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Field Problems: The solution to cheese and whine 
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Cold One Knight

Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2003 7:55 pm
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I think MT probably wanted more of a whole approach to the game ie grand tactics against various opponents, rather than generalised local tactics.

First of all I think we need to define what constitutes a balanced all-round (tournament?) army, so we know what we are considering. The army I have used at GTs has 4 DR, 2 COK, COC, 3RBT, HB with GOP, Noble on DS and L2Sorc on DS. Now I know I have sound tactics for defeating the likes of Empire, Brets, Dwarves and Chaos but I have rather more severe problems dealing with other armies in particular WE and VC. Now my list is by no means balanced as its all cavalry.

Here is a suggested 2000 balanced army:
HB on CO with GOP
BM on Mant
L2 Sorc DSCloak, Scroll on DS
16 -20 Spear
2 x 10 -13 Rxb
2x 5 DR mus (one unit with rxb)
5 - 8 COK
1 or 2 COC
10 -12 Exec
5 -9 Harpies or 5 -7 Shades
2 RBTs

Agree, disagree or modify. We should take the project forward once we have settled on a model of what you might usually have to play with.
This might get interesting.
Cheers.


Tue Mar 09, 2004 8:47 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Well, several problem I see with this actually... no witches, no Cauldron, some people don't like Cold Ones, no Assassin, some people prefer way more magic, etc, etc, etc.

I don't think that coming up with a forced "balanced" list could be the solution here, as it won't apply to most players. Personally, yeah, I'd field that list (or something like it), but peoples' opinions vary greatly on this website, and many wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.

Basically, the only restrictions that you can reasonably make on a "balanced" list are:
3-4 Characters (at least one magic user)
2+ Core units (duh...)
2-3 Elite units (duh...)
1 Marchblocking/Flying/Scouting unit

All of the choices in our army list are good ones now, so an army made up of:
8 levels of magic,
an Assassin,
2 units of corsairs,
2 units of DRs,
2 large units of Witches,
some Shades,
the CoB,
and a Hydra
is just as "balanced" and feasable as your recommended army, and it doesn't look anything like it.

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Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:09 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Yeah, my point was actually to take some of the focus off the list and how to change it, and more focus at the point of planning the battle. So, you're stuck with what you have (whatever it is, good, bad, or otherwise) and you still want to try and win. The idea was that I'd like more focus put into the problem solving on the field, and less into the pregame list jinking. We all have lists that we like. Those lists are going to be better against some opponents than others. So, instead of fiddling with the list, let's see what we can do to improve our lot against those enemies that give us trouble. That's the idea, in a nutshell.

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Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:43 pm
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Dark Rider
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I know the sentiments are familiar ground to one and all, I don't mind facing whatever army my opponents want to use - regardless of the smell of curdled dairy products emanating from them! I just believe the joy of giving your opponent a sound thrashing using a stock standard "boring" army (which is adhering to the "fluff" in the literature) one of the best feelings in the world...and after all doesn't it state in the beginning of the DE army book "...It is the great tacticians who excel with the Dark Elves." - and boy is this true enough! I still get cold sweats when I see the "massive" units with blocks of cheddar cheese nailed to their shields and other sundry whiffiness! Imagine your pleasure and vindication when you take them apart with your units used in perfect timing and co-ordination ( yeah, I know, it doesn't happen like that all the time, but when it does, you can dine on it for ages! ). But I digress...it's all about the fun! If your army is themed and you keep a battle history for them, the encounters you have will be part of their ongoing development for eventual domination over the other armies! And you will also win the respect, envy and favour of your peers who may suddenly see the light and get into the spirit of the game with you - I can speak from experience ( as a hoary old one ) that this is what gives part of the pleasure of wargaming. Changing the attitudes of others through the exemplar you portray, I don't strive to win at all cost, but to try and create a more memorable gaming experience for one and all. Thorny problems are dealt with a simple D6 roll! A handshake and a compliment about the other opponent's army is essential! But above all, there is always another battle, another opponent, another unit to add which can serve the Witch King better... :D

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Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:03 pm
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Noble

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But the Eastern Bloc was cheesy!

:P

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Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:53 pm
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Highborn
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I have the same problem with this post as with other posts, and I know I'm probably nagging, but the lack of information here is kind of... annoying. I have no problems with people saying "great idea" then adding to the idea, but if people just pop in to say "great idea" it takes up space and gets really annoying.

Ok, now, there's some people who would say it's not possible to deal with cheezy armies, but to me that's the whole fun of the game.

Let's say someone deploys a nuln army and they've got 8 great cannons, 2 mortars, and 2 hellblasters. Extreme cheese, right? Well, yes, but none of it can stand and shoot, and none of it can move and fire. Also, the rest of his army list is going to be wimpy! (I've messed around with AB doing an army list like this, they'll only be able to take an elector count and 10 units of 10 free company...) so if you rush the free company, the free company will break, and panic can completely ruin him.

If you're playing a tzeentch player, sure he's going to be getting a lot of spells off, but take a look at the ranges of those spells. If he puts his lord on a disc of tzeentch to allow him to cast on more stuff easier, he's an easy target against shooting and your own spells.

Besides, you typically won't find people who love the game (which are more likely to be the experienced players) cheesing out their army lists, it'll most likely be the new people who are just looking for a win, and they won't understand their armies so well, which means tactics will most likely be lost on them.

If you disagree with me, I'd be happy to debate with you. I haven't had much experience around cheesy people, so those of you who have had some experience, post your army list and their army list, and let's see what we can figure out.

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Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:54 am
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Noble

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I never heard of anyoen calling dark elves cheese..perhaps we are lucky that this is the case. But my friend called my dark elf cheese when i won a batter with him without even losing more than half the regiment.SO no points gained for him :).

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Tue Mar 16, 2004 4:05 am
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Cold One Knight
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Well, this is potentially a good idea, but I wonder what real use it will have in the long run. It's impossible to simulate every possible situation you're going to be faced with and extremely hard to remember the 'solution' to potential battlefield problems.
As someone who spent 20 years in the military, I never thought of "Field Problems" as a solution to every situation I was faced with in actual conflicts. That is what doctrine and force structure is for. In other words, if you have a strong grasp of tactics and can shape the battlefield to your advantage, then you should be able to succeed most of the time. If your men are well-trained and led by competent leaders, that is.
I think that this forum does a pretty good job on force structure (Army Lists) and tactics already. What it is weak on is shaping the battlefield (i.e. 'what terrain do I place where, based on my force, to give me the greatest advantage) and on After-Action Reports (Battle Reports?..whatever they're called), which tend to be really generalized and a waste of time to read.
If the idea here is to write detailed AARs, then I'm all for it, but maybe we should just insist on detailed reports of battles fought instead of the "then I slaughtered his army" type of blather we generally get. No offense to those of you who actually do this already.
Oh, and by the way, the Brits never, ever had 3 Full-strength Divisions in British I Corps during the 70s and 80s! We only had 4 Divisions and 2 ACRs in V and VII Corps combined. !lol!
As far as cheesy, you fight with what ya brung! A cheese knife and some crackers always helps!
//quinn

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Sun Mar 21, 2004 6:05 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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quinn> Good points. To be clear, though, I never planned for these to become a 'textbook answer' to any and all problems. The point was to start getting folks to think through the problem, rather than to just get hung up on 'oh, that's cheese' or 'well, it's statistically superior to bring this magic item vs. that one'. The terrain placement, I agree has been a topic lacking around here, maybe you could start us off on that one?

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Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:51 am
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Cold One Knight
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Quote:
The terrain placement, I agree has been a topic lacking around here, maybe you could start us off on that one?

To quote someone.."If I could, I would." I am going to have to defer on this one to someone or ones who have more experience with this than I. It's something I would really like to be schooled on personally. I think it is a critical skill and one that should be relatively easy to master once you know the basics. Hopefully, someone here will do this for us.
Quote:
The point was to start getting folks to think through the problem, rather than to just get hung up on 'oh, that's cheese' or 'well, it's statistically superior to bring this magic item vs. that one'.

Point taken and understood. My main point was that the tools to do this already exist if people would use them correctly. I personally have always felt that if it's legal, then you can use it anyway you want to. There are no 'cheese' armies, just unique problems to be solved and hopefully overcome. That's the beauty of this game, so many different possibilities and styles available to play.
Anyway, this is a good idea and I'll keep watching this board and putting my 2 cents worth in as I can. Thanks for getting it started.
//quinn

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Sun Mar 21, 2004 7:36 pm
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Dark Rider
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Ahhh, terrain placement ... almost another fantasy army in itself! Often a lot of times I would encounter people who would always set up land in the belief that they would be the sole recipient of their particular placement. More often then not, you could see their thoughts as "Now with this hill in the middle I can place my archers/war machine/cheese stack right here!" and then they lose the die roll for choosing which side of the table to deploy on... I don't know about others but I like to place terrain so that there is always some benefit to either side depending on where they wish to deploy - it makes it more fun and challenging when you have to play on a battlefield which isn't optimise for one side only! Always remember how you army is structured and how you can utilise terrain to alleviate weaknesses in your force. e.g. If your army has few fast moving units then you may want to use a solid building or wood to anchor a flank ( the hinge ) and have what mobile elements on the outside to hit the enemies flank ( I find using a core unit with RBTs or RCBs then going out to premier strike units like WEs/COKs with magic support in the middle quite effective ) - I think this tactic was used at Gaugamela where Alexander the Great marched obliquely to Darius's forces, in essence refusing one flank whilst hitting in force on the other. All the time, terrain can be used to shield your units as they move into position and reduce the effects of enemy shooting ( in fact, terrain used properly counts as an unbreakable unit which benefits the general who uses them as part of their battle plan ). Often terrain centres around a few forests, a building or two and anything you can drag out of your terrain bitz box - depending on how you decide terrain placement is often a battle in itself... do you get 1 player to set up and the other player gets to choose their side 1st? Roll die and use the tables in the rulebook? If playing other gamers, it might be worthwhile to quiz them about their style of terrain set-up, you may be suprised! Also, before rolling the die to decide who starts, it is essential to discuss the effects of terrain with your opponent, does this patch of brown count as difficult terrain? Does that hedge count as a fortified position in regards to the benefits/disadvantages of a defended position? Does that low mound of saved toenail clippings count as blocking LOS? Is that pencil a valid terrain feature? Make sure you and your opponent are clear about any terrain points and effects it has - it will be crucial when tempers get heated and the result rests on the interpretation of whether that goblin fanatic is killed by the fact that a left over potato chip counts as a solid terrain feature...hmm sounds like I'm rambling a bit, but I had to say something about terrain situations I've come across, as this discussion picks up I'll add less discombobulated contributions!!!! ;)

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The death wail of our hated kin is music to my ears, the strife and misery we inflict is our purpose of. All hail Malekith!


Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:48 am
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Malekith's Personal Guard
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@gijoe That is very interesting and all, but this isn't the thread for it. This thread is to establish the formula for making Field Problems. Start a new thread if you want to talk about something else.

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Mon Mar 22, 2004 5:27 am
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Dark Rider
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my bads! :oops:

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The death wail of our hated kin is music to my ears, the strife and misery we inflict is our purpose of. All hail Malekith!


Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:54 pm
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Cold One Knight
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I am glad I saw this post. It reminds me of what an orc and Goblin player told me. Any army can beat any other army. And wehn u think about it, its true. As long as you have a plan you can win, you just gotta think about it.

I have been mulling over for a few weeks now what new unit for my Druchii should I get. Now I realized and decided I should get what I want to paint, not what I think I need. Instead of mulling over that, I should mull over what I need to do with the units I have.

Plus, I gotta figure out what to do about my &%$# dice rolls. That is what usually kills me!

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Wed Mar 24, 2004 8:01 pm
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Cold One Knight
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...um...SOo, lets get this party started! :D We should run through a few scenarios instead of just talking about running through a few scenarios. So, maybe you can help me.
Ill post my list, and some nice person out there can post the "cheasiest" list they can think of for, say: TK, and gives us the mission objective. Then we can run through the scenario.
My List:

CHARACTERS:

BEASTMASTER 237 pts.
Manticore
Lance
Light Armour
Sea Dragon Cloak
Seal of Ghrond

SORCERESS_lv. 2 192 pts.
Dark Steed
2 dispell scrolls

ASSASSIN 179 pts.
Additional hand weapon
Manbane
Rune of Khaine
__________________________________________________________________

CORE:

10 Wariors 145 pts.
RxB’s
Shields
Musician
S.B.
Lordling

11 Warriors 157 pts.
RxB’s
Shields
Musician
S.B.
Lordling

10 Corsairs 125 pts.
Musician
S.B.
Reaver

10 Corsairs 125 pts.
Musician
S.B.
Reaver

5 Dark Riders 141 pts.
RxB’s
Musician
Herald

5 Dark Riders 127 pts.
RxB’s
Musician
__________________________________________________________________

SPECIAL:

9 Harpies 117 pts.

6 Cold One Knights 255 pts.
Dread Knight
Standard Bearer
Banner of Murder
__________________________________________________________________
RARE:

2 Reaper Bolt Throwers 200 pts.


Total: 2000 pts.
Dispell Dice: 4
Power Dice: 4

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Thu Apr 15, 2004 12:11 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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@DEHighborn> Party's been started. :) The actual field problems are listed in the Tactics section as "Field Problem: X vs Y". If you want to write one, start a thread that includes the DE forces, the enemy forces, what terrain looks like, and what scenario rules are going on. Generally, you list as 'given' anything that happens prior to deployment of the army, and the field problem kicks off with folks posting how they'd deploy and what their plans are for how to go to battle.

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Thu Apr 15, 2004 12:21 pm
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Adept of Khaine
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I think that's a good outlook on the game... I look forward to the article. :)

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Sat May 01, 2004 9:33 am
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Shade

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So when will someone get on topic and actually post something instead of discussing what youve said and modern armies and so on? :)

Im more than happy to give advice on tactics and so on, i wont ask for advice however since i dont think theres any army i cant defeat :P

Sometimes you choose the wrong option, sometimes you roll bad, but on average atleast i win and have fun always so.. win win situation for me:)


Tue May 11, 2004 6:05 am
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Jinxed> People have been. The actual field problems are topics of their own in the Tactics forum, and they hit specific situations. e.g. Field Problem: DE AoIM vs. Skaven SAD. None are on the first page right now, but feel free to post one if you have an idea. Just look at some that have been posted first.

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Tue May 11, 2004 8:15 am
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Dark Rider

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Just wondering if it wouldn't be a good idea to have sub sections in the tactics forum so these articles could be stickies. I know it would be a little bit hectic, but at least one for each of those "cheesy" armies would be nice.

I've never seen any of these articles go by and I would've loved to see them...ah well!

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Tue May 11, 2004 8:44 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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I think you can still run a search to find some... As for the subsection, I'm all for it, but it'd be up to the mods (pm one and ask)

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Tue May 11, 2004 9:40 am
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Shade

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Ah ok hehe, im kinda new here. Ill search for them then, and yeah a subsection would be good.


Tue May 11, 2004 4:39 pm
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