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Temple of Khaine 
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Black Guard
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Hey DA if you get hags will you give them gifts?? Also how affective are the witch elves really? I was thinking of taking instead corsiars w/ HB in thier stead but im not sure.

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Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:51 am
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Highborn
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As long as they don't end up fighting fear causers then I think its a brilliant little idea I got there :twisted:

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Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:53 am
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Melikai The Wicked wrote:
Hey DA if you get hags will you give them gifts?? Also how affective are the witch elves really? I was thinking of taking instead corsiars w/ HB in thier stead but im not sure.


No gifts. They don't need them.

Let's remember why the WEs are there. Firstly because GeOrc wants to use them so we have to respect that. Secondly to add to the static combat res on offer from the banner. I ran them both 1 wide and 5 deep yesterday as I went into combat, so by adding a hag to the unit the enemy will not be able to kill any of the other WEs and so get easy combat res himself.

I like it.

As for fear causers, that's just something that has to be dealt with as and when. It's situational whether they will actually cause too much disruption to the plan so the worry of it is not a mojor concern at the moment.

And let's not forget that this list is more about theme, conversions and painting. GeOrc just wants to not lose all the time but accepts this list will never be uber competitive.


Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:59 am
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Of course! And even against fearcausers like undead and demons a 5 wide unit will dish out 16 attacks with a hag so not something they can ignore. I pointed it out so people would understand what they can do and what they can't do when deployed in a 1 wide formation. Now if only they were core if a death hag was your general....

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Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:17 am
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hi DA,
sorry for my late reply,
real life took all my time so this haf to wait.

About the assassine,
I really like the equipement which comes from my older list where the assassine was the protection of the hag bsb. Now as a support it could be equiped otherwise. for example with rendering stars and manbane.

About two hydras,
Yes that would be an option but with it I had to drop units and that´s something I dislike. An infantry army should look like an infantry army and so should have some masses on troops.

About deplyment and movement,
yes taht´s something I had to learn and work on. It´s very difficult to decied the positions and which unit you send to their death and which should slaughter the enemy. With this list losses are program and you are forced to rethink your tatic every turn and fit it to the troops left.

About your game gainst LM,
I also thought what the hell the master does in the execes ;) But it oos like this was no advantage and doesn´t change something on the final result.

The share blessings of blessings look like I have did in my game. In the beginning working with the +5w for protection and in the close combat give +1a to throw enough dices to kill in first round of combat or to have more hits in further rounds of combat after loosing the benfit of hate. Killing blow I only used one time in the end having the chance charging the enemy general.

The witch elfes were also very important in my games. Nether if the survive or die they play their role.
If they die the enemy ge´t only 50pts and concentrates magic or missile shooting on them and not on expensive targets.
If the survive and reach the enemy troops they very devestating with their many attacks and poison. Theye girls killed allready nurgle knights for me and put a war altar for 3 units out of the game through a flank charge. Small units of them like we play them are very important, I wished I could take more of them.

The banner of nagarithe,
I get a lot of critic using the banner this way. Many ppl will only give one time the +1 bonus each combat. Without FAQ they won´t accept giving each unit in combat +1. Any chance for some official statement about the rules for the banner.

Forcing enemy unit in CC with the cauldron,
I know this is a general used tactic from demons using the sirene song. How is it here? Also I need a very small unit in contact with the cauldron to touch both units. I also found something in the rule book about thatcase if a enemy unit declares a charge and touch more enemies than the destination unit. I used this only one time in a game to protect my hydra against a dragonrider. So I put both side by side to get in clip attack if the dragon wouldn charge the hydra. Was this ok from rule side?

More rules to concern, what about the witch elf conga with priestess in the front. Is this a general accepted playing or worse tricks your opposite hates you for?

About your points of concern. These were also my thoughts about the list. But how allready said it isn´t competitive in every case. It´s important son´t to loose every game not to win every one with a massacre.

So you still have the chance to remove miniatures everytime you have no chance to conter with MR or Ring of Hotek, even if this hurts.

About the assassine. I think too tha´t the shooting assassine would be a good addition. Nethertheless he still have 4 attacks with manbane which is good in combination with stand and shoot with your stars you have 7 attacks, the same as with the rune of Khaine. I would go for that.

About the hag pristesses, here you should teach me more about the tactics behind playing it this way.

Many thanks again for your help and the time you put into this.

kind Regards GeOrc


Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:15 pm
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GeOrc wrote:
hi DA,
sorry for my late reply,
real life took all my time so this haf to wait.

No worries.

About the assassine,
I really like the equipement which comes from my older list where the assassine was the protection of the hag bsb. Now as a support it could be equiped otherwise. for example with rendering stars and manbane.

OK good, I will rewrite the list with a few tweaks then. :D

About two hydras,
Yes that would be an option but with it I had to drop units and that´s something I dislike. An infantry army should look like an infantry army and so should have some masses on troops.

OK, it was just a thought. No worries if you don't want to change.

About deplyment and movement,
yes taht´s something I had to learn and work on. It´s very difficult to decied the positions and which unit you send to their death and which should slaughter the enemy. With this list losses are program and you are forced to rethink your tatic every turn and fit it to the troops left.

I will put some thought into generic deployment plans for you, and some first turn thoughts against varying enemy builds, over the next week.

About your game gainst LM,
I also thought what the hell the master does in the execes ;) But it oos like this was no advantage and doesn´t change something on the final result.

The share blessings of blessings look like I have did in my game. In the beginning working with the +5w for protection and in the close combat give +1a to throw enough dices to kill in first round of combat or to have more hits in further rounds of combat after loosing the benfit of hate. Killing blow I only used one time in the end having the chance charging the enemy general.

The witch elfes were also very important in my games. Nether if the survive or die they play their role.
If they die the enemy ge´t only 50pts and concentrates magic or missile shooting on them and not on expensive targets.
If the survive and reach the enemy troops they very devestating with their many attacks and poison. Theye girls killed allready nurgle knights for me and put a war altar for 3 units out of the game through a flank charge. Small units of them like we play them are very important, I wished I could take more of them.

The banner of nagarithe,
I get a lot of critic using the banner this way. Many ppl will only give one time the +1 bonus each combat. Without FAQ they won´t accept giving each unit in combat +1. Any chance for some official statement about the rules for the banner.

The confusion arises because in 6th edition there was an faq relating to the dwarven rune which granted a similar bonus. This is now non-existent as we are in 7th edition!

Simply quote word for word what it states in the DE army book. It is quite clear that EVERY unit gets the banner bonus. Don't feel bad about this, geez you are playing with a list which has no magic and virtually no shooting! Your opponents should feel bad for trying to cheat you by denying you this bonus. Stand your ground you are doing nothing wrong.

I have played several games myself with banner in a much, much harder tournament style list and had no problems counting the full banner bonuses.


Forcing enemy unit in CC with the cauldron,
I know this is a general used tactic from demons using the sirene song. How is it here? Also I need a very small unit in contact with the cauldron to touch both units. I also found something in the rule book about thatcase if a enemy unit declares a charge and touch more enemies than the destination unit. I used this only one time in a game to protect my hydra against a dragonrider. So I put both side by side to get in clip attack if the dragon wouldn charge the hydra. Was this ok from rule side?

Yes it is fine.

More rules to concern, what about the witch elf conga with priestess in the front. Is this a general accepted playing or worse tricks your opposite hates you for?

It is acceptable. Your Hag cannot be replaced once she dies so it only protects the unit for one turn. Where it becomes irritating for an opponent is when it is an Undead player doing this trick, where the unit champion can be raised back each turn.

About your points of concern. These were also my thoughts about the list. But how allready said it isn´t competitive in every case. It´s important son´t to loose every game not to win every one with a massacre.

So you still have the chance to remove miniatures everytime you have no chance to conter with MR or Ring of Hotek, even if this hurts.

About the assassine. I think too tha´t the shooting assassine would be a good addition. Nethertheless he still have 4 attacks with manbane which is good in combination with stand and shoot with your stars you have 7 attacks, the same as with the rune of Khaine. I would go for that.

About the hag pristesses, here you should teach me more about the tactics behind playing it this way.

OK, I will comment more in the days to come. When is your next game?

Many thanks again for your help and the time you put into this.

You are welcome. I won't get chance to try the changes out for a week or so as real life has me doing other things for a while.

One last thing. This is an artificially weakened tournament army you are trying to work. There are a lot worse things we could do in the movement phase which would make life miserable for your opponent, but we aren't doing that. So when your opponents start complaining because they are losing to a list which looks easy on paper - enjoy it and remind them that we are playing totally by the rules!


kind Regards GeOrc


Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:13 pm
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Hi DA,
everything sounds good. I´m looking forward to the new list. There is no need to hurry because I have some problems in real life which needs my full attention and so less time for the hobby the next two weeks.
If I will be able to play a game this week I don´t know, next week for sure.

Again some rules stuff.

Because of the banner I think so too. The list is very fluffy so ppl shouldn´t complain about this. Nethertheless it would be good if someday GW would clear this in their next FAQ

Because of the congas, and forcing the enemy to a charge by contact with a second unit. This is something which is discussed very different here in Germany. How you perhaps know from Akito we play normaly very restricted and things like congas and all the movement tricks with them are against playing codex. So this will be a much harder discussion with my opponents.

But I will try out the these actions and will see what ppl will say.
I´m interested in learning more about your deployment and movement plans, so feel free to explain me as much as you can as soon as you have time.

Many thanks for your help

Kind Regards GeOrc


Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:28 pm
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If conga lines(ie. with a champion in front) is something that is generally not acceptable then you should follow those guidelines and then you won't have to worry about it being used against you either :) But this is something very different than the bonus from the banner as the wording of the rule is quite clear, people are properly just not used to seeing it.

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Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:45 pm
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I hear what you say about congas, but you have a self-restricted list. IMO, having a single file unit of 5 WEs with a hag at the front is no different a tactic to having them 5 wide, with the hag on the end and offering a tempting flank charge to an opponent.

As I said before, it's kinda considered kinda cheesey when it is undead because of the raising.

As for ETC, our reluctance to congas is more because of the slingshotting of Fanatics, not what we are looking at doing here.


Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:22 pm
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Hi DA,
Tomarow I have my next game gainst vampires. any tips for deployment and what to look for?

Regards GeOrc


Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:19 am
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Do you know what is in his list?


Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:24 am
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No, Only thing I said to him is that the arym list shouldn´t be to hard, so I hope no dragons or such things.

Regards GeOrc


Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:31 am
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GeOrc wrote:
No, Only thing I said to him is that the arym list shouldn´t be to hard, so I hope no dragons or such things.

Regards GeOrc


For reference, when you play these test games you should ensure they play by ETC rules when designing their list. No double rare, triple special and so on. Watch how many power dice he uses, and bound items as well as power stones because they all count towards the maximum allowed.

Remember too that the Helm of Commandment will take up a hero slot if it is on a Lord IIRC.

The threats to look out for are:

Helm of Commandment
Varghulf
Wraiths -
there is no limit on the size of these units for ETC so these will be a big problem for our list. The magic weapons are the only real way you have of dealing with them, and even then, if he has any sense he will just raise them back again. You will need to think very carefully about trying to deflect these in some way if you can.
Blood Knights - doubt he will use these but remember they are frenzied so can be easily led off by the harpies.
Drakenhoff Banner - takes up a hero slot and will either be in Knights or Grave Guard if he has a BSB.

Vampires get hit quite badly by the ETC comp. There were some recent changes though but as twf is down at the minute I can't access the rules pack to check it out. They are certainly not as hard as they could be under normal rules.

Combat res and massed attacks are your friends in this game. The size of the list will cause him concern as he cannot bring the helm to bear in all the places he will need to if you strike with multiple combats at the same time. Against Undead you should be able to fully benefit from the 2 COBs as there is minimal ranged missiles coming at you. You have immunity to fear and the ability to help with fear tests (cold blooded banner remember), and the cauldrons can kick out the extra punch needed.

Don't forget the Banner of Nag too. Fighting in a close knit MSU style you will certainly feel how good these combos we have can be. Remember that killing blow can not be regenerated...

Good luck my friend.

(I got the email btw. Thank you very much) :D


Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:09 am
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Yo guys - really great thread: loved the ideas and some really great tips that are being flown about: I'll have to try the old dual CoB BSB/General trick - thought for a while about the uses of Banner of Nag - I often popped my bsb with it on a chariot and plonked that in the middle of my footsloggers so that way you have a rather tough (T5 3+As 4 Ws) unbreakable chariot that supports all the nearby infantry as well as being an ideal flank-buddy for popping into enemy flanks when the infantry get the charge! That said though the 12" multiple 'auras' from BSB/Generals Ld/cauldron stubbornness/+1 CR is really really cunning! Id never thought of having my CoB as general!

Anyway onto the reason I'm really writing - theme and character: something this lift richly adheres to - been having a little ponder about the Witchbrew and alternate units/character debate - I've posted my brief thoughts on it now, but if it seems logical to have characters that join the withbrewed unit(s) during deployment should gain the benefits (including sneaky things like assassins!) then what about popping your masters in witchbrewed units next to their 'strategic' unit (that they then join in turn 1 as its where theyre supposed to be).

Actually now I write that it seems really rather lame from a strategic point of view - which is really what this thread is about - getting the most playability (ie. not get massacred) from a strictly characterful list...

Also the witchbrewed masters would be a 'historically' appropriate action, the gaming implications of it would screw you over somewhat as itd delay your race across the table and would also confine you to putting witchbrewed units next to the units that the masters would later join (as fits the masters roles)

ah dear - I think I blah on far too much sometimes... :oops:

I really dig the list though! :D It would be sweet to add in that incredible hellebron manticore miniature you sculpted/painted - what a centrepiece thatd be! :shock:

- Beanz

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Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:19 pm
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Hey Beanz, the problem is that Masters cannot join Khainite units.

I haven't had time to rewrite the list yet but will most likely give stars to the Assassins and a Hag with Witchbrew to one of the WE units at least.


Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:32 pm
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GeOrc how did the game go today?

I have been having a long conversation with Keledron today about the list. Just want to see how you got on against Undead and then I'll post up some new thoughts we have had.


Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:12 pm
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hi DA,
I had a very nice game which end in a draw with only 110 pts difference for my opponent.

I deployed this way: (sorry for not knowing all english unit names)

Vargulf, Death Knights with Death lord BSB, 4 Wraiths and Banshee, zombies, 20 Knights on foot - behind them 10 skeletons with caster vampire lvl 3 and necromancer, 20 zombies

Hydra, 5 witches - behind them 12 Executioniers, 14 corsairs with SSS, 20 spearman with warbanner + assassine, 12 black guard, 15 spearmen with cold blood banner, 5 witches

2 coudrons and 2 x 5 harpies behind the units.


Tops
- Assassine !! 20 warriors pinned the 20 Death Knights on foot. The assassine killed 3 of them, 2more from the spears with no hits and with a lot of passive boni I won by 6 or so.
awesome, Next turn my Executioners charged in his flank.
- The corsairs pinned his death knights on horses and my master was able to kill the banshee which charged in turn 2 of the CC. Unfortnatla I lost the CC and loose frenzy, the next turn they flew cause of unit strenght of fear causers.
- The executioners, + 1 A and they killed the whole unit of Death knights in their back only the BSB survived but then they were killed by the wraith
- Hotek Ring ends two time the magic phase
- Banner of Nagarythe was really good

Flops
I had a lot of bad luck with my dice.
- The hydra was pinned by the vargulf for the whole game. I made only a few wounds and my opponent was able to save every regeneration dice and I was only able to save the hydra by giving her 5+ ward save.. Also some withces who charged ion the vargulf flank wasn´t able to turn this CC.
- The wraith were a curse. They killed the corsairs, the executioners and the warriors with warbanner. Never alon always with a second unit as support.
- magic, My opponent spoke nearly every round the lvl 6 spell and raises a lot of ghost bases which pinned the black guard over 5 rounds. 3 units blocked the central battlefield and only one master with magic weapon left.
- No chance to do something against raising troops and healing his wounded characters.

But all in all a very nice game which I could win with more experince a better deployment. The witch elf unit on the left flank was useless the whole game. It would have been better to put her on the left side to the other one.
The hydra and the corsairs where not in range of the Banner of Nagarythe. With it they had hold a turn longer cause I lost the CC by one. I think this was the most important part of the game. The corsairs flee and I had the wraith and knights in the flank and lost my master as weapon against the wraiths.
Ergo I should take care that my troops were more compact and I should control the franzy corsairs better.

The list is fantastic and a lot of fun as soon as the slaughter starts.
Kind Regards Georc


Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:56 pm
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Excellent, well done. I will comment more tomorrow, but so far we have 2 wins and 1 draw for the list. Not a bad start at all.


Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:47 pm
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@ DA,
I think with a bit more luck against the vargulf and a better positiing of the Banner of Naggarythe I could easily win this game. I made two bigger mistakes. My corsairs have to charge the Mounted Death Knights and were then isolated because I didn´t support them with the banner of Nag. The second one was that I didn´t support the warriors with warbanner with the black guard because I thought Execes and Spearmen should finish them.

A better player wouldn´t make this mistakes.
So I think it´s a really good draw.

I´m looking forward to your comments and the result of the debate with keledron. Also I´m interested in seeing how the list will change after our first sucesses.

Kind Regards
GeOrc


Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:48 am
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GeOrc or DA:
Could you post the list used against the vampire counts?
I saw some indications, but not all.
I'm just curious as I'm trying new things and I like the feel of the list.
Thanks.

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Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:00 am
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The Devastation of Khaine

Death Hag (General) - COB ... 200pts
Death Hag (BSB) - COB, Banner of Nagarythe ... 350pts
Master - heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, 2 Null Talismans, Soulrender ... 133pts
Master - heavey armour, sea dragon cloak, shield, Sword of Might, 2 Null Talismans ... 135pts
Assassin - additional hand weapon, manbane, rune of khaine ... 146pts

20 Warriors - full command, shields, War Banner ... 180pts
15 Warriors - full command, shields, Banner of Cold Blood ... 135pts
14 Corsairs - full command, Sea Serpent Standard ... 190
5 Harpies ... 55pts
5 Harpies ... 55pts

5 Witch Elves ... 50pts
5 Witch Elves ... 50pts
12 Black Guard - full command, Banner of Hag Graef, Ring of Hotek ... 251pts
12 Executioners ... 144pts

Hydra ... 175pts


Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:06 am
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When is your next game? I'm going to get a couple of games in next Wednesday hopefully. I'll post a new version later today.


Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:36 pm
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I think next wednesday, this is our usual gaming day.

Regards GeOrc


Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:49 pm
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Ok good we have some time then. Kel and I have been discussing this in even more detail today, so I have quite a few things to relate to you which will take some time to write up. He has really bought into the concept.

Bear with us...


Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:10 pm
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Hi DA,
sounds very good, can´t wait to see what you have discussed.
Many many thanks to Keledron by the way. I won´t orget his engagement.

Kind Regards GeOrc


Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:33 pm
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