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2500pts Double Manti List.
http://www.druchii.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=67461
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Author:  Arthalion hirdûr [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:  2500pts Double Manti List.

Hi all. I need your help for my old list of DE. I used to play it back in the V6 and V7 with pretty good results. Here is the old stuff:

Dreadlord riding a manticore and various equipments.
Master riding a manticore and various equipments.
Sorcerer level 1 "scroll caddie"

20 warriors, shields, musician, standard.
20 warriors, shields, musician, standard.
10 xbows, shields, musician.
5 dark riders, xbows, musician.
5 dark riders, xbows, musician.

2 COC
5 shades
6 COK, FC
5 harpies

1 Hydra
2 RBT



I don't know how can i really update it for the V8 cause i haven't played it yet. So i wanted opinions of other DE generals.

I want to keep the spirit of the list: monsters, some cavalry, no or few magic caster,... I think you get my goal.

But with all the new rules i think my army is less strong than before. Mounted characters are more fragile and i guess i need to increase the number of elves in my differents units.

I'm waiting your answers and don't worry about the figurines, i have enough of them for each units.

Thanks !



And sorry if some sentences are weird, i'm french.

Author:  Enkiel [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:31 pm ]
Post subject: 

scroll caddy dont work anymore (you can only have 1 DS/army)

personally, i think you NEED a BSB.

without proper magic defense (a lvl4), you could face problem, but i know some people plays that way.

Author:  Guinea pig hydra [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:33 pm ]
Post subject: 

- We kinda need to know what various equipment your Heroes have.
- Manticore's have taken a huge hit in 8th. You could still get away with one if you play it perfectly, but two feels like a big waste of points.
- As Enkiel said the 'scroll caddy' is no longer viable as characters can only take one magic item in each category (Weapon/Armour/Enchanted/Arcane)
- To rule yourself completely out of a phase is very dangerous. A Level 1, even more so without the ToF, is pointless. She will get no spells off, and will struggle to dispel anything.
- 8th is an infantry game and the spears will die quickly in smallish groups. Merge the two groups together.
- The XBmen are too small a group, they're not strong enough to take anything meaningful with just ten of them. Try to bump it up to 20.
- A lot of people have stopped using DR now since baiting is no longer viable. People will only tend to take them in groups of 10 or more.
- The COK are in too small a group to live long enough to do anything more than one charge.
- RBT aren't really worth the points anymore.
- You only have three standards if you play 'Blood and Glory'

The key thing I think you need to take into consideration is the necessity to have troops in 8th. You've got too many points in the MantiHeroes, try to get more bodies. A Special unit is considered rather manditory nowadays, be your preference for Witches, Execs or BG.

Author:  Calisson [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:30 pm ]
Post subject: 

Rather than "what you have sucks", a more interesting - and challenging - approach would be "this is what it takes to make what you have work best".

Manticore are not dead.

BS shooting
They have a better resistance to BS shooting, because there is no longer +1 to shoot at large targets, and they can benefit from a hard cover behind harpies, total -3 to be shot at compared to before.
There is also a strong tendency to have much less BS shooting as before.
Additionally, there is much more terrain as there used to be, especially in the 12" radius circle around the center, which had to be empty in 7th ed.

warmachine shooting
The first danger faced by Manti is warmachines.
These no longer have to guess any range. It makes little difference against veterans, though.
They have no longer 3/6 chances to hit for models partially covered. Worse, both mount and rider are simultaneously hit, contrary as before.
With all these advantages, warmachines are more popular as ever for Empire (who now can reroll artillery dices with engineers), Dwarves, Brets, Goblins and more.
The only good point is that there is now a magic item with a 6+ ward save against warmachines.
So warmachines are an issue, which can be solved by killing them early (plus Dark magic spell #1).

Melee
Manti used to rock in melee: they would kill the front rank and face no retaliation.
Nowadays, they are more killy with the thunderstomp, but no matter how many you kill,
- more will step in, and all of them will probably aim at the Manti
- as long as 5 remain, the opposing unit is steadfast and has to pass an unmodified Ld test, which can be rerolled by the nearby BSB
- if side-charged, they will rearrange with a Ld test (rerollable), resulting in them facing the Manti and getting support attacks from 2d ranks (more for spears).

As a result, going in a melee is not as easy victory as it used to be.


What can be done?
1. Keep the Manti cheap, cause you'll be likely to loose them.
That means two Mantimasters, no Mantilords.
2. Make your sorc a Lvl4 and make her the general.
3. Make most of your army as juicy a target for marmachines as your Mantis: BG, Execs, DRs...
4. Kill warmachines quickly. Many DRs, Shades, Harpies, and, of course, the MantiMasters.

This done, there will be a need to destroy big blocks.
The trick is to make combo-charges.
The opposing mammoth unit cannot rearrange if it is charged on two sides. So if you combo charge with 2 Mantis + hydra on side or rear, they will stay on side & rear, where they will suffer less attacks. This is also a good use for COC: they kill a lot on the charge and hardly anything thereafter, but rheir presence is enough to prevent the opponent to rearrange and face the Manti.
If you managed to kill the opposing BSB somehow (Death magic is nice) and lower the opposing Ld (Death magic, again), the Mammoth will fail its Ld test some day. If it doesnt, being thunderstomped twice should deal some damages.

Overall, besides your two MantiMasters (one being BSB), I'd advise:
- a Lvl4, Death, dagger
- 30 spearmen as babysitter,
- Either 20 RXBmen (Tower scenario #6) or none.
- more DR in units of 5 (so that some will survive turn 1 shooting and charge warmachines) but without RXB
- many more harpies
- 5 vanilla COK
- 2 COC are nice
- more Shades units of 5, AHW
- 2 hydras if you can
- no RBT

Please not that I am have no Manti of my own. The advice is only base on the knowledge of the games mechanics.
You'll have to develop your own methods to get a grasp on your army.
Good luck!

Author:  Arthalion hirdûr [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:56 am ]
Post subject: 

Ok with your advices i wrote that:

-Sorc Lvl4, dagger.
- Master BSB, shield, heavy armour, SDC, lance, manticore.
- Master shield, heavy armour, SDC, lance, manticore.

- 30 spearmen FC, shields.
- 20 RXBmen, FC, shields.
- 3*5 DR.
- 2*5 harpies.

- 5 COK.
- 2 COC.
- 5 shades AHW.

- 2 hydras.

It seems to be nice and i have 87pts left. I don't really know how to use it. Maybe another unit of shades or maybe give some magic items to my characters cause they are a little bit "naked".

I like the army but what if i don't want to play a lvl4 sorc ?

Author:  Calisson [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:19 pm ]
Post subject: 

Sure, upgrade your characters!
Muso on DR are necessary. A muso on COK won't hurt, too.
For the fortitude scenario, beware that you don't have that many pennants. One more on DR could prove useful.
Final note, the Ld banner on spearmen will upgrade the general's Ld to 10, oculd be nice.

The sorc is very useful for magic defense.
In addition, the winds of magic are there so why not to use them?
Finally, as said above, playing manti heavy won't be an easy task, you'd better add whatever you can to help them. Magic is close to a necessity (hence the very powerful dagger Lvl4).

On a side note, the Lore must be chosen when building the army list.

Author:  Arthalion hirdûr [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:17 pm ]
Post subject: 

I'm not saying not to use the winds of magic but i think a level 2 could be enough to cast some spells and to provide some magic defense.

I can give my BSB the Pendant of Kaeleth and to the other master the Armour of eternal servitude.

I prefer the shadow lore to the death lore. I find it more useful: you can kill at a long distance and you can really help your units in close combat.

For the fortitude scenario, the list i'd post add 5 points (general, BSB and 2 standards). Add one is not necessary, is it ? 6 or 5 points i have to lose 3 of them to lose the game.
Right ?

Author:  Calisson [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:42 pm ]
Post subject: 

I really think you need the best magic you can get to compensate for the weaknesses of your manti list.

OK with your other remarks.

Please report how your double-manti list behaves! There are not many such lists to be seen.

Author:  Minaras [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:28 pm ]
Post subject: 

Looks like a really fun list to play, definatly let us know how it works out. Great advice by Cal btw, can only agree with just about everything.

Havent used a Manti in 8th myself yet, guess I'm too much of a scaredy cat :D

Author:  Arthalion hirdûr [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:29 pm ]
Post subject: 

That was fun to play in V6 and V7. I hope it will be in V8 too !

Calisson gave good advices it's true. I can't wait to play with it and i 'll report how it behaves.

You should try to play Manti, it's great.

Author:  Arthalion hirdûr [ Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:45 pm ]
Post subject: 

Hi again all.
I'm here again cause i need advices. There's a tournament in april and we'll play 2500pts. I'll play my list but there is some restrictions:

DE can't play 2 hydras, no more than 40 rxbs, we have to choose either PoK or Sac Dagger and we can't take the same unit 3 times.

So I have to change things.

My list:


-Sorc Lvl4, dagger (shadow lore i think).
- Master BSB, shield, heavy armour, SDC, lance, manticore.
- Master shield, heavy armour, SDC, lance, manticore.

- 30 spearmen FC, shields.
- 20 RXBmen, FC, shields.
- 2*5 DR.
- 2*5 harpies.

- 5 COK.
- 2 COC.
- 5 shades AHW.

- 1 hydra.

Here i have 2238pts.

I don't know what to do with the 262pts left. I wanted first to play RBT but everybody say that it's not efficient. I also could play my CoK by 10 with Hag Graef Banner.

I don't know what is the best choice. If you have other ideas, I'm listening !

Author:  Arthalion hirdûr [ Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:54 pm ]
Post subject: 

Hi all.

So i went to a tournament last week-end and try my list.

I played this:

-Sorc Lvl4, black amulet, ironcurse (Dark Lore).
- Master, shield, heavy armour, SDC, lance, manticore.
- Master, shield, heavy armour, SDC,whip of agony, manticore.

- 30 spearmen FC, shields.
- 20 RXBmen, FC, shields.
- 2*5 DR.
- 2*5 harpies.

- 10 COK, full command, Hag Graef.
- 2 COC.
- 5 shades AHW.

- 1 hydra.

Some explanations:

There were some rectrictions as I said in my previous post. I chose to play neither the Dagger nor the PoK and try the black amulet. More funny and opponents didn't expect to it. I wanted to combine it with the Soul Eater.

No bsb cause i was out of points for my heroes. It was total WYSIWYG and one of my master is converted with the whip of agony. So be it.

And finally my big block of CoK. They are my favourite unit for ages and i wanted to try a big one (I am also proud with the way i painted them).

4 games, 2500pts.

First round versus Lizardmen.

Big block of skinks with 3 krox, 5 salamanders, bsb riding a cold one, kuraq riding a cold one with a great weapon, big block of guard, two slaans (!), terradons and some skinks.

He chose life and fire lore. Got the first turn. Everybody moved, i wanted to engage close combat as soon as possible. My first magic phase i cast some spells, it’s dispelled, last spell (word of pain) with 3 dices, double 6, then 10 and my sorcerer lose 3 levels. Ouch.
It was hard to resist to two slaans for the rest of the game. One of my master killed the bsb (killing blow of my manti !). I crushed his block of guard with the slaan life thanks to a CoC, a hydra and later the other master. It was hard cause saurus had the most of the time 6 or 8 toughness. The game ended finally with a draw. I lost my sorcerer in last turn because he cast the 6th spell of life on his unit and i couldn’t dipselled it.

Second round versus Orcs and Goblins.

Never played them since the new armybook. We have points only with killing other characters, keeping ours alive and taking banners. He had a level 4 on an arak, a bsb and a level 2 orc shaman both in a 30 strong unit of savages orcs.
I won the battle with a short victory. None of my charaters died and i kill his bsb with a master thanks to his manticore in the last turn ! That was fun for me. Not for my opponent.

Third round versus Lizardmen.

We can win by taking points on the battlefield. I won cause my list was better prepared to it than his. My masters were good one more time, they killed 20 saurus and it was hard. His slaan used light lore and cast spell on them to help. My masters finally both died but were really helpfull to win.

Fourth round versus High Eves.

White Lions (2units), 2*10 longbows, 40 spearmen, 2 eagles, 1 level 1 (metal), 1 level 2 (life), 5 heavy cavalry, a bsb riding a horse and a big prince riding the biggest dragon.
I realised that i have nothing to kill him and it was scary.
At this time i’m playing for the top 3. But nothing happened as expected. Too many double 6 in his magic phase, too many ld test failed for myself and bad choices make him the winner of the game. Second turn he killed my hydra in one spell (first one of the metal lore, second effect), and my master close to it fail his ld test and flee from the battlefield.
But my sorcerer kill the bsb with the black amulet ! Gnark !

I finally reach the 8th place on a total of 20 players. But i won the paint prize !

Finally, in my case, Manti still work. It was fun to see other player’s faces when they see my army. The first Lizardmen was totally disturbed and didn’t no how to deal with my army, which is uncommon for Dark Elves.
Fortunatelly for me I didn’t play vs warmachines. And as a Manti fly, you can really go where you want and try not to take too much arrows. I think Mantis are still strength cause many players are surprised and i realise many have nothing or few possibilities to kill them before they reach the close combat. Of course they are a little bit fragile but if you can take them on the flank, it’s great (and not difficult to do).

God i love Manticores !

Author:  Ravenschyld [ Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:22 pm ]
Post subject: 

my faith in the big cats has returned!

good template for taking two manticores in a list as well, would love to see the paint job you won the prize for.

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