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2250 tournament for later this year 
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Malekith's Best Friend
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296 General on DP - RXB & Add HW - Caledor's bane, AoD & PoK
192 Sorc with, DS, Familiar & DS scroll
165 Sorc with SoG
180 Sorc with ToF & Life Taker

155 Assassin with add HW, MB & RS
10 RXB with shields
10 RXB with shields
10 RXB with shields
10 RXB with shields
5 Harpies
5 Harpies
5 Harpies

115 8 witches with hag & manbane
CoC
5 CoK
5 CoK

Hydra


All up it comes to 2247

I'm still trying to get a workable list out of my esxisting figures. Spears and RXB are limited because of their S-3 since most of my opponents are Ork, Woodelves and Chaos.

List is now extreme MSU with no banners, champs or even musos. Everything has been sacrificed to get the maximum number of units that do well in combat, while maintaining my so far effective shooting and magic.

The massive shooting of the RXB is a dominant factor, but the ability of my army to win in melee has been entirely down to characters, as my RXB simply don't have the means to inflict the casualties needed in melee, hense the above changes.

My magic has been good, the combination stopping opposing magic and battering the enemy in all of my games so far, so it is unchanged.

What do you think?

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Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:20 am
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Why the random unit of witch elves? For their points cost, I would throw in a unit of Dark riders and I think they would fit your army a bit better. Otherwise, your CoK will leave your witches behind and your witches will leave your rxb behind, so they seem like more of a liability as they are.

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Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:38 am
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druchii77 wrote:
Why the random unit of witch elves? For their points cost, I would throw in a unit of Dark riders and I think they would fit your army a bit better. Otherwise, your CoK will leave your witches behind and your witches will leave your rxb behind, so they seem like more of a liability as they are.


So far they have been left as minders for the RXB. They don't need to worry about frenzy with the enemy out of sight, and can be set up to flank charge things the RXB flee from. To date they have been rather successful. The increase in size and the hag with manbane is so they can better deal with huge mobs of Orks tramping though my front lines. :)

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Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:54 am
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Rabidnid wrote:
296 General on DP - RXB & Add HW - Caledor's bane, AoD & PoK
192 Sorc with, DS, Familiar & DS scroll
165 Sorc with SoG
180 Sorc with ToF & Life Taker

155 Assassin with add HW, MB & RS
10 RXB with shields
10 RXB with shields
10 RXB with shields
10 RXB with shields
5 Harpies
5 Harpies
5 Harpies

115 8 witches with hag & manbane
CoC
5 CoK
5 CoK

Hydra


All up it comes to 2247

I'm still trying to get a workable list out of my esxisting figures. Spears and RXB are limited because of their S-3 since most of my opponents are Ork, Woodelves and Chaos.

List is now extreme MSU with no banners, champs or even musos. Everything has been sacrificed to get the maximum number of units that do well in combat, while maintaining my so far effective shooting and magic.

The massive shooting of the RXB is a dominant factor, but the ability of my army to win in melee has been entirely down to characters, as my RXB simply don't have the means to inflict the casualties needed in melee, hense the above changes.

My magic has been good, the combination stopping opposing magic and battering the enemy in all of my games so far, so it is unchanged.

What do you think?


First - Assassin becomes 151 not 155. Would he go in one of the RXB sqds? Would he be revealed right away to start chucking stars? I like him, but I just wonder if a squad of shades might serve better than a COC not only for a delivery system but to harass and contain.

Though the COC works in theory with the COK's, you are bound to fail a couple stupidity tests which could alter in game strat.

The 3 sorcs are good in theory until you deploy them. Are they going to be near your gunline? Are they going to be solo? The Focus Familiar is nice (i think you made a note in one of my posts that you like the idea of putting the focus in forests to see a mage) but I don't see the point.. after that really.

Throwing this out there, but your list would benefit greatly from a Cauldron of Blood. + 1 Attack for the COK's on the charge or Killing blow for your flank charging witches might really be the trick. I would try and squeeze that in. Perhaps the following should be dropped: Sorc with Seal of Ghrond and a sqd of Harpies (which i hesitate because you NEED them in this list) and add a 200 pt Cauldron.

I love the Hydra and two sqds of COK's. I can see it working wonders as well as the possible needed punch of the Dreadlord.

your battery of shooting would benefit from a Repeater Bolt Thrower as well...drop the COC for one?


Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:06 am
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I've only just noticed the new CoC stat line, so base S-4 on the crew and Ld 9 makes them very suitable introductions.

With all the magic I run, I find butchering waywatches fairly effortless so doubt the survivablity of shades and consequently the assassin.

I do agree that the caldron is a good idea and losing a Sorc and a unit of harpies is a good option to include it. Alternately I might lose a unit of RXB, but depends again on my models. I have all the RXB but still need a couple harpies to reach 15. At the moment a conversion based on a lizardman engine of the gods is looking the most likely.

The familiar is incredibly useful

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Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:25 am
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The cauldron would do well, but I'd not drop a sorc to get it. It'll cost you valuable power dice, and will make your own magic less devastating.


Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:51 am
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Thanatoz wrote:
The cauldron would do well, but I'd not drop a sorc to get it. It'll cost you valuable power dice, and will make your own magic less devastating.



Revised list added the CoB. The witches had to go, but the CoKs are now 6 rather than 5

358 lvl 4 Supreme Sorc with, DS, Familiar, SoG & DS
165 Sorc with ToF & LT
198 General on DP - RXB & Add HW - Caledor's bane & BA
200 CoB

151 Assassin with add HW, MB & RS
10 RXB with shields
10 RXB with shields
10 RXB with shields
10 RXB with shields
5 Harpies
6 Harpies

6 CoK
6 CoK
CoC

Hydra


Better or worse with the cauldron?

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Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:53 am
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Nice revision rabidnid!

Your 2nd sorceress with ToF and LT(assume its lifetaker) comes to 180 or 145(if you are level 1)

WOW, I didn't even notice the changes to the COC until now. Though they aren't 2-for-1 anymore, the increase in stats and armor save now make it a capable candidate. (its making me rethink my list).



I really like this list with the mild exception to your 40 repeater crossbowmen. Do you think it might get too expansive on your deployment zone? Obviously looking for hills to deploy, but if not... are you going to deploy them 10 wide? 7wide with 3 in the back? split forces? maybe it depends on the opponent. I would be very interested in knowing. A squad of Dark Riders would be extremely helpful. (Hard to find the points)

My level 4 runs the Black Staff and Pendant, but for 10 points less you add quite a bit more of a defensive presence. I wonder if I should lose the staff and add a power stone or two and the Focus Familiar instead.

6 Cold One Knights vs. 1 War Hydra. I don't know what is better really. Dropping the War Hydra and Picking up another squad of 6 cold one knights to really theme this list, dropping a cold one knight squad and a harpy and picking up another War Hydra? Keeping it as is? I would be interested in weighing the pro's and con's about this.


Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:00 pm
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Ashwinz wrote:
Nice revision rabidnid!

Your 2nd sorceress with ToF and LT(assume its lifetaker) comes to 180 or 145(if you are level 1)

WOW, I didn't even notice the changes to the COC until now. Though they aren't 2-for-1 anymore, the increase in stats and armor save now make it a capable candidate. (its making me rethink my list).



I really like this list with the mild exception to your 40 repeater crossbowmen. Do you think it might get too expansive on your deployment zone? Obviously looking for hills to deploy, but if not... are you going to deploy them 10 wide? 7wide with 3 in the back? split forces? maybe it depends on the opponent. I would be very interested in knowing. A squad of Dark Riders would be extremely helpful. (Hard to find the points)

My level 4 runs the Black Staff and Pendant, but for 10 points less you add quite a bit more of a defensive presence. I wonder if I should lose the staff and add a power stone or two and the Focus Familiar instead.

6 Cold One Knights vs. 1 War Hydra. I don't know what is better really. Dropping the War Hydra and Picking up another squad of 6 cold one knights to really theme this list, dropping a cold one knight squad and a harpy and picking up another War Hydra? Keeping it as is? I would be interested in weighing the pro's and con's about this.


Yep, 180 it is for the second sorc.

I like to shut down enemy magic rather than just survive it, so the loads of DD suit me more than scrolls. A second more aggressive option would be to drop the DS for 2 power stones, but I would need to find 5 points somewhere.

The current list is based on exisiting figures. I love my hydra, and the CoKs almost always fail. Their luck has to change eventually, and they do draw loads of fire one way or another.

The 40 RXB are again because I have the models. I use them like slow DR, with 1 or 2 pelting towards any buildings or to set up to shoot into flanks, while 2 deploy 10 wide and shoot with full effect. Once the flanking units have deplyed, the 10 shotsmakes up for the turn or 2 they missed shooting.

I have used DR in the past, and they usually just get shot off the table. I play slightly more Chaos and Orks than I used to, but the habit is still there. Besides, RXB/CoKs are wonderful for dealing with light troops like fast cav, and anything they miss gets breathed on by the hydra or hit with a magic missile when it sticks its nose in the open. Same applies to skirmishers, the -1 to hit dosen't bother magic missiles or the hydra, and the RXB can choose not to mulitshot and still manage a few hits with, 6s to hit, odds.

I love the focus familiar, it extends the rang of spells to 30", lets her cast from behind units, lets her cast if she gets caught in combat, and can be dropped into a wood to kill characters or units hiding there.

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Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:03 pm
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Rabidnid wrote:
Thanatoz wrote:
The cauldron would do well, but I'd not drop a sorc to get it. It'll cost you valuable power dice, and will make your own magic less devastating.



Revised list added the CoB. The witches had to go, but the CoKs are now 6 rather than 5

358 lvl 4 Supreme Sorc with, DS, Familiar, SoG & DS
165 Sorc with ToF & LT
198 General on DP - RXB & Add HW - Caledor's bane & BA
200 CoB

151 Assassin with add HW, MB & RS
10 RXB with shields
10 RXB with shields
10 RXB with shields
10 RXB with shields
5 Harpies
6 Harpies

This is a LOT of core choices. I'm not convinced they are worth it. You have a spare special slot, so you could happily upgrade one unit of RXB's to shades.

6 CoK
6 CoK
CoC

Hydra


Better or worse with the cauldron?

I'm not sure what the cauldron is doing here. It doesn't have much use when your entire army is shooting oriented. You have 3 real combat threats and yes, CoK love the cauldron but its not that big a deal. I'd drop it to get another wizard which, imo is worth more.


Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:24 pm
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Post 
geoguswrek wrote:
Rabidnid wrote:
Thanatoz wrote:
The cauldron would do well, but I'd not drop a sorc to get it. It'll cost you valuable power dice, and will make your own magic less devastating.



Revised list added the CoB. The witches had to go, but the CoKs are now 6 rather than 5

358 lvl 4 Supreme Sorc with, DS, Familiar, SoG & DS
165 Sorc with ToF & LT
198 General on DP - RXB & Add HW - Caledor's bane & BA
200 CoB

151 Assassin with add HW, MB & RS
10 RXB with shields
10 RXB with shields
10 RXB with shields
10 RXB with shields
5 Harpies
6 Harpies

This is a LOT of core choices. I'm not convinced they are worth it. You have a spare special slot, so you could happily upgrade one unit of RXB's to shades.

6 CoK
6 CoK
CoC

Hydra


Better or worse with the cauldron?

I'm not sure what the cauldron is doing here. It doesn't have much use when your entire army is shooting oriented. You have 3 real combat threats and yes, CoK love the cauldron but its not that big a deal. I'd drop it to get another wizard which, imo is worth more.


Read the above posts. I am siding with you on the shades and their compatibility with the COB, but he is assuring us that his base provides enough of a hassle that shades would end up dying within the first two turns.

the COB works REALLY well in this list.


Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:56 pm
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This is a very interesting list. I can see how the Cauldron would work with it, since +1 attack on Cold One Knights is really nasty and a 5+ ward save on a Hydra can turn it into a real tank.

That being said, I'm not sure I see the single Assassin fitting well into the list since the only infantry units are missile units that normally like to hang back -- I think assassins are better if they have a "delivery system" in the form of a combat unit to bring them closer to the front line.

If you have the models, I would drop the assassin and a harpy unit in favor of 2 units of Dark Riders. I find that Dark Riders can work really well with a cauldron since the +1 attack can give them the ability to take on stuff they would normally bounce off of, and they can make use of the Cauldron's blessing in turn 1 or 2 when other units can't use or don't really need a blessing. Since harpies can't receive blessings, I don't think you should rely on them as your exclusive harassing troops in a cauldron army.

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Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:12 pm
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Dyvim Tvar wrote:
This is a very interesting list. I can see how the Cauldron would work with it, since +1 attack on Cold One Knights is really nasty and a 5+ ward save on a Hydra can turn it into a real tank.

That being said, I'm not sure I see the single Assassin fitting well into the list since the only infantry units are missile units that normally like to hang back -- I think assassins are better if they have a "delivery system" in the form of a combat unit to bring them closer to the front line.

If you have the models, I would drop the assassin and a harpy unit in favor of 2 units of Dark Riders. I find that Dark Riders can work really well with a cauldron since the +1 attack can give them the ability to take on stuff they would normally bounce off of, and they can make use of the Cauldron's blessing in turn 1 or 2 when other units can't use or don't really need a blessing. Since harpies can't receive blessings, I don't think you should rely on them as your exclusive harassing troops in a cauldron army.


Good point. I will have to see what I can arrange. My early experiences (6th ed book) with both shades and DR weren't that positive. I have been planning to add a unit of DR again as I'm converting some chaos marauders.

I will also be creating a unit of shades out of half a box of corsairs I have laying around, and see if they are any use to me. Basically I play wood elves a lot, and the shades are more a liability than an assest versus woodies.

Assasin has worked ok in several games, and the stand and shoot with the rending stars has been useful when things got to my RXB, especially big beasties and chariots. I do miss the witches in this list though so I might drop it for witches and a unit of DR without RXB.

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Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:42 pm
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In 6th edition I almost never used shades and dark riders were running without crossbows.

Armour Piercing on crossbows and BS 5 on shades really changed things a lot.

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Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:12 pm
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I think you're spending way way too many points on characters. First thing to do is drop the cauldron. You have no khainite units, nor do you have big blocks, so the obvious uses aren't there for the couldron.

I also think you need to increase the speed of the list drastically. First I would drop 2 CoK's. With couldron and the 2 knights dropped, you have 254 points. Swap one unit of Rxb's for a unit of shades, you have 264, drop one harpy and you have 275. If your list comes out to anything under 2250, you can add 3 full unit of dark riders (no rxb's). Which nets you a list that looks like:
Level 4
Level 2
Master on peg
3x5 dr's
3x10 rxb's
2x5 harpies
2x5 CoKs
CoC
Hydra
5 shades (I would put assassin in here, give him the bound steed item, +d3 attacks and whatever suits your fancy/fits in the list)

That's a definite winning list.


Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:52 pm
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Ronen Warrior wrote:
I think you're spending way way too many points on characters. First thing to do is drop the cauldron. You have no khainite units, nor do you have big blocks, so the obvious uses aren't there for the couldron.

I also think you need to increase the speed of the list drastically. First I would drop 2 CoK's. With couldron and the 2 knights dropped, you have 254 points. Swap one unit of Rxb's for a unit of shades, you have 264, drop one harpy and you have 275. If your list comes out to anything under 2250, you can add 3 full unit of dark riders (no rxb's). Which nets you a list that looks like:
Level 4
Level 2
Master on peg
3x5 dr's
3x10 rxb's
2x5 harpies
2x5 CoKs
CoC
Hydra
5 shades (I would put assassin in here, give him the bound steed item, +d3 attacks and whatever suits your fancy/fits in the list)

That's a definite winning list.


Funnily enough, my list would butcher it though. The DR would be shot off the table and the shades would have nowhere to go becuause I scatter the harpies in my rear area, so they would get either killed with magi and the familiar or breathed on by the hydra.

Ther assassin is going to get the witches back, but that is the only change I'm considering for the moment.

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Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:35 pm
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I give up :) there is now black guard.

358 lvl 4 Supreme Sorc with Familiar, SoG & DS
165 Sorc with ToF & LT
198 Master on DP - RXB & Add HW - AoD & Deathpiecer
200 General - CoB

10 RXB with shields
10 RXB with shields
10 RXB with shields
10 RXB with shields
5 Harpies
5 Harpies

5 CoK
5 CoK
7 witches
12 BG with Champ with CD, and std with ASF banner

Hydra


I am not sure about the cauldron, though I can see how it adds to the army.

I might drop the cauldron for mounted master general, and use th saved points to increase the size of the BG.

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Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:42 pm
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I'd lose the witches and up the number of BG.


Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:32 pm
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NIce list. I likw the idea of all the crossbows but 1RBT might be useful against large models.

I see the se for the witches but i find it hard to live with 1 RBT.

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Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:57 pm
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Marauder Mitch2 wrote:
NIce list. I likw the idea of all the crossbows but 1RBT might be useful against large models.

I see the se for the witches but i find it hard to live with 1 RBT.



As long as I get Doombolt on one of the girls I don't mind, that spell is surprisingly effective against large targets. Stanks are the only thing I can't deal with, and they are rare enough not be worth planning for.

I actually gave my RBT away as a present as they look so cool, so I will have to lose a few times because of the lack before I will get around to buying another one :)

Edit:

I have actually made an RBT from loft over bits from the Stegadon model, so I will try dropping a unit of RXB to include it. So I now have a CoB and a RBT. I will playtest the combos and see how I goe.

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Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:17 pm
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