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Opportunistic Tactics - or 'Where did THAT come from?' 
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Morathi's Favoured
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In light of a recent chat a few of us have been having over an idea FatonToast discovered, I thought I would pen few musings over what we are now calling 'Opportunistic Tactics'. Also known by the more humourous name of " Where the Hell did that come from then? ".

As oft heard exclaimed by an opponent when hit by a surprise and abstract tactical move :lol:

So, what is this article all about? Well I figured I would put into print the sort of off-hand tactic that lady luck will offer to you from time to time, and which could just turn around some bad luck, or change a situation more into your favour. Whether it is as simple as a delaying tactic to buy more time, or whether an idea to quickly take out an enemy character when the chance appears, none of these ideas are being presented as the basis around which to design a list.

They are being offered as surprises for when a situation is ideally set for them to work.

So, I am going to start with the Suicide Bomber. The level 1 / 2 Sorceress carrying the Web of Shadows. I feel fairly confident by now that most players are familiar with the Steed of Shadows charge out of a unit and into a character ( or war machine is you cast it onto a fighting hero ). Quite an accepted, and expected tactic on many battlefields nowadays. But how about this.......

- I was playing against my friend Anthony and his Bretonnian army. He was bearing down on the flank of my spearElves with a unit of Knights which were led by his general who was on a Pegasus. There was little I could do about the inevitable charge in his next turn from a movement perspective. I needed two turns of movement to get myself back into position so I needed a delaying tactic. I cast steed of shadows and charged my Suicide Bomber at the Bret' general and issued a challenge. He accepted with his general as he had no choice and was confident he would win. I used the Web of Shadows in the challenge and directed all the attacks against the Pegasus. Pegasus dies, as does my Sorceress. But what it did was stop the next turn charge as the Bret general was now in the unit and on foot, seriously limiting his movement rate. he overan obviously as a result of the combat win, but with 2d6 only. He then decided not to attempt a charge in his turn as the Bret general's foot movement meant any flee I declared would be successful, and he was in for being charged by me in the next turn. I won the game after that.

- Another favourite use of mine for steed of shadows is the 'come an ave a go if yer think yer ard enuff' flight move. This is a tactic again I use for delaying the enemy approach. I will fly a character and position them 1" in front of a big unit of Knights, or an Infantry unit. He is now faced with charging an unintended target or trying to move, or not move, acxcording to the restriction this has put on him. I used it with great effect in the UK GT Heat 2 when I positioned a Bray Shaman in front of a unit of advancing Knights. He knew if he charged I would flee and leave him exposed, but he also knew that if he stayed or retreated he would still be exposed. His only choice was to try and position a fast cavalry unit on his flank to offer some kind of protection. Net result to me was taking out the flank protector and the knights as both fled from terror from 2 seperate causes. I won the game.

I used the same tactic to halt a unit of Chosen Tzeentch Knights once, in fact they ended up retreated and panicked off the board from shooting :lol:


Sat Nov 27, 2004 3:24 pm
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The Devil in Pale Moonlight
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which kinda spells out the reason i dont really like the peggies, to easy to beat down in a duel :p

interesting ideas but i think you have brought the ideas forth quite awhile back... i think :P

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Sat Nov 27, 2004 3:48 pm
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Dark Rider Gambits These come under the headings of DR Gambits. They are easy to do bc the DR are so fast and maneuverable, and because they are so annoying to the enemy as he has very little choices.

Dark Rider Redirect Put a unit of DR in front of the enemy's uber whatever. Turn the DR at a desired angle. He charges expecting you to flee so that he can redirect hopefully. Either way hes stuck because moving around the DR is almost impossible. You stand and take the charge (I have found this surprisingly unexpected even from the best players). He is stuck in a horridly wrong facing that takes the uber out of the game or sets it up for a nasty charge.

Dark Rider Trap Park the DR 1" in front of a fast enemy unit (ie knights) so that your chances of rolling any reasonable flee distance on a 3d6 is miserable. Enemy charges you (or once again he has to reform to try and get by which takes way too long), your DR cannot roll far enough to get away. He HAS to now move his FULL charge distance usually placing his unit in a forest (which will take forever to get out of) or into a flanking charge of your own, on your side of the board.




Suicide Black Guard Make a largish (15) sized unit of BG and plop the fear banner on them (if facing undead). Charge them into a horde army and let them get flanked by his units. Countercharge with your strong units once he has piled up, and nail them on the easily obtainable flanks.

The Great Chariot Force Shield When Co-charging with a chariot and a ranked unit and you think you might get flanked by some stupid enemy unit of fast cav or other stuff that may remove your ranks if he makes his break test (or you're playing against dumb empire detachments), always set up so that your chariot will take the flank charge. This means he won't be flanking your ranked unit and it will retain its rank bonus. He'll only get the plus 1 flank bonus and he might fail fear test and not even charge in the first place. Works beautifully in combo with the BG. Also note that it will save you against ghouls bloody poison as chariots cannot be poisoned and we all hate ghoul flank charges even though they don't remove ranks.
Diagram
....E1
.E2CB Where E1, E2 are enemy units, C is your chariot and B is your black guard.


Following Fall Under the Category of Plain Game Sillyness

Bigg Ass Make a unit of 25-30 spears with a largish frontage. Put the noble with the Banner of Nag in it. When you are within enemy charge range, turn the entire unit so your rear is facing the charge. He charges but the noble cannot be challenged or fought since he isn't in combat and he is still in front of the unit its still inbreakable. Mop up with countercharges. Works great against Bret armies full of knights.

Small Ass Place the noble with the banner of Nag in a very large unit of DR, say about 10. Place its rear within charge range of the enemy but in a long conga line with the noble at the front way out of charge range and combat. Enemy charges it, but since your DR only has a small facing he shouldn't get many hits on it. Flank charge and mop up.

The Spear Net This is the most rediculous silly tactic and is only used against armies so full of cheese such as all chariot beast armies, etc. Make a huge unit of spearmen such that it covers the board plus some extras in the back rank to give it some life. Give a noble the Banner of Nag and make a long line of the spearmen and finally place the noble at the far end behind some terrain or where it is hard for him to get charged, like at the back of the board. Sweep the spearnet around with the noble as the hub of the net such that it catches everything in its wake. (This is why there is a limit on the size of most unbreakable units.). Then use your Lord with the GOP on the manticore/dragon to casually sweep clean the netting of all its inhabitants. This is a silly tactic but very amusing against cheesers who have no idea how to play and just make an army based upon the most they can put in it.

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Last edited by Langmann on Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:36 pm, edited 8 times in total.



Sat Nov 27, 2004 3:54 pm
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Danceman wrote:
interesting ideas but i think you have brought the ideas forth quite awhile back... i think :P
Well. Lets make a collection then. Do you have any ideas?

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Sat Nov 27, 2004 3:55 pm
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The Devil in Pale Moonlight
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this might be spin off i dont know but here we go.

anointed + strike first using lore of slaanesh. place it infront of a unit of cav, stop 1 infron of it.
Now he cannot flee but he can stay right infrom them and throw some spells, the default spell being very deadly.

he must charge him or move around but for the anointed it doesnt matter who charges as he will strike first either way.
you should not be mounted on steed of slaanesh now of course since will pretty much hand you opponent combat res.

also this should give him protection from shooting.

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Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:19 pm
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I think that The Village Idiot's mounted characters in infantry units fits rather good here to, as no one expect it

here is a link to it.
www.warhammer-empire.com/war_mounted1.htm

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Sat Nov 27, 2004 5:06 pm
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Langman:
:lol: I love the general game sillyness ones. Hadn't thought about it, and it makes soooooo much sense. I am going to have to put together a list with that sort of stuff in it. It will be just hillarious. Infact I have a tournie game comming up where I can pull it off. Beautiful :D

DA: You can't put a peg mounted character in a unit of peg knights. Units of flyers may never be joined by characters and all that rubbish.

I have a coulpe of little tit bitz for getting peg knights for those over eager bret players out there. Full credit to ash who gave me the ideas.

Bottoms up: Get aranked unit, prefferabley a unbannered cheap unit march it up so its within their charge range, and give them the rear or flank. Being over eager they charge, you flee and the trap is set, whether your unit escapes or not is of little consequence. Flyers always goo 20"!

Easy Kills: Many Bret plyers will quit cleverly use their pegs to remove your riders, which lets face it is their only real way of killing them. So What you do is move your DR unit up wellk into there charge range and make it look like your setting upa flank on something else and haven't realise that their pegs can charge you. They will almost always charge, they go 20" you mop them up...


EDIT: Might I suggest this gets pinned and added to the hall of fame. I have a strange feeling this is going to become one of the most useful threads on the site....

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Sat Nov 27, 2004 5:29 pm
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Bigg Ass Make a unit of 25-30 spears with a largish frontage. Put the noble with the Banner of Nag in it. When you are within enemy charge range, turn the entire unit so your rear is facing the charge. He charges but the noble cannot be challenged or fought since he isn't in combat and he is still in front of the unit its still inbreakable. Mop up with countercharges. Works great against Bret armies full of knights.


this is how i subdue a bret peg army :)

i had one but its for TK. i had a 16 man strong tk cav unit. my enemy is abt to send flyers to hit my screaming skull. upon realiseing that i spread my cav out in a single straight line. blocking los

there is another one wherea high sorc on peg charges cav unit in the flank. this works well especially if the enemy have no command. use the peg's 2 S5 hits to kill of the knight. the unit is trap and can then couintercharge with other stuff. of coz....this is base on the assumption that u have nothing to cast...use ur judgement

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Sat Nov 27, 2004 5:42 pm
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Morathi's Favoured
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Conga Lines.

Dark Riders in conga lines are great fun. I like to form them up in a conga line on a flank ahead of charging into the flank of a unit. You only have 1 model in btb at the point of combat but, the enemy will only have at best 2 models. You negate ranks whilst picking up flank to balance the outnumber. Unless you are really unlucky you will end up pinning the unit in place with a long line of DRs blocking other movement ( or charges ) he may have had in mind for his next turn. This is another tactic designed to buy you time in the movement phase should you find yourself out of position, or for any reason feel you need to slow his advance down.

This can lead to all kinds of countercharge opportunities and bump stops.

In the Cult of Slaanesh list the same tactic can prove deadly for an opponent if you use Mounted Daemonettes and cast the spell to make them unbreakable. No expensive Banner of Nag and no BSB to worry about.

The Harpy Kiss of Death. Perfect for taking out Wizards and Goblin Shaman hiding in units. Quite simply a headlong charge into the unit. You will get 3 models on him which is 6 attacks. Usually enough to take out most mages of t3. The 3d6 flee move quite often allowing the remaining Harpies to get away.

I have used DRs in a column 2 models wide to much the same effect.


Sat Nov 27, 2004 5:49 pm
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Morathi's Favoured
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RasputinII wrote:

DA: You can't put a peg mounted character in a unit of peg knights. .


He wasn't in a unit of Pegasus Knights, he was mounted on a Pegasus in a unit of Questing Knights.


Point of caution about trying to pull Pegasus Knights around the board with bait and flee etc. Remember that they too have the option to flee when you counter charge, and many Brett players I have seen do in fact flee with their Pegasus Knights on a regular basis. Losing the Blessing on that unit is a small price to pay for bringing your units into charge range of a lance or two.


Sat Nov 27, 2004 5:51 pm
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Sure they often flee, but thats where judging their 20" is important, and then using Kel's very precise order of charge stuff comes in. Which leads to some other points, as stolen from other people ;)

Order of Charge: When declaring charges many people forget about the order of charge. This is actually very useful when it comes to declaing charges on handgunner units and other stand and shoot units. Get one unit to within half its charge range. Even if its one Dark Rider. Then declare a charge. Their reaction can't be stand and shoot. They must then decide whether to hold hoping nothing else charges or flee incase other stuff charges. Then you can declare charges of other units against that unit who are over their half charge range away and not get shot at. Very useful for getting infantry into CC that one is. Cheers Kel.

Kill a Beast Herd a day: Again, due to order of charge. Take two units at a signifficat distance apart. Declare one's charge on the herd. Should the bestherd hold then it will form up against that unit. Then declare the second units charge, they will now get the flank, giving you + 1 CR and negating their +2 CR, not to mention giving you access to the T3 ungor...

Character Sniping: Do you just hate when that darned character/ratling gun is hugging a unitand as such you can't blast their brains out? Provided they aren't protectedby more then 1-2 units this should work. Charge your harpie or shade, or even DR headlong into the units that are providing cover. Once they are in CC you can magic and shoot the character/weapons team to your hearts content. Hopefully you will escape the pursuit move too.

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Sat Nov 27, 2004 6:04 pm
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Coward lord on flying moster:

a trick I have used is a normal flee trap, but with a flying moster (this works best if you play brets or lots of heavy cav).....put the monster just within charge range, angled a bit to the side so he must wheel showing his flank to your fast hard hiting units

this can also be used to drag a good unit forward, giving you the charge with 2 or more units against his one

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Sat Nov 27, 2004 7:23 pm
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langmann wrote:
The Spear Net This is the most rediculous silly tactic and is only used against armies so full of cheese such as all chariot beast armies, etc. Make a huge unit of spearmen such that it covers the board plus some extras in the back rank to give it some life. Give a noble the Banner of Nag and make a long line of the spearmen and finally place the noble at the far end behind some terrain or where it is hard for him to get charged, like at the back of the board. Sweep the spearnet around with the noble as the hub of the net such that it catches everything in its wake. (This is why there is a limit on the size of most unbreakable units.). Then use your Lord with the GOP on the manticore/dragon to casually sweep clean the netting of all its inhabitants. This is a silly tactic but very amusing against cheesers who have no idea how to play and just make an army based upon the most they can put in it.


this is.. this is just.. -sigh- i can't find no word to describe this.. did you figure it out by yourself? i must say this is actually genius.. but if i'm playing someone and we go to deployment time and then i say : okay i deploy this here what do you deploy? then he start lining his elves.. and still keep on lining after 10 minutes, i think i'll just pack my stuff and go home.. :P

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Sat Nov 27, 2004 7:44 pm
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Dark Riders Up The Ass
This has worked once for me, when it was a game-breaking move. Send a few units of Dark Riders around the back of an enemy force if possible, and feint towards his warmachines. He will either ignore you and accept the sacrifice of his warmachines, or he'll divert units to try to deal with your fast cav. Either way, you should still be able to pull off this trick.

Position your Dark Riders so that they can charge either the back of his flagship unit, or his war machine. Obviously he'll think you're going for the war machine. Then, on your charge phase, slam a unit of 5 Dark Riders into the rear end of his flagship unit. With 5 strength 4 attacks, and 5 strength 3 attacks, you should cause enough damage to be able to break the enemy, and you'll negate their rank bonus. It turns into something ridiculous like this: Enemy- 1 point for outnumber, 1 point for banner. You- 2 points for rear, 2 points for kill, enemy rank bonus is negated. Against empire, they're testing on leadership 7 or so IF THEY HAVE AN ELECTOR COUNT in the unit.
My personal experience with this tactic was against Skaven, and it was into the rear of a unit of 35 clanrats with a warlord in it, I killed 4 of the 5 clanrats in the back rank, giving me +6 to CR, and he had +2 to CR. he was testing on leadership 3. he broke and ran, my Dark Riders rode down his whole freaking unit.

Btw, this thread is absolutely brilliant, keep up the good work!

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Sat Nov 27, 2004 8:22 pm
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I love this tactic, so......



Giant Horde or English Football Fans
Quite simply, all infantry, all together, charge round the board all together.

Lunatic
Get a lone character, plonk them infront of a frenzy unit and get a few units behind him. The inevitable overrun will mean it's 3 units on one.

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Sat Nov 27, 2004 8:23 pm
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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Dalakh Deathblow wrote:
langmann wrote:
The Spear Net This is the most rediculous silly tactic and is only used against armies so full of cheese such as all chariot beast armies, etc. Make a huge unit of spearmen such that it covers the board plus some extras in the back rank to give it some life. Give a noble the Banner of Nag and make a long line of the spearmen and finally place the noble at the far end behind some terrain or where it is hard for him to get charged, like at the back of the board. Sweep the spearnet around with the noble as the hub of the net such that it catches everything in its wake. (This is why there is a limit on the size of most unbreakable units.). Then use your Lord with the GOP on the manticore/dragon to casually sweep clean the netting of all its inhabitants. This is a silly tactic but very amusing against cheesers who have no idea how to play and just make an army based upon the most they can put in it.


this is.. this is just.. -sigh- i can't find no word to describe this.. did you figure it out by yourself? i must say this is actually genius.. but if i'm playing someone and we go to deployment time and then i say : okay i deploy this here what do you deploy? then he start lining his elves.. and still keep on lining after 10 minutes, i think i'll just pack my stuff and go home.. :P


Its corny cheesy and I have used it against an all chariot army. After the game was over the guy agreed that his chariots were stupid and he'd bring a normal army next time.

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Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:02 am
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Great thread! Got me really thinking. I think I'll be using single file fast cav as screens sometime in the near future.

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Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:58 am
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sometimes....i know i can do these i tend not to do it...its so unfriendly...unless my oponent is a bastard...

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Sun Nov 28, 2004 11:23 am
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@Darkspear:
Its unfriendly to play well? Its unfriendly to use cunning tactics. I don't think so. Thats how to play the game well. I am sorry but I just find that impossible to believe....

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ok, I see this is a heavy metal group posting in this subject, so I've come to the right place to ask you experienced generals what is the best way to deal with that overpowered Imrik and that overpowered dragon of his...
I've tried pinning him down with magic, but I was unlucky enough for my level 4 high sorceress AND a level two sorceress rolling random spells and dominion not showing up,also the terrain I end up taking in my side of the field sucked bigtime, filled with hideouts for that stinking dragon...well, he didn't even charge once, but he didn't need to, since he distracted me from most of the rest of the battle because he was my main concern...:(


Sun Nov 28, 2004 3:05 pm
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Order of Charge: When declaring charges many people forget about the order of charge. This is actually very useful when it comes to declaing charges on handgunner units and other stand and shoot units. Get one unit to within half its charge range. Even if its one Dark Rider. Then declare a charge. Their reaction can't be stand and shoot. They must then decide whether to hold hoping nothing else charges or flee incase other stuff charges. Then you can declare charges of other units against that unit who are over their half charge range away and not get shot at. Very useful for getting infantry into CC that one is. Cheers Kel.

Now this is a new one. Where does it say this in the rulebook? Because it seems genius to me, since I use DR/Harpies and Manticores, this will work wonders against Empire handgunners, if it is indeed legal that is. If you could point out where it says this i'd be grateful.

Cerulaetas, i'm going to have to try that trick with the dark riders, sounds very interesting.

This is a fantastic thread, keep up the good work

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Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:52 pm
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Page 46 in the main rule book, under the heading 'Move Chargers' - it clearly states that you move chargers in the order they were declared.

This is extremely important when dealing with skirmishers, especially Beastherds.


Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:21 pm
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darkspear wrote:
sometimes....i know i can do these i tend not to do it...its so unfriendly...unless my oponent is a bastard...


I just want to say that this thread is not about cheesey tactics. Read my intro again in the lead post. It is about the various surprise tactics that you can use to turn a game around when all seems lost. For most of these ideas to work a great number of random conditions need to be present, and they are still down to successful dice rolls.

IMO you should not feel bad about using any of these, in practice you should end up having a giggle about them :D


Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:26 pm
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Yeah, but do you not ahve to declare ALL charges before the opp declares his charge reaction?

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Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:27 pm
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The Sniper Bolt Thrower:You place two units in front of a bolt thrower so that they limit its line of sight. Harpies, shades and dark riders work best. There should only be a tiny gap between these two units, so that the bolt thrower can only see the desired target. Being within 5" of a unit doesn't help a mage in this case, as the mage is the closest target!

It also works vs ratling guns and the like, who like to sit next to the ranked unit and not behind it.


Last edited by Ka'tala on Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:42 pm
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