MSU 2400 Hellebron list for my first game ever !

[Lord Drakon]

First of all, thanks for Druchii.net for motivating me so much that I can not stop thinking about druchii tactics which drives me to go to a local store for my first battle ever ! I collect and paint my dark elf army for about 15 years, but never played a game to others than my father and brother who don't really know the rules. Next week wednesday I will test my battle skills in the field. They play most 2400 battle lines, and I even know which armies I have to fight. As a total newbie I could chose which army to fight (Warriors of Chaos, Empire and Bretonnia). I said that I like to start against Bretonnia, then WoC and finnaly Empire.

After reading a lot of battle reports and tactica I came to some conclusions.

- Super frenzied witch elves are crazy in battle
- Executioners became amazing, and frenzied perfect 'can' (knight) openener
- We now only need witches and executioners to provide counter for special combat forces
- Sisters can even neglect horde ranks etc.
- Only real threat to our new army is shooting and when outmanouvred
- Sorceress is less important because of warlocks
- Warlocks are a must have
- Chaff war is more important than ever, if I can win this, I win.
- Especially with new dwarves, cannons and artillery everywhere.

So that's why I chose to go MSU, very shooty, very hard-hitting and very fast
It will give me in most games the possibility to outmanoeuvre my enemy, take out ranged threats fast, and win in combat

Here it is:

Lords
Hellebron 310
General

Able to kill about anything, and provides frenzy for her unit with Witchbrew

Heroes
Master (Lord Drakon) 193
Pegaus, cloak of twilight (3++), full armour, lance

Warmachine hunter, skirmishers, flank/rear charges, redirector

Master 116
Heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, lance, pair of repeater handbows, Dragonhelm, (++2 against flaming + 1 AS), pidgeon plucker pendant (++ 5 against fly units), dark steed

AS of 2, Warmachine hunter, skirmishers, fast cavarly and mage killer

Master 136
Heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, lance, pair of repeater handbows, dark steed, BSB, scarecrow banner (causes fear against fly units

AS save of 2, Warmachine hunter, skirmishers, fast cavarly and mage killer

Sorceress 105
Level 1 shadow, dispell scroll

Miasma and dispell scroll

Core
5 Dark riders 110
Musician, repeater crossbow, shields

Redirectors

5 Dark riders 110
Musician, repeater crossbow, shields

Redirectors

10 darkshards 140
Banner of eternal flame, musician

Extra missile support

10 witch elves 120
Hag

Crazy ASF combat killers

10 witch elves 120
Hag

Crazy ASF combat killers

Special

3 reaper 210

Artillery, high strength missiles

5 shades 90
Extra hand weapon

20 executioners 240

High strength killers


Rare
10 sisters of slaughter 150

Combat unit to deplete rank and experts in combat

5 warlocks 125

5 warlocks 125

Two level 2 units provides magic devastation but also ability to dispel what I really don't want to receive.

What do you think about the list, personally I really like the two dark steed masters who will go crazy, acting as suicide bombers against everything I don't want to shoot or be safe. As I got the idea after the battle report of dark reaper, where he forgot the move his sorceress, these masters will also be able to really kill wizards in enemy units by a suicide charge right? They can charge chariots and knights to stop their charge momentum if needed, as impact hits are the most dangerous things for this list. I think that with 2 shade units, 2 dark riders, 2 warlocks, 4 reapers and 1 darkshard unit I will able to outshoot and outmanoeuvre my enemies, so also a perfect anti dark elf list (I hope) as I know there is somebody who is really fond of witch elves with cauldron in the local store.

My combat forces are 2 witch elves, 1 executioners and 1 sisters of slaughter backed up by hellebron and a death hag so a near total frenzy combat force. If I can win the chaff war and kill warmachines, which is likely to happen, they are and safe for shooting, and redirectors and able to kill about anything when combined.

So again, I will fight against Bretonnia, Empire and WoC, but hoped to create a competative tournament list, so how can I use this force against them in the best way?

[T.D.]

This list is a good start but I have some reservations:

1) Light on bodies -- its a close combat list that can't sustain much in the way of casualties.

2) No Sorceress (dispel scroll is v. handy).

I don't have time to post more at the moment, and I'm sure the other regular posters will give you more detailed advice.

Also: I'm glad you decided to finally dust off your Darkies -- your army is far to awesome to sit at home on a shelf!

[Lord Drakon]

This list is a good start but I have some reservations:

1) Light on bodies -- its a close combat list that can't sustain much in the way of casualties.

2) No Sorceress (dispel scroll is v. handy).

I don't have time to post more at the moment, and I'm sure the other regular posters will give you more detailed advice.

Also: I'm glad you decided to finally dust off your Darkies -- your army is far to awesome to sit at home on a shelf!

1. Agree, so combining the witch elves to 24 would be perfect, but.. then it is no MSU anymore !
2. Can normal characters have a dispell scroll? I understand that magic is low, but I am also able to take those enemy wizards out I hope. I'm yet to unexperienced in battle to rely to much on magic and like to minimalize my risks of miscast etc. So will try for a while if this can work with only two warlock units

Thanks for the compliment !

[Amboadine]

It's a nice list, seems to be missing a BSB however. They really do help.
Might want to check your masters points totals, they don't look right. Peg master should be coming in at 188 and the steed masters 98, unless you have not fully equipped them.

Champion and light armour could be dropped on the shades to find the BSB points.
Also muso's on the Dark riders are almost a must as well.
Only other comment, banner of eternal flame is good on shards, if you can find the points as it will help deal with regen.

Good luck with your first outing.

Edit. No scrolls can only be taken by sorceress

[Calisson]

Too many Masters. Peggymaster could be made BSB, the others are too expensive for what they do, better take one more unit.
One scroll caddy could take an appropriate lore with sig spell, Shadows comes to mind, but Beasts or Heavens could serve well an MSU army too.
That would enhance one unit better than the DH, while being much less vulnerable in melee.

Darkshards need a muso so that they can orient the unit towards the side or rear AND shoot.
Shades need no armour and champion is better with GW than with AHW.

Note: 5 DR full kit with muso would be 110 pts.

[ScottyDo]

I would drop one unit of shades and the light about and bloodshade from the other for one more unit of executioners.

[Lord Drakon]

Ok so I made some changes, sorry Calisson but the dark steeds masters have to stay until they seem useless !

Sorceress level 1, shadow - miasma
One unit of shades for a unit of executioners
Peg master BSB, scarecrow banner (fear in models with fly)
Darkshards got muso and banner of eternal flame
Witch elves are reduced to 10 models
One reaper had to go

As I had 20 points left, I gave all the masters a repeater crossbow and the shades light armour.

A little defence in favour of the dark steed masters, they have weapon skill 6, 3 attacks and 2 wounds, slightly better armoured than a cold one knight with 1+, so in damage output they can often do more than 3 cold one knights, while only slightly more expensive. Further they have much higher speed, vanguard, fast cavarly and can pick off two 2 shots with their crossbows when they can not fight.

[Amboadine]

Good changes to make. Never tried the scarecrow banner myself.
Where are you running the cowboy masters, with the DRiders?

[Lord Drakon]

Good changes to make. Never tried the scarecrow banner myself.
Where are you running the cowboy masters, with the DRiders?

Ah cowboy masters, thats a good name ! They will act like cowboys in the way that they are not going to join any unit but will act as units on their own as I think that suits them best. While they can do as much damage as 3 cold one knights, it is only one master on a horse. Psychology is going to play an important role as enemies will likely have two sections, normal shooting like archers and artillery. Just a master on dark steed will not likely be worth a cannon ball but be targeted with average archer fire (with no effect against the armour save). The enemy have to choose between 6 fast cavalry units, unit of shades and a peg master so a total of 8 units who are a threat to their artillery and soft stuff. So it is very likely that at least one (but likely two) cowboys will reach the warmachines or other fast cavarly / skirmishers before the enemy get to know their impact. I think that with this list it is possible to let the enemy fear the cowboy master as much a peg master (2 for 1). If there are still comments left please say, otherwise I'll keep you updated after my first battle.

Another question, I'm really not that sure if 4 small units of 10 witches and exes will be better in combat than 2 big ones. Are there experienced MSU players who can tell me how can maximize the effect of two small above one big ? Or is it a better idea to forget the MSU and just put them together for more bodies?

[Amboadine]

Sometimes it is better to go with slightly bigger units, to give yourself that extra punch. To make the smaller units work, you will need to get in flank charges and combo charges to give yourself a better chance and disrupt the enemy to knock of the rank bonus and give yourself a better chance of winning the combat. Really depends on how confident you are that you can out manoeuver your opponent, or if you think you are likely to run into large steadfast blocks of infantry.
Consider instead a block of 20 FC execs as an anvil with a couple of flanking witches to hit the flanks. Twenty is still well within the realm of MSU in this day of 40+ horde units.

[ScottyDo]

With those twenty points you had, you could drop the scarecrow banner and give your BSB the mask of EEE! That way, he'd cause terror all the time instead of fear in flying things.

[Calisson]

Ah cowboy masters, thats a good name ! They will act like cowboys in the way that they are not going to join any unit but will act as units on their own as I think that suits them best. While they can do as much damage as 3 cold one knights, it is only one master on a horse.

May I suggest making them real cowboys?
Drop the RXB for a pair of RHB and yell "Hee Haw" when you double move at 18" and shoot four bolts at BS6, usually hitting on 3+ (assuming short range).

[Lord Drakon]

@ Amboadine, ah very good idea. I felt really unsecure without at least one anvil (also to put Hellebron in), but should that be the witches or the executioners. Witches will give most attacks (witchbrew of Hellebron gives them superfrenzy) and lowest cost so are more able to be charged by several units while executioners do their part of flankers better than anvil I guess as more expensive, only 1 high strength attack. Remebber that my first battle will be against Bretonnia, so my anvil unit of infantry is therefore outmaneuvered and likely to be charged. Witches will give most damage before they die and likely to survive the attack so executioners can finish the job. Hellebron in Witches will give those needed high strength attacks + superfrenzy.

@ ScottyDo, I will look if that is possible (masters need to have a pair of RHB)

@ Calisson, wow that will suit them so much better (and be more effective). Modelling wise you really gave me some ideas to create two 'real' cowboys. I really think / hope dat our cowboys will become as known as our peggy masters. Are there already battle reports where they have been used as a pair?

EDIT: oke I changed my mind which is more effective, frenzied executioners with hellebron will ofcourse give 10 str 6 hits + hellebron hits because of their ASF and so kill around 10 knights before they can actually try to hit them.

[Amboadine]

Frenzied executioners do indeed pack more punch, just bear in mind that you will be running multiple frenzied units that might decide to go running off by themselves. Try to ensure you keep them from being baited and disrupting your battle plan.

[Lord Drakon]

Ah cowboy masters, thats a good name ! They will act like cowboys in the way that they are not going to join any unit but will act as units on their own as I think that suits them best. While they can do as much damage as 3 cold one knights, it is only one master on a horse.

May I suggest making them real cowboys?
Drop the RXB for a pair of RHB and yell "Hee Haw" when you double move at 18" and shoot four bolts at BS6, usually hitting on 3+ (assuming short range).

You inspired me haha, both masters now have the pair and the first is modelled in a true cowboy spirit!
Besides that I gave both my masters 2 ward save against flaming attack (bretonnian archers, dwarf artillery + I guess more?) as they were so cheap. Do you think they are worth it, or should I only give one master that save and buy a potion of foolhardiness and charmed shield?

Executioners are now made to one unit of 20. Hellebron will join this unit.

Peg master has no repeater anymore, as he can not march and shoot so will never use it.

Handmaiden of shards had to go to make upgrade from repeater crossbow to pair of repeater handbow possible for cowboys.

Question about the charmed shield, is it used by the first hit like an arrow, or can you choose when to use it. Will it be destroyed after is, or remained as normal shield?

[Dreadlord Veritas]

First up, the charmed shield is obliged to be used against the first hit you take, regardless of what that hit is. Yes, this means that an arrow will take the charge off, if you're unlucky.

Nice model, though have you considered putting the shield the other way up, given that Dark Elf shields are bladed at one end?

[marcopollo]

I put a 5 pt rxb on my peg master. He might not use it much, but it is so cheap. I have used it to take out charmed shields on other models. The BS is very high and at points in the game, your opponent might not be able to be charged but can be shot at by a pegmaster. If I can get two rounds of shooting, that is very cheap for 4 shots.

[Taijushue]

glanced through the responses and didn't see if someone mentioned it or not but the Peg BSB cannot have a magic banner and magic items.

[Fade]

love the model! very fitting

I'm not sure how much you know about Bretonnia already,
but I will share some intel from a few previous encounters with them.

they mostly play a lot knights. 5 wide, 4 ranks deep (maybe more).
that unit has a really nasty charge.
If I remember correctly: all ranks of knights get to attack (combined with +2 strength from lances).
so try to derail this knight-train
redirect or catch it with a really tough unit (I would prefer the first option)
and put your executioners and witches in his (huge) flank.
he can also have archers and some war-machines too, but you have enough to deal with that.
and there is this green-knight who is really hard to kill and has some kind of rebirth.
I'm not sure what his weakness is, but I hope this might prepare you a little

goodluck and havefun!

[Lord Drakon]

Oke now one of the cowboys became the BSB in replacement of the dragonhelm, which gave me 10 points to give the peg masters an repeater crossbow and other cowboy the 1 turn immune to pshychology and devastating charge item.

What about changing my unit of darkshards with eternal flame banner for an third unit of dark riders and a horse for my sorceress ?
Against heavily armoured knights they wont do much damage while another fast cav unit can outmanoeuvre and rear charge his battle line when needed.

Thanks for the feedback, very useful !

[Lord Drakon]

Yesterday the lisr was put to the test against a vampire count army.

Hellebron, executioners, witch elves and sisters of slaughter proved to give very effective combat possibilities. Magic was enough to survive stronger enemy magic and doombolts are very effective ! 4 units of fast cavarly give me great manouevre and reapers able to earn their point cost. Darkshards did their job in deleting chaff. I will use this list again next time. Only regret is that I could not use the cowboy masters yet !