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RBT Damage Calculator (summary) 
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Malekith's Personal Guard
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I love too see someone actually take the time to prove their point with statistics. So much better than the usual "I don't take RBT's because I don't like them" posts. Good job Zhou Tai :D . But I'll still take my two RBT's to take care of Giants, Carnosaurs, and Dragons that I might not be able to slay by other means with certain lists.

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Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:35 pm
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Slave (off the Altar)
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I love the statistical work and it really is a good analysis of the RBT, but in all these posts I've only seen one which also takes into account the psychological effect these things can have on an opponent. Against the less experienced players they can be a great help in controlling the movement phase and how much points is that worth?
But I must agree, after seeing the figures, that against more experienced players an extra unit of extremely vicious elves will probably do more good than two RBT's :twisted:

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Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:30 pm
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Very impressive and insightful, I thnk it demolishes the myth that 4 RBTs are a cheesy and sure way to win every game.

Taking 4 RBTs will not secure you a victory. But I've never seen anyone build a bouse with just a screw driver, it takes the right tool for the right job.

If we created a stat sheet for how many kills a unit of DRs would likely get on the charge against various units, I doubt that they would get their points back either. But they are one of our most prized units, and rarely does an army go to war without them.

I don't think we can rate units simply on their effectiveness of how many kills they get a turn on average. It has to take into account the psychological elements, movement restrictions, flank protection etc.

I play against a lot of chaos, and they always take Daemon Princes and Exalted daemons etc. My 2 RBTs easily make their points back in a single turn. If one kills two chosen knights, thats already 90pts... and thats without a mark. So it's realtive to who you're facing.

In my humble experience their points are about right for what they are worth.

My point is that they (like every other DE unit) are a specialist unit, performing a specific (or possibly several) very distinct roles in an overall strategy. Don't take em if you don't need em. But no-one can say that they are COMPLETELY useless. I find them useful, stats or no stats.


Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:19 am
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In response, I would only posit that unlike nearly all other elements of a Dark Elf force, an RBT necessarily restricts a comparatively sizeable portion (at least 5% in a GT-sized force) of your army to a strictly immobile fire support role.

Never mind the relative effectiveness of RBT shooting as per my calculations above - or the proliferation of counter-battery units in GT-format armies, or the possibility of an adverse terrain setup, or even the potential presence of screening units in the enemy ranks.

The fundamental flaw of the RBT in a Dark Elf army is, in my opinion, its static nature coupled with its points cost. Given the relative fragility of Dark Elf forces, and their subsequently greater dependence on superior mobility, surely the RBT - even when taken in numbers - is by far not the most optimal use of points and Rare slots.

To put this another way, Dark Elves will never dominate the Shooting Phase - unless Warhammer shooting in general is vastly improved - but they can achieve dominance in the Movement Phase. This is where comparing RBTs to Dark Riders becomes flawed; the fundamental purpose of Dark Riders is not that of achieving actual kills, but rather of gaining a maneuver advantage. Any casualties they inflict are secondary, although welcome nonetheless; setting up flank attacks and drawing out enemy chargers ought be their primary responsibility. An RBT, however, does not have that option; it must inflict kills along a fairly narrow fire lane, or, in the case of relatively inexperienced opponents, threaten to do so.

The conclusion - _conceptually_ I personally would not see RBTs, singly or in multiples, as optimal selections for either High or Dark Elf armies (the early version of Lothern Sea Guard excepted). The statistical charts that form the basis for this thread merely support this determination in stipulating that over a large number of trials, a typical RBT will likely not earn back its points against a majority of opponents over the space of a single 6-turn game.

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Fri Jun 18, 2004 1:33 pm
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Dark Rider

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In reply to your response...

I understand where you're coming from and have to agree to disagree. Elves are not just about speed, they're about out witting and manuourving. Speed or mobility will get you so far, but eventually you have to get stuck in and poke someones eye out. My argument on the camparison between DR and RBT is perfectly justified, they may not perform the same role in each of the phases, but perform a valuable role none the less.

Im not going to go into the countless number of tactics one is able to employ with DR. Perhaps the issue lies not in the lack of functionality of the RBT, but the range of tactics that you have encompassed it within eg: if you use an all cavalry army list then I agree, a RBT is not worth it: for that playing style. I've used 3 RBTs to destroy a steam tank in turn 2, they may not have received all their points back but they crushed the empire player's strategy at that piont and still had a part to play.

Not only that, but because they are worth a lot of points, if you position/use them correctly, they won't be taken out, therefore denying your opponent those valuable points. I've only ever lost a RBT once, and that was when a 300pt Daemon Prince charged it, subsequently though the other two RBTs killed him. My opponent in the end lost 75pts of Maurader horsemen, 90pts of furies and a 300pt DP trying to kill my statsically pathetic RBTs.

They become a focal point by which you can anticipate your opponent's moves...

All DE units rely on support to win and a RBT is just another one of those support units, that probably only works in conjunction with certain unit types (such as RXB elves).

My question to you is: what is "optimal", optimal in what context? My opinion remains the same, the RBTs provides the DE list with added diversity and flexibility and the effectiveness of the RBT is always relative to which opponent you are facing (same goes with any unit in the WH world).


Sat Jun 19, 2004 2:47 am
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Warrior
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While this is very usefull info, I'm starting to get VERY tired of people measuring the usefullness of units based on average performance. What really matters IS NOT average performance (number of kills) but rather the distribution of the different outcomes. What would be really usefull is calculations showing the chance of scoring 0 kills, 1 kill, 2 kills etc. I made these calculations some time ago, but lost all of the work in a hard disk failure. It takes a lot of combinatorics work to make the statistics, which is why these numbers rarely show up on these boards.


Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:55 pm
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Draenor, I have a question for you before I start my reply: Do you play mostly friendly/fun gaming, or are you a regular Tournament Player? Reason I ask relates to my answer below.

Okay, Zhou Tai (by the way, I really like your work on this site so far) summed up the biggest reason why I'm against RBTs: Immobility. When you suddenly commit 300 pts to Stationary objects, and another 120 pts to a unit to defend them, you've commited 21% of your Army ina defensive nature. Dark Elves don't have the Armor/Toughness/Units to play normally in a defensive nature (No enough Armor Pen, and Can't win shooting duels), to say nothing of the fact this plays away from one of there strengths: mobility. When you tie up 1/5 of Your army in units that don't take advantage of your biggest strength, you've just hamstrung yourself before you start. This isn't even taking into account Quality and Compentent Headhunting, from Units of Flyers, Monsters, Enemy Fast Cav, Shooting/Magic, and the like, which all take a tole of RBTs as they are incredible Fragile (2 T3 6+ Save Crew). You talk about your enemy focusing on them, but thats something of a open-ended debate. I don't have to focus all my attention to kill them, simply the units designed to kill them, which requires you bring a group of troops designed to kill those, at which point you've spent a large portion of your points reacting, instead of taking the initiative. Reacting never wins Wars, mearly skimirshes. Basically, I can see 1 RBT, but when you start dropping 300-700 pts on the Defense, you've just removed Flexibility and your advantages.

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Sun Jun 20, 2004 7:13 pm
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Dark Rider

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My point seems to be misunderstood. I base the selection of units in what ever list I play on their purpose in an overall basic strategy in conjunction with their role with regards to other units. If you find that the list you play with, requires more mobility than defense, then I agree a bolt thrower is an unnecessary (or static) addition to a what is a dynamic army.

But. The DE have are one of the few lists that offers some real diversity in army composition (imo) and therefore does not play the same game everytime or with every general. It's all very well giving impressive mathematical breakdowns of one unit's performance, but as vejlin indicated, you can't base a unit's performance on it's statline or kills per turn.

@ Drakken:
I'm not a regular tournament player, but I play againsts lists that are tournament lists, played by tournament players. Besides, after reading my comment below, you will understand why that is irrelevant.

You're making sweeping statements on several occassions such as: "not "enough armour pen", "can't win shooting duels" and structuring your argument around a single playing style. My opinion is based solely on the notion that units have different functions and purposes in differently composed armies. If you're going to assemble an argument, compile it around that statement.


Tue Jun 22, 2004 3:02 pm
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Oh yeah, the RBT are too often overfeared. But I have the same experience like noted above, taking RBTs makes most opponents behave in a crippled way. But the effectiveness is not great, and especially not against the Brets, where I have quite good experience with magic.

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Tue Jun 22, 2004 3:15 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Quote:
Oh yeah, the RBT are too often overfeared. But I have the same experience like noted above, taking RBTs makes most opponents behave in a crippled way. But the effectiveness is not great, and especially not against the Brets, where I have quite good experience with magic.

I agree as well. I always have thought to bring two RBT's to a match no matter what! But as I have seen the review I might only take one and maybe none at all. However if that is going to happen I need something to have a heavy punch against large monsters right!? So in doing so you do lose a bit of power even if it's a 40% chance sometimes!
I do agree as well with Drakken and will if i do bring one RBT now, if at all, will only use it alone and maybe have a sacrificial spearelf unit only with enough stuff to hold off some opponents say around 80pts.
Changing a bit here in though....
If we do not bring the RBT's anymore what then will take it's place for long range and short range heavy hitting power or do we just compensate like a blind man and have really good senses elsewhere? And what is the unit/s to compensate for it?

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Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:12 pm
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@Draenor, it was meant more to determine if you played All-Comers type lists or Design to fight your enemy lists, thats all.

You want a detailed statement instead of "sweeping generalizations?" Fine. You will not be successful in a defensive engagement the majority of the time if the majority of your shooting is S3 (No Armor Pen) 24" backed-up by either 24 S4 AP Shots or 6 S6 No Save. This means, basically it comes across very hard to decrease an enemies fighting power significantly without the ability to sucessful counter-act High Speed/High Armor Threats. There, did I explain it well enough now? You consider in optimal for its role, I ask you what do you think its role is? It can do nothing solid besides kill things or act as expensive bait, and (as the numbers prove) it doesn't excel enough at that...

Basically, there is nothing an RBT does that can't be duplicated by a more versailte unit. There's no job that only an RBT can perform, and I would rather have units that do other things and are less vulernable.

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Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:46 pm
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@Drakken:
Thank you for your clarification/s. I do use an all-comers list (try) and as with any list it is more effective against some armies than others. I have to contest with you on the issue that S3 shooting backed up with a few RBTs is insignificant in decreasing an enemies fighting power. My opinion is that it can, and no army is immune to focused shooting.

"It can do nothing solid besides kill things..." If you read a few of the previous posts on this topic, you'll find that we've already looked at the psychological and movement domination that the can RBT bring to a game. Similar to that of a hell blaster volley gun. I also know plenty of successful DE players that play defensively and win.

I think dictator pointed out one useful example, and that is that the RBT is very effective against large monsters (including large flying ones). eg: How would you kill a HE dragon effectively? with magic? another dragon perhaps? If you read through the tactics forum, have a look at how many times players have suggested the use of RBTs in different situations.

Everyone agrees that RBTs have weaknesses, but what unit doesn't? I personally don't think that the role of a RBT is directly replaceable, and thats exactly what it comes down to: Personality. which in turn dictates playing style. I think its a very good thing that DE generals disagree on different tactics for the same problems, keeps our opponents guessing in battle.


Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:09 pm
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Slave (off the Altar)
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FYI, I have just updated the Damage charts for Monsters and Monstrous Mounts (both of the "regular" and of the "large target" variety). The results may well be illuminating, however they seem to reaffirm my personal - and quite extensive - experience with non-Elven artillery, specifically with BS3 bolt throwers.

To Draenor. The fatal flaw in your logic is that most veteran players would, or at least should, know that an RBT's actual damage potential is relatively low, and as such its fire would not pose a dramatic threat so long as no gross mistakes (e.g. marching a T3 mage out to the RBT all by himself) are made. This is particularly true if said veterans' armies include dedicated war machine hunters, as is typically the case in a tournament setting.

Having thus eliminated much of the RBT's psychological impact - and to reiterate, the RBT is not and will never be even remotely close to even the oft-exploding Helblaster in terms of damage potential, and thus area denial capability - we are left with its original role of inflicting actual kills. [As an aside - 4 RBTs may begin to approach the Helblaster's area denial potential, but then they cost that much more, and are that much easier to take out with flyers, scouts, etc.][Never mind the fact that at that points cost, a Manticore or even a Noble on a Pegasus makes for a far better "area denial" instrument.] For better or worse, the RBT, even in pairs or more, is not an optimal instrument of death.

As such, you face two choices - the first is to play Dark Elves as they were intended, with heavy emphasis on dominating the Movement phase. In this case, the RBT becomes a static source of near-certain Victory Points for your opponent, even if it does manage to get more than two volleys off before it is destroyed. Alternatively, you could begin to dedicate units - or even the bulk of your army - to establishing a defensive position around your RBT or RBTs. Yet the killing power is just not there (i.e. you won't ever dominate the Shooting Phase), and moreover you will have most likely forfeited a good portion of your initial advantage in the Movement and other phases to the enemy. [Something important enough in Pitched Battles, but even moreso in randomly-generated scenarios or in many tournament settings.]

Of course, the entire argument is moot is your opponent happens to be a 12-year old with barely sufficient intellect to roll a pair of dice. However, I am making a rather wild assumption that this entire discussion will be at least of some help in fine-tuning a Dark Elf army towards a more competitive setting. The bottom line of it all is this - expending 30-45 points on Bolt Throwers, as you would with Orcs, Dwarfs and others, is generally acceptable, even in offense-oriented armies (as their eventual loss to enemy war machine hunters does not constitute a significant impact to the Victory Point bottom line). Expending 100 points on such a machine, even with the "advantages" of BS4 and multi-fire, is not terribly far from a folly. At least in my opinion.

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Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:44 am
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Wow. You just laid out my thoughts in a far more polite and eliquent manner than I would. Pyschological impact? I have never seen a pychological impact of against foes of a quality caliber from a 100 pts Static War Machine. Playing All-Comes lists means at least 1 (usually 3) quality War Machine removal elements, which means those static little Bolt Throwers won't play for themselves in any way. What (to me, and obivously a few others) it boils down to is a near-stationary and incredibly vulnerable unit that must kill things, and just doesn't excel at it for its cost. Its has no clear-cut area it excels, and its forces you into a disadvantagous situation. As I've said numerous times, 1 can have uses, 2 isn't going to pay for itself over a weekend, and 4 means you deserve to be slapped or are new.

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Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:52 am
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Kudos to Zhou Tai for his stirring insights and dead-on logic. I, too, have eschewed RBTs for mobile firepower (riders and shades). Even my DoW crossbowmen have been relegated to the bin. My RBX warriors are currently on hiatus till GTs become 2150.

In my mind, artillery or war machines should be able to kill things that are otherwise hard to bring down by magic, small-arms fire, or combat. Some of these things are flyers (needing to roll to hit is not good), cavalry (not enough armor penetration or too few wounds/success when you single shot), monsters (see cavalry).

I have yet to find an efficient way to take out flying units, and a monster is easily dispatched with 180 pts of warriors with full command (+5 CR, +6 if you flank them). I believe one of the earlier Druchii monthlies had a good article on their suboptimal nature. Most war machines are good alone, and better/nasty in multiples. The RBT is ok if you get one, inadequate if you take up to 4, and only starts becoming nasty if you take the City Guard list.

Don't get me wrong, I have used the things, and I'll continue to use them occasionally. . . however for now, they are the 200pts of support for my allied Chaos Dwarf campaign partner. RBTs in a stationary, heavy-fire army is simply nasty. But in a maneuver army like the Druchii. . . they are somewhat less than nasty.

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Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:18 pm
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Dark Rider

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@ Zhou Tai,
It's quite sad that you've had to resort to calling my opponent a "12-year old with barely sufficient intellect to roll a pair of dice" to validate your position in this discussion which has simply amounted to opinion bashing and more severe generalisations. It shows your lack of maturity in dealing with conflicting opinions in a formal discourse. Lighten up and try to refrain from name calling in the future if you want to be taken seriously.

I'm not trying to change anyone's point of view on this thread, and have respect for each person's perspective on the matter. In turn I'd like respect for my own opinions and views based on my own experiences and tactics. So far you've managed to take my comments as far out of context as English will allow or have not understood them at all.

This is the second time I've had to state my postition: "...the notion that units have different functions and purposes in differently composed armies..." Hence giving units a varible value rating depending on playing style and army list.


Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:43 am
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Good point, there, Daenor, and I apologize if any of my comments offended. In the case of RBTs, you are correct that the composition of the army as a whole dictates the merits more than the RBT itself. However, since most of the DE players I've met like to have a moving/maneuver army, the RBT lacks the synergy to complement such armies.

If someone were to make an army (as Drakken put it) whose role was to sit back and defend the RBTs by countercharging, then they are a very strong asset. Otherwise, they stay undefended and get taken out relatively easily. Judicious placement (as in my Games day and previous GT tournaments) can eliminate the easy-VP issue, but there is still the factor of how to seamlessly weave them into the army theme as a whole.

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Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:44 pm
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Dark Rider

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@Ash
(No offence taken)
I think that summarizes the discussion quite nicely into a couple of sentences and gives it a focus...


Sat Jun 26, 2004 4:03 pm
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Dark Rider

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I personaly like RBT because they are awesome in a light cavalry based army... Why? you ask... Let me explain:

With a long ranged immobile fire platform you can do 2 things:

A bristleing wave of firepower that draws enemy troops like a moth to a flame presenting nice flanks, and:

You can place them on the flanks of your army in LOS of your light cavalry in the center which presents a glittering cape to your oppenent till you spear him with a barrage of arrows. One hit with the single shot can often turn the tide of the entire game.


Furthermore while i can understand people feeling the need to protect these units I have found that with the speed of the dark riders you can usualy do this much easier with them than with an immobile unit of warriors who would serve better as advancing legionares with their shields and RXB...


That is just how i have used my RBT not to say they are the perfect addition to any army. But if you do it right i have found they work perfectly into a strong army. Just gotta be lucky with thier rolls.


Sat Jun 26, 2004 7:45 pm
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For Dark RIders to function effectively, they need to dominate the movement phase. That's kind of hard to do when enemy light cav is in the way.

I take RBT's for one reason only...to gurantee that enemy light cav dies, which is something RBT's do rather well at.

Also, Bolt Throwers excel against giants, I notice that 2 bolt throwers will average about 3 wounds vs. a giant. That's killing the giant in about 2 turns, maybe 3 if you can't roll well.


Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:21 am
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I hate this thread... It makes me want to throw out my reapers, which i already own 2 of. Zhou tai better be willing to refund all our RBTs :P

It's true, they never do make their points back.

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Sun Jun 27, 2004 5:03 am
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i didnt realise the multi shot was so good vs chaos knights!

kills 1 per turn (supposedly, ruddy dice!), thats pretty impressive!

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Sun Jun 27, 2004 11:03 am
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Wow this is perfect...*copies into word presses print* really great

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Sun Jun 27, 2004 11:36 am
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wow that is depressing...

i have been thinking about replacing my 2 RBTS with a 2nd hydra for some time now but i have always held back because i thought mya rmy needed soem range support...

i think now i'll try it. i average alot more damage on my hydra...


of course one thing we do not put into the math is how it makes your opponent act. a couple rbts will make your opponent wary of sending units down certain paths of the map or the order they send units down them. RBTs can slow opponents down for psychological reasons as well.


Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:06 pm
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Good post

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Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:34 am
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