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My first Black Dragon list 
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Dreadlord on Black Dragon - 524
- Deathpiercer, Armour of Eternal Servitude, shield, sea dragon cloak

Death Hag BSB on Cauldron of Blood - 250
- two hand weapons, Witchbrew

Sorceress level 1 - 130
- hand weapon, Seal of Ghrond

Assassin - 171
- 2 poisoned hand weapons, Cloak of Twilight, Touch of Death, Rune of Khaine

20 Black Ark Corsairs - 250
- 2 hand weapons, light armour, sea dragon cloaks, full command, Sea Serpent Standard

14 Repeater Crossbowmen - 154
- repeater crossbows, light armour, shields

14 Repeater Crossbowmen - 154
- repeater crossbows, light armour, shields

10 Executioners - 120
- great weapons, heavy armour

10 Witch Elves - 100
- two poisoned hand weapons

Cold One Chariot - 100
- scythed wheels, spears, repeater crossbows

Cold One Chariot - 100
- scythed wheels, spears, repeater crossbows

Reaper Bolt Thrower - 100
- light armour

Reaper Bolt Thrower - 100
- light armour
_____
2252



The basic game plan is to have the Khainites hold one of the flanks, probably the one opposite the enemies stronger flank. The Cauldron of Blood will be flanked by the Executioners and Witch Elves, in one of such units the Assassin will hide. His equipment is a pretty sensible choice, he can jump out and fly to a character and then unleash all his KB attacks. If the occasion never arises and he just stays in the unit, only 20pts are wasted. This flank will be backed up by the Reaper Bolt Throwers to give them some shooting cover and support. If a unit tries to get around the Khainites to charge the Reapers, the Assassin can fly out and stall them.

The opposite flank, facing the weakest enemy flank if possible, will be maintained by the Chariots and backed by the Crossbowmen and Sorceress caddy. The Chariots are to rocket forwards and smash into the weakest enemy point, with the Crossbowmen advancing and picking off any small weak units. The Sorceress is not there for offence, but she can stick cast out a Chillwind at any unit I do not want shooting back the following turn or finish off small units on her own.

This leaves the centre to the dragon lord and corsairs, whos tasks are pretty straightforward. The corsairs are to engage any infantry block in the center, perhaps the enemy general, which needs holding up. 20 strong and with 2 hand weapons each, they should be able to hold in there and dish out some damage too. The Dreadlord is to do his thing, smashing into enemy units and hopefully wiping out everything he can. S7 on the charge with Killing Blow, not to mention the Dragons attacks, he is bound to up his kill count in every game. With a 2+/1+ armour save and Regeneration, plus a 6 wound mount, he should live through most battles as well.


Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:27 am
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Kinslayer wrote:
Dreadlord on Black Dragon - 524
- Deathpiercer, Armour of Eternal Servitude, shield, sea dragon cloak

IMO the optimal combination for the dragon Lord is Armour of Darkness, pendant and Caledors Bane.

Death Hag BSB on Cauldron of Blood - 250
- two hand weapons, Witchbrew

Witchbrew is unneccessary. She is stubborn on 9 with a reroll. The apprentices are now classed as unit champs so can challenge, which keeps her alive while support arrives.

Sorceress level 1 - 130
- hand weapon, Seal of Ghrond

4 DD no scrolls?? :shock:

Assassin - 171
- 2 poisoned hand weapons, Cloak of Twilight, Touch of Death, Rune of Khaine

IMO he doesn't need KB, he is better with manbane or if this is specific to HEs give him double wounds in a challenge or reroll 1s or something. He can get KB from the COB along with whatever unit he is in. Also, in an army this light in the magic phase you will never get the cloak to work. 20pts wasted mate.

20 Black Ark Corsairs - 250
- 2 hand weapons, light armour, sea dragon cloaks, full command, Sea Serpent Standard

14 Repeater Crossbowmen - 154
- repeater crossbows, light armour, shields

14 Repeater Crossbowmen - 154
- repeater crossbows, light armour, shields

10 Executioners - 120
- great weapons, heavy armour

10 Witch Elves - 100
- two poisoned hand weapons

Cold One Chariot - 100
- scythed wheels, spears, repeater crossbows

Cold One Chariot - 100
- scythed wheels, spears, repeater crossbows

Reaper Bolt Thrower - 100
- light armour

Reaper Bolt Thrower - 100
- light armour
_____
2252



The basic game plan is to have the Khainites hold one of the flanks, probably the one opposite the enemies stronger flank. The Cauldron of Blood will be flanked by the Executioners and Witch Elves, in one of such units the Assassin will hide. His equipment is a pretty sensible choice, he can jump out and fly to a character and then unleash all his KB attacks. If the occasion never arises and he just stays in the unit, only 20pts are wasted. This flank will be backed up by the Reaper Bolt Throwers to give them some shooting cover and support. If a unit tries to get around the Khainites to charge the Reapers, the Assassin can fly out and stall them.

The opposite flank, facing the weakest enemy flank if possible, will be maintained by the Chariots and backed by the Crossbowmen and Sorceress caddy. The Chariots are to rocket forwards and smash into the weakest enemy point, with the Crossbowmen advancing and picking off any small weak units. The Sorceress is not there for offence, but she can stick cast out a Chillwind at any unit I do not want shooting back the following turn or finish off small units on her own.

This leaves the centre to the dragon lord and corsairs, whos tasks are pretty straightforward. The corsairs are to engage any infantry block in the center, perhaps the enemy general, which needs holding up. 20 strong and with 2 hand weapons each, they should be able to hold in there and dish out some damage too. The Dreadlord is to do his thing, smashing into enemy units and hopefully wiping out everything he can. S7 on the charge with Killing Blow, not to mention the Dragons attacks,

s7 from where??
he is bound to up his kill count in every game. With a 2+/1+ armour save and Regeneration, plus a 6 wound mount, he should live through most battles as well.


Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:09 pm
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Thanks for your advice DA. I meant S6 on the charge at the end there.


Is Caledors Bane really better than the Deathpiercer? S7 on the charge over S6 with KB?

It is specifically to be fighting Asrai not HE, but it may take other enemies on at GW.

I can swap out the Seal of Ghrond and Witchbrew on Death Hag for 2 Dispel Scrolls on the Sorceress?

Against the wood elves I have always found that Assassin build, or one with Black Lotus instead of the Cloak, to work better for me than the Manbane has. Perhaps it was the dice making it feel better for me, but I tend to run this Assassin build.



Thanks again, what do you think then of these changes? And would the rest of the list work, such as no dark riders?


Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:15 pm
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if you think you will be facing chariots or other dragons then caledors bane is better IMHO...i like to run a master on DP with mundane kit, Caledors bane and one NT and then another master on DP with ring of hotek and death piercer....it is a wicked combo who follow my dragon lord around who has 2 NT....i go magic defense and nomagic offense when running a black dragon

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Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:11 pm
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Thanks, I will mainly be facing infantry or cavalry units (wood elves..) hence why I feel KB the better move to have. I doubt the dragon will go up against the treeman apart from if it uses its breath weapon to burn the beast.

Dark Alliance: why the 1+ armour when you can have that save anyway through mundane plus Regeneration?

(I left the assassin with KB as I can then add other gifts with the cauldron and he will have both)


How does this look:


Dreadlord on Black Dragon - 549
- Deathpiercer, Armour of Eternal Servitude, Ring of Hotek, shield, sea dragon cloak

Death Hag BSB on Cauldron of Blood - 225
- two hand weapons

Sorceress level 1 - 150
- hand weapon, 2 dispel scrolls

Assassin - 151
- 2 poisoned hand weapons, Touch of Death, Rune of Khaine

20 Black Ark Corsairs - 250
- 2 hand weapons, light armour, sea dragon cloaks, full command, Sea Serpent Standard

14 Repeater Crossbowmen - 154
- repeater crossbows, light armour, shields

14 Repeater Crossbowmen - 154
- repeater crossbows, light armour, shields

10 Executioners - 120
- great weapons, heavy armour

10 Witch Elves - 100
- two poisoned hand weapons

Cold One Chariot - 100
- scythed wheels, spears, repeater crossbows

Cold One Chariot - 100
- scythed wheels, spears, repeater crossbows

Reaper Bolt Thrower - 100
- light armour

Reaper Bolt Thrower - 100
- light armour
_____
2252


Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:25 pm
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Why the 1+?

...because that is how the points work best imo with the equipment combo I prefer.


Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:40 pm
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you can't reach 1+ armour save on a dragon without armour of darkness or blood armour.

heavy armor 5+
Sea dragon cloak +1/+2
Shield +1

3+ in combat, 2+ against shooting

+1 if you're using enchanted shield and it's still not 1+ in all cases.

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Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:42 pm
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Dalamar wrote:
you can't reach 1+ armour save on a dragon without armour of darkness or blood armour.

heavy armor 5+
Sea dragon cloak +1/+2
Shield +1

3+ in combat, 2+ against shooting

+1 if you're using enchanted shield and it's still not 1+ in all cases.



What about +1 for being mounted?


Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:06 pm
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Monstrous Mounts don't give you that bonus, read the BRB please, most of your recent questions have plain answers right in there.

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Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:12 pm
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I did not ask this one in the rules thread because I knew it would have an answer in the BRB, just threw it out now as a friendly question in our conversation rather than go dig out the BRB. My other question/s (the only one I can think of is the one on shields) I have looked in the BRB and found nothing obvious. I do not need to read the BRB again and again to learn these rules, I need to play games to get the experience hammered right in.

Anyways back to the list.

Are there any opinions on the non character part of the list?


Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:25 pm
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Not really

it is only your Dragon Lord that anyone has a problem with, and you are not willing to change it

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Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:38 am
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I am not willing to swap the Deathpeircer for Caledors Bane when I have found the former to be of more use to me in games than an extra strength point, not to mention the fact this one is cheaper in cost. I am willing to change the rest of his build, such as his armour, and give him the pendant. I never said I was not willing to change it.


So the rest of the list is perfect then.. That's good. How about:

Dreadlord on Black Dragon - 515
- Deathpiercer, Armour of Darkness, Pendant of Khaeleth

Death Hag BSB on Cauldron of Blood - 225
- two hand weapons

Sorceress level 1 - 162
- hand weapon, dark steed, 2 dispel scrolls

Assassin - 171
- 2 poisoned hand weapons, Black Lotus, Touch of Death, Rune of Khaine

20 Black Ark Corsairs - 250
- 2 hand weapons, light armour, sea dragon cloaks, full command, Sea Serpent Standard

14 Repeater Crossbowmen - 154
- repeater crossbows, light armour, shields

14 Repeater Crossbowmen - 154
- repeater crossbows, light armour, shields

10 Executioners - 120
- great weapons, heavy armour

10 Witch Elves - 100
- two poisoned hand weapons

Cold One Chariot - 100
- scythed wheels, spears, repeater crossbows

Cold One Chariot - 100
- scythed wheels, spears, repeater crossbows

Reaper Bolt Thrower - 100
- light armour

Reaper Bolt Thrower - 100
- light armour
_____
2250


Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:20 am
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I agree with you regarding Caledors Bane

I got the impression from your last post that you not interested in talking about your chracters any more.

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Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:36 am
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I find Caledor's Bane great against WE, it kills treemen and treestumps with ease. Deathpiercer, meh, the killing blow isn't so great against the WE, as they don't have too many heavily armoured characters running around. But yeah, it's cheaper and does the job too. The reason it's great on dragon riders is to duel it out with other dragons and big nasties, giving your lord the edge. But you already had this discussion, so let's leave it.

Why 20 corsairs (4*5)? I'd go for a wider frontage, so 18 or 21.
You lose a rank, but as woodies usually don't have opposing ranks and are pretty squishy, 2 ranks might do.

Similary, why 14 repeaters? How you going to deploy those? I could understand 15 as a mini regiment in (5*3), or 10 as a single rank. If you're planning, 14*1, that's very unwieldy. Similary, 7*2 is a waste, the 1 point of combat resolution is not worth the 77 points doing nothing.

As for the execs and WE, unless you're planning to use the RXB for that role, you lack screening. Not really saying it ain't good, I just want to know how you envision it.


Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:05 am
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What's in the WE army you face?


Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:18 am
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Based on the fact that you are fighting WE, I might suggest manbane on your assassin. Against Treekin, Dryads, or the Treeman, its more useful than killing blow. The rest of the models don't have good armor saves, so there's no real good point in using it. As for Caledor's Bane, its better against the tree things. You're wounding treekin on 2s instead of 3s and wounding the Treeman on 3s instead of 4s. Also, I prefer units of 10 for crossbows, they're easier to spread out and get shots with the whole unit.

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Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:15 am
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I would try to get a hydra in there as it adds another unit that WE's struggle to deal with. Drop the crossbows down to 10's to get the points and drop a chariot.

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Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:13 pm
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Thanks for the comments everyone, I didn't expect so many new repies.

@Dark Alliance - I do not know my brothers exact army list but these are the models I can think of that he owns,
2 nobles
2 sorceress
1 branchwraith
1 treeman
40+ glade guard / scouts
8 glade riders
12 dryads
6 waywatchers
6 war dancers



The reason I had 2 units of 14 crossbows was to deploy 7x2 hopefully on a hill, with the sorceress in one unit, and 14 as there are 28 warriors in the battalion. I may however create executioners from some of the warriors, so 2x10 is fine for me now (leaving 8 plastic executioners...) - So I will change that in the list now.

The second chariot stays, despite the usefulness of a fiery Hydra, I will have 2 chariot models and so use them, and I always find Chariots work best in pairs. As for the corsairs, they were to go 5x4 yes.



___________________________________


Dreadlord on Black Dragon - 515
- Deathpiercer, Armour of Darkness, Pendant of Khaeleth

Death Hag BSB on Cauldron of Blood - 225
- two hand weapons

Sorceress level 1 - 150
- hand weapon, 2 dispel scrolls

Assassin - 151
- 2 poisoned hand weapons, Manbane, Rune of Khaine

20 Black Ark Corsairs - 250
- 2 hand weapons, light armour, sea dragon cloaks, full command, Sea Serpent Standard

10 Repeater Crossbowmen - 110
- repeater crossbows, light armour, shields

10 Repeater Crossbowmen - 110
- repeater crossbows, light armour, shields

20 Executioners - 240
- great weapons, heavy armour

10 Witch Elves - 100
- two poisoned hand weapons

Cold One Chariot - 100
- scythed wheels, spears, repeater crossbows

Cold One Chariot - 100
- scythed wheels, spears, repeater crossbows

Reaper Bolt Thrower - 100
- light armour

Reaper Bolt Thrower - 100
- light armour
_____
2250


- changed equipment, dropped crossbows, added executioners.


Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:14 pm
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For pure returns, check the tactics forum it might even be in bootcamp as to the benefit of increasing the corsairs by one or dropping 2 so that you change the number of ranks, but you can dramatically make a difference in your killing power.
As with all DE the frontage killing power makes more of a difference than the static bonuses. Especially with the benefits of the Sea Serpent Standard 3X6 would be an extra 3 attacks on the charge, rerollable which can be quite tasty compared to pure static res... Or if you found the points for it, that extra corsair in total would be a delicious extra 3 again, totalling 22 frenzied hatred attacks on the charge, much higher potential than 16 with an extra rank in my head. But it depends on where the points will be picked up elsewhere.

Same advice goes for the Executioners really,

But i suppose you have been doing this for a while, so just roll with whatever floats your boat. I should probably read all the posts and work out exactly what inspired your ranking.


Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:53 am
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