The Heartless - 11/09 - UKGT testing & minor changes

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Xizor
Chris Tomlin
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Post by Xizor »

Hey,

I did want to put up proper reports of the last 3 games, but its gone on a bit long now and I cant really be bothered!! Sorry, I have some games tomorrow and Ill do proper reports on them straight away. Ill probably write some thoughts about Warriors of Chaos at a later date aswell...

Game 4 vs Daemons of Chaos - 1578/1024 Minor Victory
Game 5 vs Warriors of Chaos - 1744/773 Solid Victory
Game 6 vs Daemons of Chaos - Massacre

All games went pretty well, with the 6th being the best, drawing a concession from my opponent on turn 5. I must admit I am just playing the same few people at the moment. There are loads of people stuck playing in a crappy looking campaign at the moment, which whilst being annoying at the moment, is a good thing, as there are loads of people playing WFB in the store, so variation will come.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Games Played: 6 / Won: 5 / Drawn: 1 / Lost: 0
Daemons of Chaos: 4 / Won: 3 / Drawn: 1 / Lost: 0
Wood Elves: 1 / Won: 1 / Drawn: 0 / Lost: 0
Warriors of Chaos: 1 / Won: 1 / Drawn: 0 / Lost: 0
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

100 posts in this topic aswell :)

Cheers,
Chris
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Xizor
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Post by Xizor »

Hey,

On tuesday I finally got a game vs that Wood Elf list DA suggested my mate use a while back. I am doing a report on this one, but firstly here is a reminder of my armylist;

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-The Heartless-
2,000 point Dark Elf Army

Karst Ether'Rage (Supreme Sorceress) - Level 4, Dark Pegasus, Focus Familiar, 2 Dispel Scrolls. (385)

Menardi Qel Droma (Sorceress) - Level 2, Dark Steed, Darkstar Cloak, Dispel Scroll. (197)
5 Dark Riders - Repeater Crossbows, Musician. (117)
5 Dark Riders - Repeater Crossbows, Musician. (117)

10 Repeater Crossbowmen - Shields. (110)
2 Reaper Bolt Throwers (200)

5 Harpies (55)
5 Harpies (55)
5 Shades (80)

6 Shades - Great Weapons. (108)
Cyuss (Assassin) - Additional Hand Weapon, Rending Stars, Manbane, Cloak of Twilight. (171)

6 Cold One Knights - Standard Bearer & Champion, Standard of Hag Graef. (229)
War Hydra (175)

Total; 1,999 points
Power Dice; 9 + Cloak of Twilight
Dispel Dice; 5 + 3 Scrolls

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Game 7 - vs Wood Elves

Like my previous game against Wood Elves, I was facing Dom. This time however he was using a better list, as provided by DA. I was shocked at how many models there are in this list - A lot for an Elf army (the exact number of models in each unit may be wrong);

Level 4 w/ 2 Scrolls, BSB w/ HoD, 3x10 Glade Guard, 3x8 Dryads, 5 Wild Riders, 2x7 Wardancers, 5 Waywatchers, Treeman.

Think thats it.
Im just gonna do a fairly brief roundup of this game, I can go into detail about specific things if asked.
My first turn started off fairly decently with shooting and magic hurting a couple of the Glade Guard units, causing one to panic. In his first turn the GG rallied. The Waywatchers got a sneaky charge on some Harpies, though I elected to hold. The Wild Riders stood off against the Knights (he knew what banner I was packing!), as did a unit of Dryads - this pretty much went on for the whole game with these three units. His magic phase drew 2 scrolls! I wasnt happy about that! I had moved my Level 4 into a wood (A Pegasus can choose to use ground movement and go into a wood right?) which was perhaps a bit stupid, but I figured I could contain his magic this game. Shooting saw the Hydras regen make a few saves, and a couple of RXBmen died. In combat the Waywatchers broke the Harpies but didnt chase. In my turn a positioned the Hydra to force a terror test on the level 4 who was now alone in the middle of a wood, I placed Harpies along what would be his flee path, so that Id destroy him if he did flee. the Assassin popped out aswell. Oh, and some Dark Riders charged the Waywatchers. Magic was rubbish, the level 2 took a wound and killed two rxbmen she was stood next to! Shooting wasnt much better, shot the rallied GG unit to death, and watched both Bolt Throwers miss the Treeman!! The Assassin did manage to knock 2 wounds off the big tree with his stars though. In combat the Dark Riders spooned horribly and died to the Waywatchers. So far they had killed 5 Harpies and 5 Dark Riders, losing only one of their number in return! His turn two was when it all started to go wrong. His level 4 passed the terror test, as did some Glade Guard. The Treeman charged the Shades (no GW in this unit) and Assassin, I decided to S&S, thinking that I might knock a couple more wounds off, and if I got lucky the Assassin could then finish him before he struck me. However, I failed Terror and ran away. his magic and shooting killed a RBT crewman, most of the other unit of Dark Riders, the remaining Harpies, a Knight, and a wound off the Hydra. I dont actually think anything happened in my turn 3! The Shades and Assassin rallied & the Hydra flamed some Glade Guard. Yup, thats it, the RBTs failed to even hit the Treeman; both rolling ones! In his turn some Wardancers charged the Hydra in the side - a charge I had overlooked, though it went ok as the Hydra got knocked down to 1 wound before eating 5 Wardancers and running the rest down. This was pretty much the end of any action in this game - oh except the HoD firing at the one wound Hydra, scoring 14 hits, but failing to kill the beast!! He did finally die to the other Wardancers. I shot everything I could into the Treeman who just refused to die, he just hid everything else assuming he'd won. I did finally kill the Treeman in the last turn, but only for about 10 seconds as Diesel reminded us he successfully got the Regen spell off on him last turn, so Dom pickedup his dice and rolled some saves. Nice. In his last turn he got some spell off on my level 4 doing D6 S5 or 6 hits on her, did a few, killing the Peg and taking a wound off her. Game over.


Victory Points; 707/981
Draw

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well I think I was really lucky to get a draw out of that (btw, do you get half points on an RBT from killing one crewman. If you do, add 50pts to his total and he gets a Minor). I never felt in control of the game; he handled my magic well, my RBTs were very poor (again), he removed my mobile threats early on, totally nulified the Knights and generally annoyed me by not letting me at anything! Had he not assumed the win and actually carried on properly, he would of won for sure - some irony in that perhaps. I, on the other hand was determined not to get my first loss so tried to get a draw back. Its a very tough list he has now, and Im hoping to sticks with it. A very frustrating, but good game.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Games Played: 7 / Won: 5 / Drawn: 2 / Lost: 0
Daemons of Chaos: 4 / Won: 3 / Drawn: 1 / Lost: 0
Wood Elves: 2 / Won: 1 / Drawn: 1 / Lost: 0
Warriors of Chaos: 1 / Won: 1 / Drawn: 0 / Lost: 0
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok so Im getting used to this list now, I like it a lot. The only thing Im unsure on are the Bolt Throwers. Im thinking of dropping one and some other bits and trying to squeeze in a PoK BSB in. I know swapping the Assassin for him would make more sense, but I like the assassin. Ive also been thinking about a Dragon over a Peg for the level 4...but that would require alot of tweaking. Im just worried by Terradons!! Um yeah...give me some thoughts.

Also, a friend of mine is back from Uni (for good) now and hopefully will start playing again, he is a pretty good player who came up to the GT Heats with me, DA and co a couple of years back and got a good placing (24th in his first tournament), so itll be good to have some another good opponent, and hopefully a tournament partner.

Thatll do for now, Ill go back to being hungover and watching Dickinson's Real Deal. Im cool :roll:

Have fun,
Chris
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Geoguswrek
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Post by Geoguswrek »

Adding a pendant bsb is a good idea, but i don't really like the dropping a peg to a dragon.
If you are short on decent hiding spots, at the moment you can go hide behind your own units, whereas on a dragon you take the sorc out of the game. It also costs a lot of points.
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Post by Xizor »

Hey,

Yeah thats what I wanted really, people to tell me its a bad idea! Last thing I want is to try and find a way to transport a Dragon around (not the best reason not to take one I know!). I guess Ill just have to deal with the Terradons. She hasnt died yet anyway, and the two games vs Wood Elves are the only ones where she may have had any form of worry really. Focus Familiar is awesome. Ok so that idea is scrapped then :)

The BSB will come to 177 if I kit him out fully, with the Sword of Might etc (is there a better magic weapon to have on him?). So its a Bolt Thrower and 76 other points to drop. Could lose the GW's from the shades, lose the 6th shade...still gonna be short. Ill look at it properly later
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Post by Geoguswrek »

The dragon doesn't help you deal with terradons that much. Your sorc is still as likely to die, all you gain is a hardier mount, and if the peg dies, you are ok anyway (just have to be more careful)
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Post by Xizor »

Yeah you are totally right mate, dunno why I thought it gave her more surviveability as it blatently doesnt!! and anyway, Id have to lose so much from the list to fit the Dragon in.

I do want this BSB, but am really unsure what to drop for him. The current points total is 1,999, meaning I need to find 176 points to fit him in. Lets take a look...

-1 Reaper Bolt Thrower =100 (100)
-6 Great Weapons from Shades =12 (112)
-1 Shade from larger unit =16 (128)
-5 Harpies =55 (183)

That gives me 7 points to spare. Id love to trim a few more and get GW's back on one of the Shade units; losing a Dark Rider musician or the shields off the Repeater Crossbowmen would work.

Im not totally happy with losing a unit of Harpies I must say, but cant really see any other way and I definately think Id like to get this character in.

What do you think?
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Post by Warpghost »

Good report, interesting to see that army, though too much like points denial for me to like. As for your RBT woes, I tend to see people either swear by RBTs as the best 100p for them ever, or swear at them as the easiest 100VP for the enemy ever. If they arent working for you as a pair, I dont see how just 1 is going to do any better.

To answer your questions:
1) Yep, fliers are quite at liberty to use their ground movement and enter terrain, even Large Targets. Just remember they cant use flight again until they've cleared the terrain, nor can they mix flight and ground movement in the same turn.
2) You can never get half VP for war machines, only full destruction counts for them; its one reason STanks are so reviled, they never give up half VP.
3) Sword of Might is an excellent choice of 15 points. Whip of Agony costs 10 points more, for added armour piercing and, because it is defined explicitely as a Beastmasters Scourge and thus is a hand weapon (one of the few magic weapons to do so), can also benefit from the hand weapon + shield armour bonus on foot. If you're not using that you'll find its generally 5 points overcosted though (no big deal, but its worth considering the Crimson Death otherwise). If adequately protected on foot, Soulrender is a pretty nifty use of 15 points too but some elf players are allergic to 'strikes last' weapons.
Just giving my Z$100bn.

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Post by Xizor »

Hey,

I think Ill stick with the Sword of Might. I only have 15pts to play with as he is packing the Pendant aswell.

As for Bolt Throwers, I do feel I need that threat in there, and even if nothing more than a slight deterent I reckon that a single machine does have some merit in the list. I would like to hear the opinions of others on this though? Maybe DA can chip in?

Thanks,
Chris
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Geoguswrek
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Post by Geoguswrek »

If you do the following
drop shades great weapons (12 points)
drop a shade (28 points)
drop an rbt (128 points)
drop a scroll (153 points)
drop shields on the rxb (163 points)
take a halberd instead of the sword of might.
done.
Just means he may have to wizard hunt in magic heavy games. If you are really fixated on the SoM then lose the DR's muso's
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Post by Dark Alliance »

Xizor wrote:Hey,

On tuesday I finally got a game vs that Wood Elf list DA suggested my mate use a while back. I am doing a report on this one, but firstly here is a reminder of my armylist;

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-The Heartless-
2,000 point Dark Elf Army

Karst Ether'Rage (Supreme Sorceress) - Level 4, Dark Pegasus, Focus Familiar, 2 Dispel Scrolls. (385)

My worries for you here are WoC with a strong Gateway caster, and Lizards with an Engine (or two :? ). As well as Daemons running 2 Heralds with Master of Sorcery. Beast Cowers will really screw your day over...

Menardi Qel Droma (Sorceress) - Level 2, Dark Steed, Darkstar Cloak, Dispel Scroll. (197)
5 Dark Riders - Repeater Crossbows, Musician. (117)
5 Dark Riders - Repeater Crossbows, Musician. (117)

10 Repeater Crossbowmen - Shields. (110)
2 Reaper Bolt Throwers (200)

To answer your later question, imo 2 RBTs or none at all. A simple choice really and my vote very definitely goes for having 2 in the army. I wouldn't be without mine in the current game. We all have games where the dice don't roll for us. I played 3 games yesterday where my favourite unit the Cold One Knights couldn't hit a barn door. Doesn't mean I will drop them though, or reconfigure them. Stick with it Chris. I've played over 100 games with the new DEs now and RBTs are very much a no brainer for my lists.

5 Harpies (55)
5 Harpies (55)
5 Shades (80)

6 Shades - Great Weapons. (108)
Cyuss (Assassin) - Additional Hand Weapon, Rending Stars, Manbane, Cloak of Twilight. (171)

This is where you get the points for the BSB. IMO a BSB is far more use than the Assassin. Drop him, along with the great weapons on the Shades, which are a complete waste of time without a COB in the list. Put the 177pt BSB in WITH the Sword of Might, and add a musician or a Guardmaster to the rxbs. A much better points spend.

s7 stars is nice but he ends up far too close to the action at times, and invariably he is pooh in combat without the Rune of Khaine... The BSb with his 18" charge potential and the pok protection can affect the game in a much more flexible manner. He's a proven concept time and time again.


6 Cold One Knights - Standard Bearer & Champion, Standard of Hag Graef. (229) I've dropped the ring of late myself too. Haven't missed it yet as it's quite funny seeing all opponents just assume it's in the list.

War Hydra (175)

Total; 1,999 points
Power Dice; 9 + Cloak of Twilight
Dispel Dice; 5 + 3 Scrolls

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Game 7 - vs Wood Elves

Like my previous game against Wood Elves, I was facing Dom. This time however he was using a better list, as provided by DA. I was shocked at how many models there are in this list - A lot for an Elf army (the exact number of models in each unit may be wrong);

Level 4 w/ 2 Scrolls, BSB w/ HoD, 3x10 Glade Guard, 3x8 Dryads, 5 Wild Riders, 2x7 Wardancers, 5 Waywatchers, Treeman.

Mate it is an awesome army. I see it in action nearly every week and it always provides results. It's only serious worry is against Daemons, but then it just hides...

Think thats it.
Im just gonna do a fairly brief roundup of this game, I can go into detail about specific things if asked.
My first turn started off fairly decently with shooting and magic hurting a couple of the Glade Guard units, causing one to panic. In his first turn the GG rallied.

Did he not hide his GG behind the Dryad units? If not, tell him to do so in future. The standard deployment with that army is Wild Riders on the flank, GG behind the Dryads, everything else in the middle or in the nearest wood basically!

Or did you have a hill?


The Waywatchers got a sneaky charge on some Harpies, though I elected to hold. The Wild Riders stood off against the Knights (he knew what banner I was packing!), as did a unit of Dryads - this pretty much went on for the whole game with these three units.

This is one of those situations where the BSB comes in handy. If he is in the Knights then you have more options than he does. I always try to kill or reduce as much as possible the number in the WR unit to even things up. The BSB is then free to charge at will. Quite often, when Martin has Dryads in front of his archers still, I will charge the BSB at them and punch through into the GG behind.

The longer you entertain a stand off the more certain he is to get the upper hand on the game and position himself so he can take you apart from afar. The strength in the WE list lies in the Treeman and the GG. If they are allowed to do their thing you are in trouble. Believe me I know as I have faced this army many times and the best result I get is a draw.


His magic phase drew 2 scrolls! I wasnt happy about that! I had moved my Level 4 into a wood (A Pegasus can choose to use ground movement and go into a wood right?) which

was a bit stupid,

but I figured I could contain his magic this game. Shooting saw the Hydras regen make a few saves, and a couple of RXBmen died. In combat the Waywatchers broke the Harpies but didnt chase. In my turn a positioned the Hydra to force a terror test on the level 4 who was now alone in the middle of a wood, I placed Harpies along what would be his flee path, so that Id destroy him if he did flee. the Assassin popped out aswell. Oh, and some Dark Riders charged the Waywatchers. Magic was rubbish, the level 2 took a wound and killed two rxbmen she was stood next to! Shooting wasnt much better, shot the rallied GG unit to death, and watched both Bolt Throwers miss the Treeman!!

You were diced mate. He rolled well in passing the terror test to make up for his poor positioning of the level 4 - why wasn't he with Wardancers??? - and you rolled poop.

The Assassin did manage to knock 2 wounds off the big tree with his stars though. In combat the Dark Riders spooned horribly and died to the Waywatchers. So far they had killed 5 Harpies and 5 Dark Riders, losing only one of their number in return! His turn two was when it all started to go wrong. His level 4 passed the terror test, as did some Glade Guard. The Treeman charged the Shades (no GW in this unit) and Assassin, I decided to S&S, thinking that I might knock a couple more wounds off, and if I got lucky the Assassin could then finish him before he struck me. However, I failed Terror and ran away. his magic and shooting killed a RBT crewman, most of the other unit of Dark Riders, the remaining Harpies, a Knight, and a wound off the Hydra.

What lore did he take - Life?

I dont actually think anything happened in my turn 3! The Shades and Assassin rallied & the Hydra flamed some Glade Guard. Yup, thats it, the RBTs failed to even hit the Treeman; both rolling ones! In his turn some Wardancers charged the Hydra in the side - a charge I had overlooked, though it went ok as the Hydra got knocked down to 1 wound before eating 5 Wardancers and running the rest down. This was pretty much the end of any action in this game - oh except the HoD firing at the one wound Hydra, scoring 14 hits, but failing to kill the beast!!

Awesome :twisted: so you had some luck at least.

He did finally die to the other Wardancers. I shot everything I could into the Treeman who just refused to die, he just hid everything else assuming he'd won. I did finally kill the Treeman in the last turn, but only for about 10 seconds as Diesel reminded us he successfully got the Regen spell off on him last turn, so Dom pickedup his dice and rolled some saves.

Oh he took Athel Loren magic then. I know this feeling well. Last time I played against it I had the Treeman down to one wound and then he cast Gift of Life to get all the wounds back and kill my BG unit in the ensuing rounds :cry:

Nice. In his last turn he got some spell off on my level 4 doing D6 S5 or 6 hits on her, did a few, killing the Peg and taking a wound off her. Game over.


Victory Points; 707/981
Draw

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well I think I was really lucky to get a draw out of that (btw, do you get half points on an RBT from killing one crewman.

No half points.

If you do, add 50pts to his total and he gets a Minor). I never felt in control of the game; he handled my magic well,

That is exactly what that WE army is designed to do.

my RBTs were very poor (again), he removed my mobile threats early on, totally nulified the Knights and generally annoyed me by not letting me at anything! Had he not assumed the win and actually carried on properly, he would of won for sure - some irony in that perhaps. I, on the other hand was determined not to get my first loss so tried to get a draw back. Its a very tough list he has now, and Im hoping to sticks with it. A very frustrating, but good game.

You did well to keep that at a draw. I suspect that if he runs with this army for a few games, and you get into this position again he will get the win. You were fortunate he wasn't experienced with this build.


Ok so Im getting used to this list now, I like it a lot. The only thing Im unsure on are the Bolt Throwers. Im thinking of dropping one and some other bits and trying to squeeze in a PoK BSB in. I know swapping the Assassin for him would make more sense, but I like the assassin. Ive also been thinking about a Dragon over a Peg for the level 4...but that would require alot of tweaking. Im just worried by Terradons!! Um yeah...give me some thoughts.

I've answered this above. All that remains to say is that now I have played several games against new Lizzies I don't see Terradons as the big threat I originally thought they would be. They die so easy to rxb fire...


Have fun,
Chris
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Post by Xizor »

Hey,

Firstly, George, thanks for your input above. I really didnt want to lose the second unit of Harpies, so nice one on finding a way round that. However after reading and thinking about DA's reply I've had a change of heart...

Gary; cheers for the time taken to post your reply. I hadnt heard from you in my topics for a while, so welcome back!! Ok, I definately hear what your saying about the RBT's - Im basically sulking because they have had a few poor games, thats literally what it comes down to! I should probably know better, right?

I do worry about my general, she hasnt died thus far but I know against certain armies she could be in big trouble. I would rather learn to adapt to these situations rather than dropping her for something else, and that would change my army far too much, and she has proved very potent in the 7 games played.

So the Bolt Throwers are staying in. Its worth noting that my deployment of them was utter crap last game, as advancing my units cut off several lines of sight. I do like the Assassin, but get what you mean about him being too close to things, he just cant hold up in combat and I never want him to get stuck in anyway. Im willing to drop him for the time being and give the BSB a run out. Im still gonna paint up atleast one Assassin model, just to sit by the table and perhaps worry opponents from time to time! I think I may stick with the Great Weapons for the time being, not sure - gonna draft a list in a min and see what needs to be dropped. To be honest, in 7 games now, they have seen combat once. They are just alot better and shooting than fighting. Its just a shame as Shades with GW was defo one of the things that excited me most about the new book. I guess I have to be practical though. I also don't want my list to become a generic list or anything (not that I know what that contains - I do know that the PoK BSB is popular though). I think the BSB definately needs a magic weapon, so he will have the Sword of Might, which IMO is the best choice for him.

Agreed on the Ring, Dom assumed my Knights had it, and only realised they didnt when I cast with IF near to them!

Moving on to Dom; he is a pretty good player, and once he gets a bit more experiance with this list will probably be my biggest challenge I'll get (out of Tournaments). He didnt put his Dryads infront of the Glade Guard - I shall pass this on. I didnt have a hill, so this woulda made a difference. How does it effect their shooting potential? I agree the level 4 shoulda been in the Wardancers, I think I said that to him afterwards. Should he be picking Life over Athel Loren do you think? as much as I may not like it, I really do want him getting the most out of this list, as its only gonna benefit me in the long run really.

Ok, thanks again, lets take a look at my new, improved(?), list;

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-The Heartless-
2,000 point Dark Elf Army


Karst Ether'Rage (Supreme Sorceress) - Level 4, Dark Pegasus, Focus Familiar, 2 Dispel Scrolls. (385)
Menardi Qel Droma (Sorceress) - Level 2, Dark Steed, Darkstar Cloak, Dispel Scroll. (197)

Agatio the Heartless (Master) - Battle Standard Bearer, Dark Steed, Pendant of Khaeleth, Sword of Might, Heavy Armour, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak. (177)

5 Dark Riders - Repeater Crossbows, Musician. (117)
5 Dark Riders - Repeater Crossbows, Musician. (117)

10 Repeater Crossbowmen - Guardmaster, Shields. (115)
2 Reaper Bolt Throwers (200)

5 Harpies (55)
5 Harpies (55)
5 Shades (80)
6 Shades (96)

6 Cold One Knights - Standard Bearer & Champion, Standard of Hag Graef. (229)
War Hydra (175)

Total; 1,998 points
Power Dice; 9
Dispel Dice; 5 + 3 Scrolls

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So hows that? I like it. Not really any different, whilst managing to get the BSB in, any other way would have resulted in me losing too much I think, which is something my mate Chad commented on when I text him about the previous proposed changes. I think I am going to miss the Assassin, and a 2,150 point version of the list would see him return straight away (Dropping the 6th Shade and some odd bits here and there to make it up to 171pts spare).

Lets see what you think then.

Only annoying thing now is that I have some Manflayers that I cant really use as "normal" Shades, so Ill need to buy 6 regular ones... :cry:

Have fun,
Chris
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Post by Dark Alliance »

With this kind of list you have a choice to make. You either take the Assassin or you take the BSb. You can't get both into 2000pts and make an effective list at the same time.

At 2k, the Assassin can work, but if you are going magic heavy you need to back it up with additional shooting and then you forgoe the combat units such as the knights. Down side of that is you then end up with a one dimensional list as you are magic/shooty avoidance. Exactly the kind of list which either gets rejected by tournament organisors, or it gets heavily comped. Much as the two Bens have found out recently.

I like your lists and your approach as you are trying to build redundancy into the list, producing a hard and competitive entity whilst ensuring you will be able to actually use what you are practising with on the current tournament scene.

When you look at 2150/2250 tourneys, that's when your Assassin comes back, along with unit buffs/luxuries such as gw for the Shades, an extra rxb unit or another hero etc.

About the WEs. The idea behind that deployment I suggested is that it ensures the GG stay alive if the opponent gets first turn. When Martin first starting using that list against me he quickly discovered that he needed to counter my tactic of trying to destroy his archers and Wild Riders in the first couple of turns. Dryads were the answer. At the moment Martin is my nemesis. i cannot beat this list in his hands. Anyone else yes. Just not him...!
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Post by Xizor »

Dark Alliance wrote:With this kind of list you have a choice to make. You either take the Assassin or you take the BSb. You can't get both into 2000pts and make an effective list at the same time.

Understood.

At 2k, the Assassin can work, but if you are going magic heavy you need to back it up with additional shooting and then you forgoe the combat units such as the knights. Down side of that is you then end up with a one dimensional list as you are magic/shooty avoidance. Exactly the kind of list which either gets rejected by tournament organisors, or it gets heavily comped. Much as the two Bens have found out recently.

I dont really want to be playing that style of list anyhow. I like having some combat in there, and certainly dont want to be running this with avoidance as my primary concern.

I like your lists and your approach as you are trying to build redundancy into the list, producing a hard and competitive entity whilst ensuring you will be able to actually use what you are practising with on the current tournament scene.

This is exactly what Im trying to do. I dont want to have to use a different list in every event I play. I understand that sometimes I may have to, or at worst add to it (for 2150/2250 etc). As you know from my days with The Black Sun, I like to take a list, play with it loads and tweak it till Im totally happy with it, then play it a load more! I definately think that this list has some potential at a competitive level, but I like to know my list inside out.

When you look at 2150/2250 tourneys, that's when your Assassin comes back, along with unit buffs/luxuries such as gw for the Shades, an extra rxb unit or another hero etc.

Yeah, this is what I was trying to talk about in my previous post. I think Im happy to have the Assassin on the subs bench as it were, it'll be nice to bring him out now and again.

About the WEs. The idea behind that deployment I suggested is that it ensures the GG stay alive if the opponent gets first turn. When Martin first starting using that list against me he quickly discovered that he needed to counter my tactic of trying to destroy his archers and Wild Riders in the first couple of turns. Dryads were the answer. At the moment Martin is my nemesis. i cannot beat this list in his hands. Anyone else yes. Just not him...!

Makes sense, I had never really thought of the Dryads fulfilling that role in the early game.. Im probably just going to point Dom in this direction so he can read through the thread and get some tips. Good luck on beating Martin!!

Its going to be a week tuesday till I get to play again, but I will be running out the above list and seeing how I get on with the BSB. Im also looking forward to converting and painting this model - definately a lot more exciting than an Assassin.

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Geoguswrek
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Post by Geoguswrek »

another nice trick with Dryads and GG is that when moving the dryads forward, you move the flanks of the unit in just enough so that the GG have line of sight to whatever they want to shoot (combined with moving the gg over 2.5 inches, this will give you a surprising amount of LoS. This means that the GG can see what you want, and that the dryads still screen you from a lot of the enemy's shooting.
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Post by Thanatoz »

Hey Xizor, I have played a game with this list, which looks a lot like yours (ok, your thread might have influenced my selection a bit):

Supreme Sorc lvl 4, DP, FF, DS*2
Sorc lvl 2, ToF, LT
BSB DS PoK SoM Full Mundane
Assassin RS, MB, CT

Hydra
2 RBT

5 Harpies
5 DR RxB Muso
5 DR RxB Muso
10 RxB Warriors Sh Muso Guardmaster

6 Shades GW
5 COK Muso Banner Of Hag Graef

Went nice, lost the level 4 because of a very stupid mistake (she actually failed a terror test because I forgot the unit she marchblocked caused terror and put her too close, fleeing of the table).

Like the list, avoidance heavy, but I'm not too keen on the CoK. I'm going to run them naked with muso, giving me enough points to include an additional 5 harpies (making the list look even more like yours).

I scored a minor loss because of that stupid mistake described above (I could have scored minor win if it weren't for that mistake).

@DA: Would this list be heavily comped? I don't play any tournaments yet, so I wouldn't know.
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Post by Dark Alliance »

No, it looks fine to me from a comp viewpoint.
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Post by Xizor »

Hey,

Thanatoz, gald you are enjoying this thread and that you have perhaps found some inspiration in it! Your list looks decent, and I look foward to hearing how you do in the future with it. I think you are heavily stacked in the Character department with the BSB and the Assassin; maybe you could give my exact list a run out at some point and see how you do with it.

For the rest of you, keep posted as I have an epic game to tell you about over the next day or so. I got off work early today so managed to make it up to Poole and got a rematch vs Doms Wood Elves. He had been studying this thread and had taken on DA and geoguswrek's advice. It was a good one...
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Post by Xizor »

Hey,

As mentioned in my previous post, I got a rematch vs Dom's Wood Elves on Tuesday. This without a doubt will go down as one of my most memorable games ever. This was the first time Ive used the new version of my list, featuring the BSB over an Assassin. As usual lets take a look at the list first;

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-The Heartless-
2,000 point Dark Elf Army


Karst Ether'Rage (Supreme Sorceress) - Level 4, Dark Pegasus, Focus Familiar, 2 Dispel Scrolls. (385)
Menardi Qel Droma (Sorceress) - Level 2, Dark Steed, Darkstar Cloak, Dispel Scroll. (197)

Agatio the Heartless (Master) - Battle Standard Bearer, Dark Steed, Pendant of Khaeleth, Sword of Might, Heavy Armour, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak. (177)

5 Dark Riders - Repeater Crossbows, Musician. (117)
5 Dark Riders - Repeater Crossbows, Musician. (117)

10 Repeater Crossbowmen - Guardmaster, Shields. (115)
2 Reaper Bolt Throwers (200)

5 Harpies (55)
5 Harpies (55)
5 Shades (80)
6 Shades (96)

6 Cold One Knights - Standard Bearer & Champion, Standard of Hag Graef. (229)
War Hydra (175)

Total; 1,998 points
Power Dice; 9
Dispel Dice; 5 + 3 Scrolls

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Game 8 - vs Wood Elves

Just in case you didnt read last time, here is Dom's list;

Level 4 w/ 2 Scrolls, BSB w/ HoD, 3x10 Glade Guard, 3x8 Dryads, 5 Wild Riders, 2x7 Wardancers, 5 Waywatchers, Treeman.

It is a very tough list, which I have come to respect and hate! I still can't believe how many toys are in there!! Dom had been reading over this thread (Get an account an post!!) and had certainly taken on the advice given.
He choose Life Lore over Athel Loren for the first time, and used the Dryads to screen his Glade Guard. However, I had a hill, which I placed my RXBmen and one RBT on. He did get the first turn. Manouvering his Dryads/GG as suggested above he managed to allow himself some good LoS (though obv some could see to my guys on the hill without losing their Dryad screen). His Magic phase was a bit naughty as first spell he Master of Stoned my RBT on the hill, killing both crew :(. I think he knocked a wound off the Hydra with a Master of Wood aswell. Shooting killed 4 RXBmen, a CoK and 3 Shades (who had to deploy in my zone). A Harpy or two may have fallen aswell. Not too shabby.
In my turn the RXBmen moved down off the hill, got screened by some Harpies and were joined by the BSB. Most other things moved forward. The level 4 took up a spot behind a wood; the Focus Familiar allowing her some really good LoS in this game (My fav item in the new book!). Magic started off poorly with the Level 2 losing a wound to a miscast whilst trying to Soulsteal the Waywatchers, I followed up the miscast with an IF Black Horror from the level 4 - I contacted 7 Glade Guard and 5 Dryads (or something similar) - and killed about 2 GG and 1 Dryad (if that actually!). Shooting took out some GG with a multishot from the RBT then managed a long ranged LoS accross the board.
His turn two resulted in not a massive ammount, just some good build up play - The Wild Riders staring down at some Dark Riders and the Level 2. Shooting notably took the Hydra down to a single wound, I think I lost about 3-4 more RXBmen and some more Harpies aswell.
In my Turn the BSB charged out of the RXBmen and into some Dryads. The Harpies and CoKs attempted to charge some Waywatchers who sat on the edge of a wood. I was unsure if the Knights would get in, and so was he, as instead of electing to S&S, he fled (he may have failed the fear test actually - cant remember the exact situation, lets not dwell on it; they fled!). The Harpies ended up in the side of the Wild Riders and the Knights had their flank facing some Glade Guard and to their front, in the woods were some Dryads. Magic and shooting culminated in a few dead GG from a couple of units, a few Dryads dead and a wound off the Treeman from the Bolt Thrower. In combat the Harpies lost and ran away. The BSB comfortably beat the Dryads but they managed to hold!
His Turn 3. The turn the game ended. The Wild Riders charged my Dark Riders and Level 2, who I had posistioned a little poorly as a flee reaction would almost certainly see them off the table, so I S&S, killing one. All his other units wrapped around my army, closing for the inevitable kill. Magic; he goes for a 3 dice Master of Wood, looking to rid the Hydra of his last wound. The dice come up three ones - He had already used Ranu's Heartstone in Turn 1 to prevent a miscast, so a roll on the miscast table it was...double 1!! Dead Level 4 - ouch! In shooting the BSB doesnt put anything to chance and HoD's the Hydra (though last game he did the same, with the Hydra on one wound, got 14 hits and failed to kill it!). This time the one wound Hydra was facing 12 shots; took 3 wounds, passed one armour save, and....only 1 regen. Boo! Dead Hydra, oh well. In combat the BSB finished off the Dryads, and the Wild Riders utterly failed to score even a wound!! The Dark Riders struck back, killing 2 and running the unit down.
From here the game was effectively lost for Dom - my magic ran utterly rampant, decimating units at a time. Even my odd two Shades and two RXBmen were scoring kills to finish off GG units. The lone RBT killed the Treeman over a couple of turns (though not before he strangle rooted some Dark Riders and Terrored my Level 2 off the board...far too late to help though).

Victory Points: 2044/878
Result: Solid Victory for The Heartless

Only 34 points off a Massacre. I definately couldve conserved some points (last two Shades etc) and got the Massacre but oh well. I was definately ridiculously lucky this game. Has his Level 4 survived and his Wild Riders killed the DR and Level 2 (like they prob shouldve) it wouldve been a massivley different game (the Wild Riders wouldve then been able to take out the RBT next turn). Once again I didnt feel that comfortable against this army, and most things seemed to happen on his terms. I am going to give him another rematch, which is only fair I think. Im pretty sure my unbeaten run ends at this army!! But hey, who knows, Im getting more and more confident with this army, and love how it plays. Im also really happy with the BSB, he was solid - whilst only taking down one unit of Dryads and finishing off a couple of Glade Guard he still impressed, and also shrugged off a fair few bow shots. Liking him a lot - also gonna be a lot more fun to model and paint than an Assassin (also helps for fluff...when I do it!).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Games Played: 8 / Won: 6 / Drawn: 2 / Lost: 0
Daemons of Chaos: 4 / Won: 3 / Drawn: 1 / Lost: 0
Wood Elves: 3 / Won: 2 / Drawn: 1 / Lost: 0
Warriors of Chaos: 1 / Won: 1 / Drawn: 0 / Lost: 0
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I realise its very important that I need to start playing different people, with different armies, and that will happen soon. Nice to just get back into it playing with mates at the moment.

So yeah..let me know any thoughts you might have.

Have fun,
Chris
X
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Post by Zenith »

Hi mate, I do use manflayers as shades, because

One: Their far more nicer models
Two: theive got GW's, their armour represents light armour.


Ive painted the armour edges with purple foundation, highlighted a bit with a small amount of skull white. They truly look like drow.
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Post by Zenith »

How about a chariot or two against the WE, because of the free rotation its quite manouvrble. Their T5 helps alot two i guess.

greetz Zenith
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Post by Geoguswrek »

Seems to me you were quite lucky to get the win out of that game mate. Without the miscast he seemed to be surviving your magic and hurting you just enough with his to give you trouble but that is what WE do.
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Post by Xizor »

Zenith wrote:Hi mate, I do use manflayers as shades, because

One: Their far more nicer models
Two: theive got GW's, their armour represents light armour.

Hey mate, cheers for posting. A few points on the above;
1) Other than the command, Id say regular Shades are nicer models.
2) The Shades in my army don't have Great Weapons.
3) The Shades in my army don't have Light Armour.
:P
If I use Great Weapon equipped Shades I shall use my Manflayer models though.


Ive painted the armour edges with purple foundation, highlighted a bit with a small amount of skull white. They truly look like drow.

Not overly keen on the Drow look myself - I am very interested to see the paint job though

How about a chariot or two against the WE, because of the free rotation its quite manouvrble. Their T5 helps alot two i guess.

I have always been a fan of Cold One Chariots, but havent used them in the new book. I think maybe at 2250 points I might run one. Not sure. I have parts to make a couple, which I shall do at some stage. Don't think they add anything im lacking to the list right now though

greetz Zenith


geoguswrek wrote:Seems to me you were quite lucky to get the win out of that game mate. Without the miscast he seemed to be surviving your magic and hurting you just enough with his to give you trouble but that is what WE do.

Yeah for sure mate. I did say above that I don't think I had a chance of winning the game before the miscast. His positioning that turn was such that I wouldve struggled to turn it around. There are some games where you get a bit of luck, and others, like this one that are turned upside down due to one poor set of rolls. Now i have seen how the list will operate in future ill have to rethink the way I go about facing it.


Incidently, I think it may have been a night for odd rolls. In one game my friend Diesel was running his Daemons out vs a WoC army. He had first turn and his Nurgle Herald miscast with the first spell of the game. His miscast roll was adjusted by the WoC players puppet, resulting in him being allowed to cast a spell for free. So a friendly little spell by the name of Infernal Gateway came hurtling at Diesel's Bloodthirster, killing it (though he didnt do it 11 or 12 style!)! Thats probably the least effort Ive ever heard of going into killing a Bloodthirster!! Good stuff.

Still ended a draw though :roll:
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Post by Dark Alliance »

Well done Chris. Enjoy the win against that list while you can, 'coz once he gets the hang of how to play it... (trust me I know!)
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Post by Xizor »

Dark Alliance wrote:Well done Chris. Enjoy the win against that list while you can, 'coz once he gets the hang of how to play it... (trust me I know!)


Haha yeah mate, thats exactly how I'm looking at it aswell!! :)
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Post by Xizor »

Due to something I forgot in the last game, and am sure I would continue to do, I have made a tiny change. its one I knew was probably better to start off with but couldnt be bothered to change the model. Sorted now...can you see it?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-The Heartless-
2,000 point Dark Elf Army


Karst Ether'Rage (Supreme Sorceress) - Level 4, Dark Pegasus, Focus Familiar, 2 Dispel Scrolls. (385)
Menardi Qel Droma (Sorceress) - Level 2, Dark Steed, Darkstar Cloak, Dispel Scroll. (197)

Agatio the Heartless (Master) - Battle Standard Bearer, Dark Steed, Pendant of Khaeleth, Sword of Might, Heavy Armour, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak. (177)

5 Dark Riders - Repeater Crossbows, Musician. (117)
5 Dark Riders - Repeater Crossbows, Musician. (117)

10 Repeater Crossbowmen - Musician, Shields. (115)
2 Reaper Bolt Throwers (200)

5 Harpies (55)
5 Harpies (55)
5 Shades (80)
6 Shades (96)

6 Cold One Knights - Standard Bearer & Champion, Standard of Hag Graef. (229)
War Hydra (175)

Total; 1,998 points
Power Dice; 9
Dispel Dice; 5 + 3 Scrolls

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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