a tournament with 1000pts.

Which Units of the existing 2250 pts army you would take with you?

I thought about:

Death Hag (General) - COB 200pts
Master - soulrender, null talismans 110pts

20 Warriors - full command, shields, war banner 180pts
10 Corsairs 100pts

11 Black Guard - standard, tower master, ring of hotek, banner of Hag Graef 231pts

Hydra 175pts

total 996 pts

Are there better cominations?

Regards GeOrc

[Keledron]

Swop the General to the Master and give him some armour with the spare 4 points. Make the hag a BSB at 1000 pts magic is less of a problem so the RoH is probably less useful especially as people will nly ever be throwing a maximum of 3 dice so I'd be prepared to drop it with the largish unit sizes. The BG are the only unit worth worrying about getting magicked and they have an effective MR(2).

Other than that give it a go.

[Dark Alliance]

@ DA,
some chnges because of the statiszic informations of geoguswrek?

Kind Regards GeOrc

No. I think we try as is for a couple of games each. I'm trying to line some games up for this weekend before we change anymore. I think we need to have some experiences to base further decisions on my friend.

[Dark Alliance]

I agree with Kel on the 1000pt list, looks like fun too!

In the main list don't forget to swap the MR/weapon combo over so you don't end up with them in the same unit as the ring.

Good luck today, looking forward to hearing all about it.

[Georc]

some last questions in preparing my game for this evening.
What to do best against fanatics?

GeOrc

[Dark Alliance]

Assuming you know how Fanatics work, the best thing to do is get one unit of harpies across the board as early as possible and release them (Fanatics) whilst the Night Goblins are still on his side of the table.

I would recommend you read his army book before the game to be certain of how the Fanatics work as some of their rules changed with their newer book.