Dalamar's attempt at balanced army...

[Dalamar]

Without further ado. Here's an army that is capable of doing damage in all phases of the game, as well as withstand some in return.
Feels really awkward to me with so much infantry

Heroes [840pts]:

Supreme Sorcerer [405pts]
Level 4
Dark Pegasus
Focus Familiar
Hydra Teeth - experimental, so far used it only once and seems better than lifetaker since lifetaker is no longer magical.
Two Null Stones

Sorceress [185pts]
Level 2
Dispel Scroll
Dispel Scroll

Death Hag [250pts]
Battle Standard
Cauldron of Blood
Rune of Khaine

Core [677pts]:

24 Warriors [208pts]
Shields
Full Command Group
War Banner
Not sure about these guys (deployed 6x4)

10 Crossbowelves [110pts]
Shields

10 Crossbowelves [110pts]
Shields

6 Harpies [66pts]
both these units work as Supreme Sorcerer entourage, screening him from unwanted shooting
6 Harpies [66pts]

5 Dark Riders [117pts]
Repeater Crossbows
Musician

Special [283pts]:

15 Black Guard [283pts]
Tower Master, Standard Bearer
Banner of Hag Graef
Ring of Hotek

Rare [200pts]:

2 Reaper Bolt Throwers [200pts]

Total: 2000pts

Comments welcome. There's plenty in that list I'm not too used to.

[Rabidnid]

Supreme Sorcerer [405pts]
Level 4
Dark Pegasus
Focus Familiar
Hydra Teeth - experimental, so far used it only once and seems better than lifetaker since lifetaker is no longer magical.
Two Null Stones


SoG rather than 2 null talismans



Sorceress [185pts]
Level 2
Dispel Scroll
Dispel Scroll

ToF and DS just for the extra spell, as the more spells you have to choose from, the more effective your magic phase


15 Black Guard [283pts]
Tower Master, Standard Bearer
Banner of Hag Graef
Ring of Hotek


Seriously over-engnineered. The ring seems to be a crutch for a lot of people. You have 5-6 DD and 1-2 scrolls, so you don't need the ring. Drop one model, the ring, and switch the ASF banner for the BoM, for a 7x2 formation that can do serious damage.


2 Reaper Bolt Throwers [200pts]

Run a hydra instead, as the RBT are static and vulnerable, and really need a hill to be fully useful.



Overall you are lacking hard units. I would suggest dropping the spear block for another unit of 10 RXB, and use the balance of those points, and the points saved from your BG above to add a unit of CoKs. I would even drop the DR for a second unit of CoKs. With 2x5 naked CoK, hydra and BG you are suddenly looking intimidating in melee, while 30 RXB and a couple mages make your magic and shooting quite presentable.

Its would then be similar to what I run, which can anything from Orks, to Skaven, to WoC, to DoC reasonabley. I've never played VC with it, so no idea regarding them.

[Dalamar]

I don't see one extra overall DD as being more effective than 2 extra DD for *every* spell cast at where it hurts.

I wanted to go with SD and DS but I feel vulnerable with just one scroll. GT made me a bit more paranoid.

BG are meant to be the combat elites that they are cabable of taking and dealing damage in equal measure. Hopefully my crossbows, magic and bolt throwers will be able to silence the enemy's ranged capabilities forcing him to come to me (since warriors and BG will be sitting defensively without going forward much)

Yes Bolt Throwers are static, but don't need to get to the enemy to deal damage. Something hydra has to do and can be avoided. Bolts are much harder to dodge even if they deal less damage overall. They just deal in constantly while Hydra takes her time to get to her target.

[Hulkster]

I really like the list

I also think that the seal of grond would be better than the null talsimans, but i think it is as much a personal choice as anything.

I say keep the ring and banner on the BG. This should keep them safe into combat and allow them to win the combat rather than possibly straking last and being smashed.

This list needs the bolt throwers more than the hydra imho. I think the hydra would achieve little and the blot throwers will force the enemy to come to you.

[Dalamar]

Again, the bulk of the army is protected by RoH (as in everything except dark riders, harpies and supreme) so that single DD wouldn't make much difference IMO.

[Dark Alliance]

Without further ado. Here's an army that is capable of doing damage in all phases of the game, as well as withstand some in return.
Feels really awkward to me with so much infantry

Heroes [840pts]:

Supreme Sorcerer [405pts]
Level 4
Dark Pegasus
Focus Familiar
Hydra Teeth - experimental, so far used it only once and seems better than lifetaker since lifetaker is no longer magical.
Two Null Stones

IMO it is hard to mess up her equipment so it is simply down to personal taste. She has the peg and the focus familiar so everything else is always situational. I use the BDE you have the teeth, they both come as a surprise later in the game which is the key element I believe in.

The concern I have with the peg now is the advent of the Lizard list. On paper it looks like a Lizzie player should be fielding 2 units of Terradons, and on paper if they do, it looks like the peg should become a liability. That's all theorising of course as I haven't seen any Lizzie army play like that yet.

Obviously, watch out for the Black Tongue/Puppet combo Personally I'm moving away from the level 4 now (with the exception of the South Coast GT) in favour of combat.

Sorceress [185pts]
Level 2
Dispel Scroll
Dispel Scroll

Death Hag [250pts]
Battle Standard
Cauldron of Blood
Rune of Khaine

I think the rune is wasted points. Now the attendants are officially champions she should be able to survive on a ld stubborn test of 9 which can be rerolled, while she waits for support to arrive.

Core [677pts]:

24 Warriors [208pts]
Shields
Full Command Group
War Banner
Not sure about these guys (deployed 6x4)

This is an awesome unit. Try it out and see how good it is in combat. Great for putting in front of Flesh Hounds as they cannot beat it, and then die in round 2 when the support comes in. In a list like this they are a must IMO.

10 Crossbowelves [110pts]
Shields

10 Crossbowelves [110pts]
Shields

6 Harpies [66pts]
both these units work as Supreme Sorcerer entourage, screening him from unwanted shooting
6 Harpies [66pts]

5 Dark Riders [117pts]
Repeater Crossbows
Musician

Special [283pts]:

15 Black Guard [283pts]
Tower Master, Standard Bearer
Banner of Hag Graef
Ring of Hotek

The centre of the army. Leave as is. It is a tried and tested formula which wins games. In conjunction with the spears it gives a solid combat line.

I think there is a slight improvement which could benefit the list, and which you should consider playtesting as well. The enhancement points in this list which could be utilised elsewhere are;

Rune of Khaine
DR musician
Crossbow shields
4 Spears

I would consider using these to get either a chariot or a unit of Shades. Either would give that extra edge to the list.

Rare [200pts]:

2 Reaper Bolt Throwers [200pts]

Good call. Dropped my Hydra now too. There are too many high strength flaming attacks out there now, and new Lizzies can take him off the board with ease.

Total: 2000pts

Comments welcome. There's plenty in that list I'm not too used to.

Let me know if you want a practice with this... I'm at GW from 11.ooam today. Taking my filthy dragon list for it's inaugral outing, funnily enough against new Lizards

[Grandmaster ej]

Its interesting watching the evolution of the game through peoples list generating in the context of new books, me and tom are experiementing with the idea of going to a tournament thats experiementing with no composition limitations, were going to try to get them to change it back, take 2 identical daemon armies and make them regret not having restrictions

Personally atm I think the game needs limitations, UK GT just about gets away with it with their scenarios but even that is teatering on the edge of boredom for many players.

Im not entirely sure where il be taking my DE armies next although ive not been a fan of the hydra in particular for a long while, given that I own a tzeench daemon army and I fully understand the rediculusly good spell that is flickering fire...

Anyway, back onto the subject, the cauldron never needs temple upgrades its hard enough as it is, Id go with the magic res aswell over the extra dice, and so long as you have the manoverability to hover around the ring there is no reason NOT to include it other than having a magic weapon on the tower master. Not entirely sure about hydras teeth on the level 4, she may not be able to hit many things that she wants to hit with her BS of 4... such as cairne wraiths who would be too close anyway given that she would have to be in charge range to hit them, but at the same time I can see that there are times it could be useful.

[Geoguswrek]

DA: I disagree that lizzies are gonna stop the SS on DP.
In my mind terradons offer a similar threat level to DR with RXB (maybe a little higher). you are gonna kill them relatively easily in a single rounds shooting, its just getting to see the blighters thats an issue. and for that its just keeping out of 20" of their hiding place and forcing them to come to out if they want to do anything (maybe give them some harpies to drop stones on to get them to come out? and then kill them). Of course you are handicapped slightly by having the RoH giving another circle you don't want to enter but its probably dealable. (the real question is whether, given the extra restrictions, a comba character would do better).

Dalamar: i'm not really sure on the role of the cauldron here. You have 2 units that really benefit from it's influence (a big unit of warriors, and a unit of BG) the rest can use it, but this is where it'll be best, but these units aren't relly gonna get much combat (especially not the BG) and theres isn't much protecting the cauldron, which is quite slow and only has 4 t3 wounds in combat, from being put into combat (a dedicated WM hunter will get there relatively easily unless shot).
If you want a BSB i'd go for Da's pendant bearer.
Finally

Hydras Teeth

- good man. I reckon this item will be amazing in some games - it lets you go off an kill a wizard (just avoid retaliatory shooting) giving you a little bit more magic edge. generating 10? hits on one wizard should kill it, regardless of the low str/ws of the hits.

[Dalamar]

The Rune of Khaine found its way there because the list ended up at 1975 points and I had nothing to spend the rest on!

I was thinking about a chariot (love them!) but couldn't find the points. Removing your little list Gary gives me 80 points, not enough for one but exactly perfect for a small unit of shades.

I know and am worried about rock dropping terradons flying over my sorcerer... But hopefully 25 crossbows, 2 bolt throwers and some magic will see them flying the other way.

and yes. I do want to practice with it but only have time Thursday daytime this week. Let me know if you'll be around, I wanted to see your dragon in person .

Hydra Teeth with BS4 hit almost always on 3+ (unless skirmisher, cover etc.) so it really isn't bad when you can throw as many of them as you like on a lonely wizard . Sadly it's not a magic weapon but enchanted item so the attacks are far from magical, but I wouldn't want to be within 12" of cairn wraiths anyway!

The role of the Cauldron is to buff Warriors and Black Guard, having two units it can buff already means that each turn one will have to do without the blessing. You don't need whole army of buffable units to make cauldron work. Last game I used it in it buffed corsairs 90% of the time and they made a mince out of everything they met.

I was thinking of somehow getting witch elves in there as Cauldron with no Witch Elves demands a non-khainite conversion but that would mean I'd have to drop the warriors completely for a unit of 18 Witches with Hag, Standard and no other gear.

[Grandmaster ej]

BAH you dont need an army wide unit selection for your buffs, my GT heats army did well enough almost always just buffing black guard (on occasion a DR unit or shades).

Terradons are a problem because, as you said, you wont see them in order to shoot them, so magic would be the only reliable way to kill them and if you fail to do so your most likely taking the rocks next turn.

[Deadlydeception]

24 Warriors [208pts]
Shields
Full Command Group
War Banner
Not sure about these guys (deployed 6x4)

I think that if you do end up using these guys, a 5x4 with four extra might be better. You hold on to your rank bonus a little longer, and really, what are two more spear attacks going to do?

I also agree that the ring might be overkill, but that really depends on your gaming environment.

[Marauder mitch2]

Piotr, i think the shades are a must to add some more shooting, espeically now with the terradons flying about.

[Grandmaster ej]

definatly, although one must remember that shades are also vuneruble to terradons...

[Dangerous Beans]

as I discovered the other day...

- Beanz

[Dark Alliance]

Terradons ARE a potential problem indeed and do need to be givem respect (despite George disagreeing with most things I say these days...), but better they chase the Shades than the Level 4. Rocks are a one use ability so if you can encourage them to drop them elsewhere then great!

@Jamie: regarding the UK tourney scene, things are afoot my friend...

[Marauder mitch2]

a foot = 12 inches.

If they are dropping rock on the shades they have doen the job. Also the extra shooting forces them to hide better. The hydra teeth are a good option agains thm so i might see if i can put in in my list.

[Ronen warrior]

I really like the ilst overall. There is definitely room for improvement though. First off, lifetaker is still a must. It puts fear into things like skirmishers and fast cav that can often avoid other shooting. It's also effective on things like ogres, which often from other shooting will have just 1 of 3 wounds remaining, allowing you to peel off models and force panic checks. Lifetaker = Awesomesauce (albeit no longer Mega-Awesomesauce since it isn't magic anymore).

Personally, I would drop the hag and the couldron. At 2250, she's great. At 2000 in a magic list, she's something more than you can can afford. You have more than 40% of your points in characters. With her out, you can afford 2 chariots and add a second unit of 5 harpies (dropping the 6 to a 5).

Alternatively you can add a hydra and a unit of shades. Or two units of CoK's, or 3 additional units of fast cav, or or or or... there's oodles of choices that will serve you better in a small list then extra characters that can be taken out too easily.

I trend towards MSU with every dark elf list I build, so take my advice with that grain of salt on it, but I think you've got too many points tied up 5 models.

[Geoguswrek]

@DA it is nothing personal..... honest.
and i admit they are a worry, just one that can be dealt with as long as you think about it and move your units in a way to block off certain avenues of approach (and don't hide your SS behind a wood like a numpty)

[Marauder mitch2]

The COB is immense and i like the list. He has got more combat potential to deal the the Daemons and the staitc with 5+ ward is great.

[Dalamar]

Hydra Teeth is worse than Lifetaker against skirmishers and anything that hides in cover.

But keeping them hidden until really important is a huge bonus. enemy wizards thinking themselves safe behind enemy lines? drop them two teeth each and watch as they get shredded, same with light cavalry or other small units. Try it out yourself, it has amazing surprise factor as nobody expects the Spanish Inqui... err... I mean, the Hydra Teeth

I'm guessing against the lizardmen terradons would be one of my first targets. They tend to operate outside of Slaan Ld range so they are quite susceptible to panicking off the table.
And yes, as long as terradons drop their rocks on something else than Level 4 I'm not too worried.

[Grandmaster ej]

Makse sense, I think I might be returning to my old character combo of level 4, level 2 + master on manticore, see how that fairs.

[Marauder mitch2]

Or what i have been toying around with lifetaker on the level 2 in xbows and hydras teeth on the lvl 4.

[Dark Alliance]

@ Dalamar: I'm not available today mate. Maybe next week.

My dragon did what I expected btw (in response to your text question). Took new Lizards off the board and then Ogres off the board. Second game was to be expected though.

Give respect to the Engine of the Gods. He killed all my Knights in one turn with the damage spell!

[Marauder mitch2]

I know, well done gary. Lets see you Devourer list. I am using a modified version of the finals list.

[Dark Alliance]

Dragon, 2 level 2s, DRs, rxbs, Harpies, Coks, Shades and RBTs