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The High Sorceress on Manticore -- Flexibility Defined. 
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Manipulator of the Masses
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Tso, thats the point we've been discussing. Is it worth the points to add some combat effectiveness to a character whos vastly combat is vastly added to by her mount? With the Hydra blade, she generates an average of 3 S3 Attacks, doing doing an average of .75 Ws (which can be added to the Manticores 2.1), which is a vast improvement. An you also have a possibility of far more damage, meaning that you have basically given the whole model the ability to hide in combat vs. most units that will catch it.

And Iron_Panther, you do still have the rest of your army to hurt that lord, inculding (Hopefully, that is a good excuse to go that way) enough Magic, to kill that same unit. Possibly quite easy.

Wow, my spelling was absolutely horrible there. :oops:

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Last edited by Drakken on Mon Dec 15, 2003 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:20 am
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Good post Drakken.

In further response to Iron Panther, there are many ways to flee that nasty lord without necessarily choosing 'flee' as a charge reaction... And most of them still keep your HS in the game, tossing nasty magic around, possibly setting up a flank/rear charge with her on a unit. He's only got a 90 degree LOS, after all...

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Mon Dec 15, 2003 3:18 pm
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In responce to Tso, you can avoid a big flyer if you want to, it depends on what you present to your opponent. Example I played a Chaos Lord complete with Dragon, I sent my noble Black Guard forward and left them in nice Los of the Dragon, complete with Sorceress on Manticore behind. He thought nice over-run into Sorceress and 800 VP's as well. He charged. magic and shooting phase passed with nothing happening. Finally came his Close Combat round which he was looking forward to, he picked up his 6 dice for his Lord. I then threw out a challenge from my brave (but very stupid champion) :twisted: He mercilessly butchered him, but I am still testing on a 9 as I have 11 guys watching their "Champion" I pass my terror test and break test and then have a duel flank charge with Executioners and Cold One Knights. Good dice rolls and then dead Chaos Lord due to Killing Blow. It's about playing smart, she is worth alot of points but you have to think what she is good for, against the hordes if she gets Soul Stealer I would say that you would be very unlucky for her to lose 6 wounds during the game. I think she is worth the "risk" and she will become a man-stay of my army after Christmas when I get the manticore model and then think how to model the sorceress herself. I just did a nice job on my foot model replacing the staff with a Corsair's hand weapon. Just wondering on what model to use, will see what the Mounted Damsel looks like for the Brets First


Mon Dec 15, 2003 4:06 pm
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Thats about my statement right now Flit, how to model her....

I've now played 3 Games with it, and love the idea. I'm still playing around with configuration, and am about ready to try a Hydra bladed list I've been playing with (man did I have to finagle points for that one), and figure to post my complete thoughts on the idea in a few weeks when I finish my test period of 5-6 games.

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Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:02 pm
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I'll start a thread on the Modelling forum as to how to model her.

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Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:04 pm
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Okay, as I said I would, I'll outline some of what I learned playing around about 7 games with various versions of this concept:

1. Hydra Blade is an incredible boost vs. most armies. It fought off Marauder Horseman, Furies, a Giant Eagle, Pistoliers, and a few other odds and ends without any support, in additional to adding hordes of CR to combined Flank attacks.
2. Avoiding Enemy Monster Mounted Characters is easier than you first think. Being Monster mounts themselves, they have a nice restricted charge arc, and after flying out of yours, you simply turn to face where needed. There were a few bad moments (Chaos Slaaneshi Spawn nocking 4 Wounds off :( ), but on the whole, she avoids a lot of stuff. THERE is one big exception to this: Avoid Lizardman armies if possible, the only times I lost her were to skinks both times. I'll have to really work on a way to screen her from Skinks more, thats just soo many shots.
3. Bring Power Die generators, you need a decent magic phase to make her really scary. My final version will probably be her and 2 Level 2s, with a BSB as support for the infantry support.
4. Dark Magic is the only way to go. Without Dominion and WoP and Soul-Stealer, she is sooo in trouble.
5. Empire Gun Lines were as scary as I feared, as between Magic and Terrain, its not that hard to shut down quite a bit of it, leaving the enemy with major desicions about targets.
6. I'm still really leery of leaving her as my General, but can't afford to fix point for a Noble as General without going to 3000. I think I managed to use her LD for Chariots maybe 10 times through all the games. I can usually arrange it for Combat Break tests, but thats about it.

I think that covers the major points, I'll try to write a more coordinated write-up eventually, hopefully. In total honesty though, I really like this idea, and plan to use it for a while to come.

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Thu Dec 18, 2003 4:40 am
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Drakken> Good post. I'm curious, though, what else is in your army? Can your BSB be dropped for a Noble to act as the general?

I heartily agree with you, she makes her money w/ Dark magic.

Otherwise, keep up the good work, and although my gaming is mostly curtailed for the next couple weeks, I'll post any further results also.

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Thu Dec 18, 2003 12:25 pm
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Okay, lets see, rest of Army:

2* DR, 5
Warriors 16, RBX
2* Crossbowman 10,
Executioners 11
Corsairs 11
Black Guard 10
Harpies 6
Shades 6
Chariot
Characters inculded 2 Level 2 with Seal, Darkstar, and Scroll, and my BSB, in the Chariot, centrally located.

I tended to use the HD supported by DR, Harpies, and Shades, and usually start CC on turn 3-4, with my Infantry doing the work. Its a variation on my Standard MSU Hybrid list. Though I'm consider dropping one of the Units for more DR.

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Thu Dec 18, 2003 4:59 pm
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Interesting. I can sorta see why you want to keep the BSB...

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Thu Dec 18, 2003 5:21 pm
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The two of you should consider getting together and writing an article about her for the TOK.

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Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:51 pm
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Honestly I would like to move to more Cav, but I can't stand CoK, which means it would simply be an abudance of DR running around. I have been consider replacing the Corsairs, 1 Crossbowman, and the Executioners with 2 more DR and increasing the current to 6. That may stay around as I think it might be a little more successful, just a lot more fragile, and will have to wait till I acquire more DR (damn single blister!!!).

And I think we probably have the article written across this thread :D . It wouldn't take too much effort to combine it into a more coheinrant (and remove some of the comlaining) piece.

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Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:31 am
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Well, guys. I've done the final battle for the Manticore with HS, against the empire. I lost by a Solid Victory, but I've found that she is more than useful with the hydra blade averaging 3 attacks, same as a Noble but with 1 less S, she can swing the combat in her favour. And more importantly she has never died in the 4 battles she has fought against Tomb Kings, High Elves, Skaven and Empire which I think is very good going. She will now form the basis of my MSE army and I just have to build around her and the abilities she brings to the table. Thanks very much for an interesting thread guys and hopefully it has inspired a few other people to try out this combo


Sat Dec 20, 2003 12:38 pm
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ive played my first game with this idea in mind, against dwarves though :(.
came out in a minor victory to me, with the sorceress surviving, but not the manticore (which didnt do too much, as dwarves have a silly ld 9 and stone throwers :x )
there will be an ongoing commentary of the list in the army lists forum, though seeing as its xmas, i doubt many games will be played at the moment

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Tue Dec 23, 2003 11:40 pm
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Has anyone thought of using Web of Shadows on the High Sorc. The fact that all the attacks hit the same target doesn't really bother me because of the increased attacks. The Hydra blade with 2-4 attacks does look like it could make some damage and in some cases could be better than the WoS. But with 2-12 S3 attacks on one model, you are almost certain to kill it. Secondly if your opponent challanges you, you'd have a better chance of killing him. And at half the Hydra Blade's cost you can take that extra dispel scroll. That's my little contribution :)

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Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:11 am
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Web of Shadows is a one use only item though, lessening the effectiveness of fighting off Fast Cav or Skirmishers or Flyers. Thats what the Hydra Blade is there for, I personnaly never charged into anything big and scary enough to have to challenge, so the Web would have been wasted. In general, she's only in combat with the 3 types of enemies I mention (when I use it anyway), so the Hydra blade was the better investment (thanks to whichever one of you guys posted that idea by the way).

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Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:35 pm
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I'm a total, n00b! Heck, i dont even have my army assembled yet! But my 8-9k points will be ready soon enough :) :)

Anyways, I don't see why people are arguing so much about wether or not to take it... Ask your opponent or friend, to use a proxy, most people really do not care if you use one in a friendly game. TRY IT OUT FOR YOURSELVES!????!!?

I'm going to give it a shot, hell why not, if it doesn't work, then back to the drawing board, if it does... then THANKS!

Ok ok, i'm not a TOTAL nub when it comes to warhammer, i do have a large DE 40k army, so i do know how to fight on the table top, and yes, i know fantasy is much differant and blah blah blah. ok, i know.

But seriously, just TRY it, give it a try, and report your outcomes.

Honestly, with the way i play my DE 40k, I would love to field this unit on the board, seems so much more versitile than the HB on a manticore.
Sure, he can deal out the wounds, but can ONLY do it while in close combat, unless you equip him otherwise...

The point of this unit is VERSATILITY, its like... a Talos-Ravenger Hybrid ... mmm.... Talos.... ravenger.....

If its NOT in close combat, then she's casting spells! (BEING USEFUL!)
If she is in close combat, or close to troops, then she's causing terror, making checks, being just a big bad scary biatch that they want to run away from, AND she's casting MORE spells!

So its point heavy.... but not ALL armies have those uber cannons and jezzail teams to smack her ass down.

So once again i stress, try it before you knock it.

Posted by a nub :)

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Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:54 pm
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