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Standardising a List 
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Malekith's Personal Guard

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so...I should just keep experimenting lol

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Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:33 am
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In fact, that is probably the best. While others can give you insight from their point of view, which is definitely helpful, there are always some variables, which are different to what you are looking at, so personal experience is the most valuable still.

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Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:24 am
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Hay mates, thanks to the interesting debate about the pros and cons of corsairs.
It was honestly much more interesting than a one-sided presentation.
I fully support the conclusion that this unit fits some gaming styles better than others, some gaming environment better than others, some lists better than others.

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Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:40 am
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L1qw1d wrote:
so...I should just keep experimenting lol


Well you asked about "standardising"so let's put it simply. Imo, DE standard units that fit any list are:

30+ Spearmen block
Harpies
Crossbowmen
Sorceress (level 4 or 2 depending on list)
Hydra
BSB (Popular setups are COB BSB, COK BSB, BSB on DP and BSB on foot usefullness in that order also)


in that order.

Everything else is taken by choice and gamestyle preference.

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Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:48 am
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Quote:
so...I should just keep experimenting lol


:) I think so. A lot of it does come down to how you play as to which units you pick. There are no good or bad units in the DE army book, so you really can choose those that suit best.

I don't think there are any essential units per se. My personal preferences are for at least one big block of warriors or corsairs, a couple of small/medium units of RxBs, one or two units of harpies and one or two units of dark riders . I generally run a single hydra and one Reaper Bolt Thrower (why I use one rather than two is a story for another time :P). After that, I tend to have at least one really nasty fighting unit (a big block of witches or blackguard for example) and maybe a supplementary hammer unit (e.g. a unit of 8+ CoKs).

But it's all personal play style. Just whatever you do, don't choose a big block of dark riders when you're likely to be up against anything with a stone thrower in it!


Quote:
Hay mates, thanks to the interesting debate about the pros and cons of corsairs.
It was honestly much more interesting than a one-sided presentation.
I fully support the conclusion that this unit fits some gaming styles better than others, some gaming environment better than others, some lists better than others.


Thanks Calisson and Thanee - it gets so easy to get carried away with debates on here sometimes! And yes, I agree with you :)

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Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:31 pm
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I read this thread with rapt interest. A very good debate.
I think that it would be interesting to watch a game between
Ichiyo And red. Just saying :)


Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:53 pm
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Doug wrote:
I read this thread with rapt interest. A very good debate.
I think that it would be interesting to watch a game between
Ichiyo And red. Just saying :)
would you offer to be the referee? :D
Technical inspiration could be Intersite battle

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Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:51 pm
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Hi there,

I've through most of the thread, until it became a tough discussion about proper argumenting rather than actual points in favour/against Corsairs xD.

I must say i fully agree with Ichiyo. Corsairs are, imho, sub-competitive and the reason is that, for their points cost, you get a lot more spear bodies. How does this affect the gaming? Well, first of all, it is just NOT true that Corsairs stand shooting better. For the points cost of 30 frenzied Corsairs, you get like 54 Spearmen. In the rare case of being facing S3 shooting, Corsairs MAY stand it better but, seriously, how many S3 shooting out there is actually gonna threat us? Skink shooting? Bows? Are you guys gonna pay 350 points just because you're afraid of bows? How about screening with Harpies? And what's more important, having WEs and BG do you really think you opponent is going to be aiming at your Spearmen or Corsairs? Now, in the case of actual shooting threats, that is, S5 templates, S4 shooting...guys, 30 bodies with 6+AS vs 54 bodies with no AS...Spearmen are going to stand shooting just as well as Corsairs against serious, painful shooting. My conclusion, based on experience, is that Spearmen stand shooting just as well as Corsairs because their lower cost allow o incude them in higher numbers.

Now, regarding combat, I can't consider the point "Corsairs with CoB plus Mindrazor rock" because if you give Spearmen CoB blessing plus Mindrazor they do rock as well. Ok, with Corsairs you get 7 more attacks but guys, are there units that would die to 50 S8 attacks and wouldnt die to 30 S8 attacks as well? I mean, how big are the units you usually fight? I'll talk about my gaming experience, when it comes to defeating 20 Chosen Knights, 30 S8 hatred attacks are just as well as 50 since they won't stand them. Then, why paying more for virtually nothing? And when it comes to fighting on their own without external help, you are not going to take down elite fighters with your Corsairs alone, as you won't with Spearmen. So if you want to smack Zombies or Swordmen, Corsairs will do well, but will you pay 10 points per model just for that? Let's assume you spend you core requirements in such mediocre killing power. Who is then going to take the rol of tarpiting nasty enemy units in your lists? My point here is that we've got better killing power in the rest of the book outside core choices, but we have no better r&f. That alone means, for me, that Spearmen will always go first and that only in very big games would I consider including Corsairs to match the core requirements.

Another point I'd like to mention is that to get such high number of attacks from Corsairs you've got to deploy them in horde formation, which I personally find a big mistake. Such a loss of maneouvrability...this is just a personal feeling, but i don't feel comfortable with such units, specially if frenzied...

Another point is that Spearmen have multiple roles in any army and, unlike Corsairs, they work for themselves and for the rest of the list. I'll explain this. Spearmen, as we all know, can serve as fuel for the Dagger while being a bunker for the Supreme Sorceress. They can also assint combats providing ranks. If you have truoble with r&f enemy units that seek to tarpit your elites, bring Spearmen in and let them deny your opponent their Steadfast rule. Sure you can do this with Corsairs too, but then again...paying Corsairs to make ranks when Spearmen do just as well for less points? Eventually, you can use Spearmen as tarpits to buy you time. You don't want your 350 points Corsair unit to try and tarpit 1 HPA, but you won't mind sending it 54 Spearmen. So, on one hand we have Spearmen who bunker Sorceresses, tarpit nasty units, sacrifice themselves to buy us time, deny Steadfast and all this with such a low points cost (30 Spearmen are 200 points approx) and, on the other hand we have Corsairs who can only pay back by killing stuff, rol that they can't accomplish very weel unless they get superb support from CoB and Lvl4s, not to mention that this support is most usually required by our elite troops. In my gaming experience, the reality has always been that Corsairs end up doing poorly because all my support has to go to BG and CoKs and Corsairs have to seek to engage with mediocre troops.

On a final note, the only rewarding way of playing Corsairs that I've found is in small, thus affordable, units. In 2.5k-3k games, units of 14-21 with SSS which come in at 190-260 points and that can either fight other support units or assist my elite troops with a reasonable hitting power. But even this I find is better acomplished by Warriors.


Well, and I'd add all that Ichiyo has said. So, summing up, Warriors have always worked WELL while Corsairs have always been a source of problems and been little to no rewarding in my gaming experience. I do fully agree that Corsairs are sub-competitive in 3k or lower points games. Still I sometimes field them just for the fluff, which is sooooo awesome :)


Well, that was my 2cents...

Hope it helped.

Byee


Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:46 am
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Quote:
how many S3 shooting out there is actually gonna threat us? Skink shooting? Bows?

This sort of argument is frustrating, because it's really not well thought through. Innumerable armies have massed S3 bowfire, including but certainly not limited to:
Goblin archers
All Wood Elf archers
All High Elf archers
Lizardmen Skinks
Tomb King undead archers
Brettonian archers
Empire archers

The new volley fire rules makes them more devastating than ever before.

Also note that S4 and S5 missiles are just -1 to AP and -2 accordingly - that's a 5+ save for corsairs and then a 6+ save. It's not until S6 that corsairs get no save at all, compared to S4 for warriors without shields and S5 for warriors with shields.

Quote:
to get such high number of attacks from Corsairs you've got to deploy them in horde formation


Wrong. Every SSS corsair model gets 3 attacks, so smaller frontages and less deep frontages still yield many attacks (10 corsairs aligned in two ranks of 5 get 20 attacks, compare that to 15 for three ranks of spearmen (assuming they recieve the charge, otherwise its ten). A unit of corsairs will essentially always have a good number more attacks for their unit, and keep that high number when they charge (unlike warriors who lose such a bonus)

Quote:
And what's more important, having WEs and BG do you really think you opponent is going to be aiming at your Spearmen or Corsairs?


Why are you assuming that you're taking two optional units?

Quote:
Another point is that Spearmen have multiple roles in any army

Corsairs = attack and hold troops
Spearmen = hold or dagger troops
Seems about the same to me.

Anyway, most of my points I've already made, so I'm bowing out of this debate. Good luck to you all.

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Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:32 pm
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Hi there,

Regarding the S3, I asked how much of the S3 shooting out there is a real threat to us. Bretonian bowmen? Goblin archers? I don't consider any BS3, S3 shooting a threat. Why? Because of 8ed rules for true LoS which allow to get cover from almost anything in the table, thus harshly reducing the casualties taken from BS based shooting. From BS shooting, only high S shooting can actually become a threat or maybe poisoned shooting. There fore, from the list you pointed I only consider an actual threat Wood Elves' Glade Guard, Skinks and Tomb Kings' Archers. And from these, only WE's shooting is hard to shut down with mere Harpies/DRs. So yes, I still consider that most S3 shooting is not threatening to us. When it comes to high S impacts that easily wound us elves, the improved AS of the Corsairs tends to become worthless. In my gaming experience and in my maths, Warriors resist shooting just as well.

Regarding taking or not WEs or BG, I just pointed them as an example since most lists include at least one elite infantry, but in the case that you decided not to include elite infantry at all (which is something I'm actually fond of), still that leaves us with the fact that Corsairs are only slightly better at taking shots, if they are any better at all.

Eventually, I must disagree that Corsair's rol in the army is to hold enemy troops. I don't pay 10 points per wound to have them holding units if I can pay only 6. Of course you can use them in that fashion, but you can't say that this way of using them is optimal at all. The optimal troop to use as a tarpit is Warriors. Also, the optimal troop to deny Steadfast are Warriors and the optimal troop to use as fuel Dagger are Warriors. On the other hand, the optimal troop to provide hitting power are not Corsairs. I'm not saying that Corsairs can't perform well in a agame, I'm only saying that Corsairs are simply sub-competitive and that there are other troops in our army that perform better.

I can understand the point that you may want absolutely all your troops to be able to deliver some hits, even your core troops. But this makes for an unbalanced, glasscannon-like list that lacks the versatility that more balanced lists with different kind of troops, appropriated for different task, have.

At least, that's how I see it.


Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:51 pm
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Malekith's Personal Guard

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oh, I forgot: if I were looking for a numerically similar number to fill Core @ 2500, I found out that: 46 Spears w/ Shields, no Lordling, just Musician and SB with Discipline commits JUST under the 350 for a fully kitted Corsair unit

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Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:26 am
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Not going to answer any more questions, but wanted to add two more thing to my points overall:

A corsair champ gets 4 attacks, whereas a warrior champ gets just two. Not a huge difference in open combat, but massively different in a challenge. 4 attacks is far more likely to get the needed kill against an enemy champ or hero (and even has a chance of killing an unhurt enemy lord), whereas 2 attacks makes it much much harder to kill an enemy champ or hero (and makes it physically impossible to kill an unhurt enemy lord).

The other is on the holding front. Because SSS corsairs are ITP (as already mentioned), you are guaranteed for them not to run away as a result of being charged by a terror causing creature or any other panic causing effects. That's hugely important for hold tactics. Given that warriors are just leadership 8, without ITP, the chances of them running away if forced to take a panic test (and given the growing range of terror causing monsters this is a threat) are worryingly high. Yes, a nearby BSB or General can help the warriors, but that doesn't fully solve the problem and then you're 'babysitting the unit' and I hear that core units shouldn't need to be babysat... (Yes, corsairs may lose their frenzy in close combat, but that doesn't detract from their ITP and extra attacks unitl they do so, and even when they lose both those things, they only drop to the same number of attacks as warriors and have the same leadership).

And now I'm really done (last post here, I promise!) Do what you want with your core choices, at least I know that people should be well informed and can make informed choices :)

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Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:09 am
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Hi there,

We all want people to be well informed to make good choices. Let's then not only talk about the advantages of being ITP, let's also mention the drawbacks to it. Let's also start to speak about Frenzy rather than ITP because these Corsairs we're speaking about are Frenzied, which is quite different from being just ITP. I'm sure we all know what this involves: not being able to flee, having to take tests to avoid charging since the very begining of the game and having to pursue and overrun, which I find to be a huge problem easily exploitable by our opponent. It's up to each player to decide if having +1 attack per model in front rank and being ITP compensates for the drawbacks. I personally try to always avoid Frenzied units because in my gaming environment lists always include a decent number of support units that punish hard Frenzied units and earn easy VPs from them.

@L1qw1d: If you were to include Warriors instead of Corsairs, consider including them with little to no upgrades. Full command group maybe, but no shields. Having more bodies is most usually more useful. You want quantity from them, not quality x)

My 2 cents


Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:16 am
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Sorry but I can't resist this...

Goblin archers -----Sure...range 18" BS 3. I fight a OnG army with 40 archers, never was bothered by them ever.

All Wood Elf archers----Again why would I use Corsairs against them if they can't even catch them? See much WE lately?

All High Elf archers---- we are talking competitive gaming, ask HE players if they even field that many or any archers at all...

Lizardmen Skinks-----Skinks won't shoot at Corsairs...Seriosuly they must be retarded Liz players to shoot at Corsairs first than Hydras, COKs, COB, BG, WE etc etc...Can your Corsairs go to to toe one on one with Saurus Blocks with no magic assistance? They can do that to DE and use their spells elsewhere and we have to devote ours to help them win. Already a losing strategy.

Tomb King undead archers----Doesn't matter what you field against them anyway so yes footslogging t3,4+ at 350 points...

Brettonian archers-----NEVER have I seen Bretts field that much archers to be a threat and even if they do, still not a threat.

Empire archers---- toss in Dwarves. We ate talking com-pe-ti-tiveness...People no longer bring BS based gublines. The only shooting army still competitive are Dwarves and Empire and they use Warmachines where your 4+AS won't mean much. Saving on 6's is not really as good as no save against mass number of templates. I'd rather have more units to have more threats. DE RXBmen are an exception as we can kill via mass fire. Plain BS based shooting was nerfed to hell in 8th edition...this is one of the 3 reasons WE can't compete anymore.

Again, we are talking about competitiveness, you are taking a unit to handle insubstantial threats...investing in a unit that is mediocre given the current environment. Please remember that what is competitive greatly depends on the current meta.. You can be the most skillfull general, alive but let's face reality, if your opponents is almost as good as you but they have a better list, better armybook, what more can you expect?

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Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:11 pm
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Red... wrote:
The other is on the holding front. Because SSS corsairs are ITP (as already mentioned), you are guaranteed for them not to run away as a result of being charged by a terror causing creature or any other panic causing effects. That's hugely important for hold tactics. Given that warriors are just leadership 8, without ITP, the chances of them running away if forced to take a panic test (and given the growing range of terror causing monsters this is a threat) are worryingly high. Yes, a nearby BSB or General can help the warriors, but that doesn't fully solve the problem and then you're 'babysitting the unit' and I hear that core units shouldn't need to be babysat... (Yes, corsairs may lose their frenzy in close combat, but that doesn't detract from their ITP and extra attacks unitl they do so, and even when they lose both those things, they only drop to the same number of attacks as warriors and have the same leadership).



What I meant about babysitting units is that they need another unit to be effective...What units have Terror?? Single model monsters? Characters with Terror? When was the last time you played warhammer? Do yoou see Terror causing units to be prevalent in this edition? Would that single dragon commit to charging 40 Spearmen solo for that matter? You are giving ITP credit without considering its disadvantages. If by the bottom of the 6th turn and I am up by a good 200-300 points and the Corsairs got charged a good inches away, instead of being able to flee and secure the win, I risk losing them to what ever unit you envison to be so scary as to need ITP. Situational yes, but so is facing a unit where you really need ITP.

Are you simply arguing by throwing all possible scenarios where you can showcase the use of Corsairs as opposed the actual common gaming occurrence?
How many times will you see gunlines with BS shooting? How many times will you face terror causing troops and fail ld8-10 with or without a BSB? How many times can you use that many attacks against armies that don't do horde formations? How many times do yo think you'd face an opponent who'd let you cast Okkam's Mindrazor on them without a fight?

Now compare that to the number of times you've had Dwellers Bellow on your s3 Corsairs, the amount of S5 stone thrower and mortar hits and frenzy baiting tactics? Compare that to the frequency you had to reform 5 wide and max ranks to keep steadfast or make room because the terrain won't allow your units to move and fit.

Again. I don't know how you gauge competitiveness but in my book it requires consistency. All the situations you have posted are all extreme cases and odd chances of facing X unit. In tournaments, its the players skill that avoids putting your units in such oddball situations where the advantages of the unit in question is not necessary. We are not talking about your local FLGS pick up games. We are talking about tournament competitiveness. If you are saying you are presenting information about a certain unit and its advantages to help players then include their weaknesses as well.

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Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:26 pm
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Quote:
We ate talking com-pe-ti-tiveness


Quote:
When was the last time you played warhammer?


A) Learn to spell. B) Grow up.

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Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:45 pm
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Red... wrote:
Quote:
We ate talking com-pe-ti-tiveness


Quote:
When was the last time you played warhammer?


A) Learn to spell. B) Grow up.


Im just "passing through" but in this case i really cant resist. Are you really that guy? Saying to someone to learn to spell just because you have been proven completely wrong (at least to me because i totaly agree with Ichiyo on this one) and dont have ANY argument to counter that? Perhaps its not Ichiyo who "should" grow up...


Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:20 pm
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I would suggest both sides watch their tone; we are debating, not arguing.

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Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:26 pm
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Phonetically spelling out 'competitiveness' and asking "When was the last time you played warhammer?" is patronising and unpleasant. Labelling that for what it is is my right as a forum poster and I have done so. Personally, I feel that if you are going to patronise someone like that, you can at least have the common courtesy to ensure that you are spelling your unpleasantness accurately.

For the record, I last played Warhammer on Monday. I won, with a massacre. For those who think that posting their score sheet somehow gives them more authority, my list of victories in 8th ed is around 15/0/3.

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Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:05 pm
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I really would prefer if both of you (and everyone else) would drop this particular discussion at this point. Please do not force me to lock this thread. Thank you!

Bye
Thanee


Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:25 pm
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Malekith's Personal Guard

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Please don't lock the thread o.o!

I'm thinking of this at a 'roughhouse' type tourney soon as a variant of original list- a touch tighter with the speed aspect, but losing my CoB (which to me is a crutch, I admit). My version of nastiness is 2 Hydrae tho I prefer one RBT:

8 Harpies
46 Spear Shields Mus, Std of Disc
14 RXB Mus
12 RXB Mus Shields
2 Hydrae
1 COK Chariot
5 Shade EHW, Lt. Arm
20 Wych Elves Mus, Mag Bann: Swiftness
15 BG FC Crim Death, Murder
1 Sorc Lv.2 (Metal) Tome Seal
1 Sup Sorc Lv. 4 (Shadow) Feedback Scroll
1 Dreadlord Hvy. Armour, SDC, Shield, PoK, Crown, Dragon Helm, Relic

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Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:48 am
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