A Tactical Discussion on "The Battle in the Temple"

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Grogsnotpowwabomba
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A Tactical Discussion on "The Battle in the Temple"

Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

In an effort to increase our success on the Lustria front, I wanted to start a general discussion of the Battle at the Temple scenario and how we can successfully defeat the lizards in this engagement. Below is a link to the scenario's rules:

The Battle in the Temple



Druchii Advantages:

First of all, we are the attackers set up after the defenders. This is obviously an advantage as it allows us to project the elements of our army against choice elements of the enemy army. Combined with the fact that we have first turn and can attack from multiple directions, we can quickly isolate vulnerable elements of the enemy army with cavalry and fliers.

We are Stubborn. This is a huge advantage for us, as now we can reliably expect just about any unit in our army to hold the line while our faster elements move in for flank/rear charges. It also means that a Highborn can single handedly tie up entire regiments of enemy troops on a LD10 roll...

Lizard Advantages:

They will not Panic. This is not a huge advantage as the lizards do not have huge problems with Panic to begin with. It will be a boost for Skinks, but that is about all. The lizards will still be susceptible to Fear and Terror, which will be very strong allies for us in this scenario. In addition, they cannot be drawn out of their defensive positions against their will as they can automatically restrain pursuit if they want.

They have Magic Resistance 1 for all units in the Deployment Zone. This will be a problem for Cult of Pleasure and other magic heavy Druchii armies, but not so much an issue for combat oriented armies (like the beast army I think is tailored made for this scenario).

They have a small area to defend and as long as they have an unfleeing unit remaining in their deployment area, they have not been beaten. A Temple Guard unit with a Slann will be very difficult to defeat.

Based on these assessments and assuming a 2000-2500pt game, what type of armylist and tactics would you use to take on a lizard force in this scenario? I will post my own ideas when I have some more time later today.

** Updated to correct information regarding Scouting rules **
Last edited by Grogsnotpowwabomba on Tue Jul 06, 2004 8:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by /\\//\ »

I really want to fight this scenario (shame the UK site doesn't let you report it) but I have some questions. If there is a middle square that is 18" long, then you have to deploy at least 24" from that square that means you deploy your army in 3" of deployment zone on a 6ft long table. How is that possible?

Personally I think a large flying creature such as a Manticore of Dragon would help in this scenario as it can panic scouting Skinks an inflict punishing rear charges on units as the whole lizard army is concentrated in one area.

Black Horror would be a great spell and if using CoS then the spell which makes them move will also be good.
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Post by Dimorti »

We need at least a heavy hitting unit. That BSB slann with temple guard with shields will be hell to get out of that zone. You can flank or hit him in the read he'll still have ld 8-9 cold blooded stubborn rerollable.

Trust me that unit isn't that expensive, 629 point for a 4rth gen with 12 temple guard and command(foprgot the shields though) and without any magic items.

I'd say test out some RBT shots on the slann to see if he has those 2+ ward plaques. If not kill him that way(7 turns is still a lot of time) else charge it with all we have. 2 chariots with nobles with greats weapons should pretty much deplete those temple guard....well about 7-8 of them. Not sure too much how fear works here exactly with that unit 6-8 strengt fear causing slann.

And that's besides all the other stuff. We need to kill saurus quick and fast, and some things to take care of the skinks(a bit of chill wind does good).

As for the beast army I'm not sure, In the quick list I made with that slann I still had 60 skinks and about 700 points left to have fun with...hydra's and manticores are kinda screwed by that many poison shots.

Hydra banner Cok's, frenzied chaos knights, chariots, are all very good things. RBT too.

Not good, well spawns are not even a good idea, warriors to bring ranks, dark riders to chase away fleeing units, rbx are always good against skinks beleive it or not...

Basically we have about 7 turns to break all enemy units, and we need to be able to take a beating. All stubborn is gold as we have chances of being flanked by those annoying skinks.

Still don't know about that big slann unit....
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Post by Iromael »

Lastly, the lizards cannot Scout and thus their Skinks' effectiveness to harass our positions is somewhat reduced.


You are sorely mistaken, GrogsnotPowwabomba.

Let me get the rule for you:

"Deployment
1. The Defender must set up his army first. His Deployment Zone is an 18" square centered on the middle of the table. All of the units must face towards the same table edge. Scout units must be set up with the rest of the army.
2. The Attacker then deploys his army. He may set up anywhere at least 24" away from the Defenders. Scout units may be set up at least 18" from the enemy. Defending Scouts may be setup using the normal Scout rules before the Attacker's Scouts."

Now look again, and try not to miss it this time, eh?

We do not lose our scout ability, rather, we get to choose our spot to scout before you do.
Last edited by Iromael on Tue Jul 06, 2004 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

The big Slann/Temple Guard unit is the only thing I really fear in this scenario. I think the beast army can do well because of the Terror/Fear, and high movement it possesses. It can come from multiple angles and quickly scare/fight off Skink screens, especially the COK and Dragons. Keep in mind that when I say beast army I mean beast/cavalry army (since Druchii do not distinguish).
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Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

Scout units must be set up with the rest of the army.


After reading this I made the assumption that Defending units could not scout. I apologize for the mistake.

Iromael wrote:You are sorely mistaken, GrogsnotPowwabomba.

Iromael wrote:Now look again, and try not to miss it this time, eh?


The above comments were unnecessary at best, and borderline flames at worst. Especially the last one. I am the first to admit a mistake when it is made but you don't need to be an asshole when pointing it out.
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Post by Mtucache »

Bah, he could have meant it in a light-hearted, sarcastic tone... I wouldn't get too upset about it. ;)

My thoughts on the scenario? I think the psych method is probably along the right track, but as Dimorti pointed out, poison can hurt badly.

Going first is definately an up-side in this long of a battle, allowing us to get the flyers in there quick and start anyway we want, but still have time to react towards the end of the battle.

As for the 600+ Slann/TG unit... the same rules apply as always. One HUGE round of CR is the only dependable method (if you can call it dependable). Get a stubborn unit stuck in there, then dance around your three or four other units to get a massive combined charge.... if the ranks/outnumbering/standards don't get 'em, you'll at least have enough wounds to whittle them down in a couple of turns. Of course, maximum potential wounds per base is the ideal unit, giving lots of room for others to join in the fun, so in a standard list chariots are ideal.... otherwise you're looking at your Knights/CoKs/DRs for the high strength charges.

Magic defense is definately the name of the game here, with our offense somewhat hampered (MR). Unlike most enemies, I wouldn't have a problem going up to 7DD+4Scrolls against a Slann.

Really, once you've eliminated the skinks, the rest of the scenario should be simple... you've got the deployment, the speed, the numbers, and can easily counter-act his strongest asset (his magic). It is however important to keep the goal of the scenario in mind and not get too overly-joyed when you've got 75% of his army running.... you've got to deal with all of it.
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Post by Manwe »

Be wary of skinks... especially charging them... My friend deploys them in large units... With poisoned javelins... and believe me getting 48 poisoned atacks thrown at you when you charge them isn't nice!!! ... The Big slann unit is a pain in the ass to...

I suggest using a defensive magic army... lots of scroll caddies... the slann can really mess up you entire army!!
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Post by Iromael »

Point taken Grogsnot. I did not mean any offense.

For my defense, I feel that the bane of Warhammer is its surplus of people who don't follow the rules correctly, with games being won and lost on *forgotten* or *I think it said...* rules.

I hope we all can play this scenario correctly now...
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Post by Cerulaetas »

In a Temple Guard unit, the Slann HAS to go as far back in ranks as it can, correct? And we can come on from any direction? When do we decide what is coming on from what direction, when we deploy? Basically, what I think is that we should get the Slann out of the way 1st thing. It is a Large Target, so another flying Large Target (Dragon or Manticore) will be able to charge over everything else into the Slann, but only from the back. Now, you'd need a regular Khainist list to do this, but with 5 strength 6 attacks and most likely 4 strength 8 attacks (GoP) hitting on 3's, that can cause a lot of damage to the slann turn 1 of combat, even with the 4+ ward save it has. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Slann is only toughness 5? another idea would be Anointed + venom sword on a steed of slaanesh or some such.
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Post by Ayei »

I had played this scenary today and i had done a massacre (I PLAY WITH LIZARDMEN :P), all DE units was dead on about 4 or 5 turn, not panic helps my terradons to get your repeater bolt throwers without the 25% and my salamanders kill all the infantery like devoted of slaanesh, and my hero killed the druchii anointed (well my cold one did the last wound haha)

Good luck ^^
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Post by Dimorti »

And I am sure plenty of druchii will score massacres against the lizard men also.

The one problem I have is that if the lizardmen player plays smart (with scouts) he can pretty much block us off the table.

Just stick scouting skinks all over the place.

As for the slann he is in the middle of the unit. The only way to target him is either kill enough temple guard to clear the back of the unit, or to shoot him to death. You have to go through the temple guard to get to him.

I need to try out this scenerio against our lizardmen player, and get him to not try that 4000 point dino army he has waiting....
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Post by Ayei »

Why you all think that we will use a Slann??????????? i never play with slann... it sux
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Post by Cerulaetas »

We are preparing for WCPS or Worst Case Possible Scenarios, and oftentimes the Slann has a much greater potential to do damage than does an Oldblood.
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Post by Ranieth »

Ermm... Where do you find this scenario? :oops:
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Post by Nekroskop »

I waste him with my boltthrower!
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Post by Lord Veshnakar »

This is one of those scenarios where the good old cold one knights w/BSB carrying the hydra banner was of great use, I played this scenario the other day and he had a regiment of 12 temple guard with slann, and I killed all the temple guard in the unit and I accually broke the slann. But it can be an exceptionally tough fight otherwise and being faced with a good amount of magic you cant rely on one regiment alone.
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Post by Tacklbry »

I just played the scenario twice. Once with the Dark elves as the attakcers, It was a narrow Victory. Once with the Dark Elves defending the temple. It was also a narrow victory (I think I was lucky this time). We decided to keep the same special rules for the armies. But it made for a couple of interesting games. The fluff of a counter attack to retake a captured temple made it seem more in line with a campaign as well.

Has anybody else played the scenario with the roles reversed?
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Post by Anthrax »

the main problem with this that I can see is that our chariots will be stubborn, and not use general leadership for stupidity tests, which makes them much much more likely to be stupid.

Which is annoying really, because I would prefer to have a noble in my warriors and make them much tougher, but it looks like i'll need to have him on a chariot
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Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

anthrax wrote:the main problem with this that I can see is that our chariots will be stubborn, and not use general leadership for stupidity tests, which makes them much much more likely to be stupid.


They can still use the General's LD for tests, they just will not benefit from the Stubborn rule when they do so (which only really matters in Break Tests anyway)
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Post by Rasputinii »

I don't have time to reply fully at the mo, but I can offer a easy way to deal with the slann problem. An annointed with the bindings and a great weapon. With him being stubborn he can charge in alone in turn 2 and go for the slann. After a few turns he will be dead and the TG won't be stubborn :D Then you can throw a few units in from all sides and break him :D - simple :D

Also a couple of sorceresses with shadow magic can deal with the problem of magic resistance.

I will chime back in tomorrow with some more genious ideas :D
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Post by Drakken »

@Rasputin, I don't belive that Bindings will work on the Slann. This has come up before as an option, and my understand (which could be wrong...) is that because the Slaan isn't eligable to accept Challenges he can't be pulled out by Bindings (its similar to trying to Challenge a Musician).

@Topic...I personnaly hate these kind of scenarios, the All or Nothing type of deal. I always have hated them. Especially against an army like Lizzies where you have so many skirmishers to sneak back in on the bottom of turn 7. If forced to play it, this would be a more apporiate time for big uber units, supported by lots of missile fire (remove skinks). Being Immune to Panic removes a good way of dealing with Skinks, which are the keys to victory or defeat. Remove the Skinks w/ Shooting and Magic, and the rest should fall into place easy, as they lose all mobility (since they can't afford to leave the DZ too much).
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Post by Nekroskop »

@Drakken - I am quite sure it works, as the Bindings let you even challenge Skaven Cahracters in the Rear Rank and similar. things. Therefore you can pull out the Slann.
Btw, even a Noble On DP with Great Weapon would suffice to keep the Slann occupied - he is stubborn at 9 as well.

Granted, he takes much longer to kill the Frog, but meanwhile your Anointed is free to kill the rest of the troops.
Also, getting the Slann into CC robs him of some of his spellcasting abilities (well, not much, since Slann rarely use MM's).

I think the Scenario is a little strange myself. All units getting stubborn is kinda hard. They should have given them all hatred, much more fitting for Druchii and not so overpowered.
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Post by Rasputinii »

Drakken the description of the bindings clears allows you to force a challange upon any character in the unit reguardless of its place. This is the point of the item.

Nekroskop, A noble can't take the bindings so that wouldn't work, although you could do it with an Aspiring champ - but the annointed might actually kill the thing in the confines of the game and if its a second generation slaan then you have just won the game.
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Post by Nekroskop »

Could you explain me why a noble can't take the item? It is clearly stated in the list that Characters with the Mark of Slaanesh may take Slaanesh-specific magic items from Hordes of Chaos. Sounds obvious to me.
I did that on a noble for mage hunign, and it works wonders.
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