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Advanced MSU -> the RUN (also a guide for beginners) 
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Highborn
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Disclaimer:
Its something I was thinking about for a long time.
It is surely not totally my idea, but its a fruit of all Druchii (and not only) players work I have gathered and compiled. Its all based on observation I have made during THE REVISION PLAYTESTING and casual games against varios opponents. Some may say its BASIC, because we create our armies with intuition. But some things should be pointed.
I hope for YOUR input and help with improving this tactic.


Prologue:
While MSU is great tactics against hordes and low stats armies (such as Orcs and Goblins and Skaven) it still lack the power to deal with hard enemies (like Chaos or Dwarfs). Its because the higher profiles of those enemies. Im sure you have noticed that Chaos Warriors bounce off two units of 10 strong DE spearelves units with ease even despite the flank charge. Same applies to Iron Breakers and other elite infantries. Of course you can always try to take them out with your Heavy Cavalery, but its not always possible. That is why I want to make UNIVERSAL composition rules for units that will still allow the full freedom of army building.
The RIGHT UNIT NUMBERS.

Content:
What I mean by Right Unit Numbers?
Right number of units on board.
Right number of models in unit.
Right number of rows.
A right balance between those numbers will lead to perfect army composition.
To maximize army performance we usulay tweak the whole army against opponent we expect to play. But this is imposible while playing a turnament play. We have to compile a STATIC ROOSTER that must work against all armies we meet on the battlefield. Only thing we can change is army setup and row numbers (as they are not specified in the rooster). So lets choose the best nuber of models and rows in unit as the number of units itself will depend on a tactic you choose. Remember that we should use our skills (stats) against weaker opponents (thats why we expand frontage) and we use numbers against Elites (thats when we increase the ranks number).

Spearelves
Number of models: 12-20 (my choice is 15)
Number of rows: 2-4
Reason:
They are weak. Simple. They need rows to deal with harder, more expesive opponents. Their low (7-8 pts) cost allow larger numbers, so why not use it? MSU lists often use only 10, but I find it too small to deal with many threats.

Rxbowelves
Number of models: 10-12 (my choice is 10)
Number of rows: 1-2
Reasoning:
They are shooters. They shouldn't charge at full speed, but they are still quite effective during the combat phase. Their 2 rows option should be enough to deal with skirmishers and fliers (like Furies). You can set them up in 2 rows against horde armies and in 3 or 4 against Elites.

Dark Riders
Number of models: 5-6 (my choice is 5)
Number of rows: 1
Reasoning:
THey are Fast Cav. They dont benefit from ranks and larger number means they are less usefull in movment phase. Better take another unit 0f 5 than one of 10.

Corsairs
Number of models: 10-20 (my choice is 15-16)
Number of rows: 2-3
Reasoning:
They are fast shock troop ready to deal with light enemy infantry. They are good flanking force due to their 2A. You can set them up in 5-5-5 or 6-6-4 formation against Hordes and in 4 rows against Elites.

Cold One Knights
Number of models: 5-10 (my choice is 6 or 8)
Number of rows: 1-2
Reasoning:
They are expensive. And they are heavy protected (2+ AS). With their lances, S4 cold ones and FEAR they can take out most enemy regiments when fighting 1on1. Larger number of Knights will allow easier outnumber+fear=auto-break, so its worth to consider 8 models in this unit. Its the easiets way to deal with Chaos Knights.

Cold One Chariot
Number of models: N/A
Number of rows: N/A
Reasoning:
Too many CO chariots in the army equals too many failed stupidity test, so I think 2 is the maximum number of those units. They perform very good with CoB and work very well while ridden by noble (US5 on flank=nagating ranks).

Witch Elves
Number of models: 10-15 (my choice is 12)
Number of rows: 2-3
Reasoning:
They are expensive and frenzied. The smaller number of ranks will allow them to avoid enemy charge arcs when they rush into combat. The perfect setup against hordes is 2 ranks, but when fighting Elites in Heavy Armours may require 4 ranks, as they dont get much CR (combat resolution) from combat. Hag with manebane should be nice, but witch brew is also worth considering.

Executioners
Number of models: 10-15 (my choice is 10)
Number of rows: 2-3
Reasoning:
They are meant to be our flanking unit. Some players use them in 20-25 blocks with some success, but I dont belive its either fluffy nor effective. They shouldn't be deployed in more then 2 rows too often, as they are support unit for wearker ones (Spearelves or Corsairs, sometimes Witch Elves) and they benefit from their rows number anyway.

Shades
Number of models: 5-6 (my choice is 5)
Number of rows: N/A
Reasoning:
They are skirmishers - they dont benefit from ranks. Also larger number makes hidding them behind enemy lines difficult.

Harpies
Number of models: 5-7 (my choice is 5)
Number of rows: N/A
Reasoning:
Fliers = No ranks. Larger number (7) may be required to deal with war machines and to prevent panic tests from shooting. For march-blocking 5 is exact number.

Balck Guard
Number of models: 10-15 (my choice is 12)
Number of rows: 2 (3 only if you want to play them offensive)
Reasoning:
They are excelent doing what they do - glueing the most dangerous troops and soaking their number for 3 or four turns. I say - take 12 of them in two ranks, no standard nor musician - only champion and charge is Cav or Elite infantry. You wil win 2-4 free turns and you can deal with their threat later - after killing the rest of opponents army.

War Hydra
Number of models: N/A
Number of rows: N/A
Reasoning:
Well... Its a monster.

Reaper Bolt Thrower
Number of models: 1-2 per 1000 pts (my choice is 1 for each FULL 666 pts)
Number of rows: N/A
Reasoning:
Depends on your army style - agressive armies wont shoot with them after turn 2 or 3, so their numbers should be reduced. Deffensive/Shooty ones should max their numbers.


The army should combine the MSU (MSE) with ROW/NUMBER-power.
When deploying the troops its worth to consider what opponent will they fight:
- if weaker unit=>cheaper troops - then use DE skills to gain CR by HtH fight
- if better unit=>more expensive one - then use rows and outnumber to give you so needed CR.
Balance is the key. And the number of units VERY important. As Malekithau, Dark Alliance and Langamnn (and many others) noted - the more troops you have the easier you win the movement phase.

Choos right troops:
If you already have Corsairs, Spears or Witch Elves - then add Executioners, COKs or Hydra to support their numbers with some strenght and vice versa. Always suplement your troops.

Epilogue:
I think this algorythm is true for other armies as well. I helped my friend build a descent chaos army using RUN. We choose two small (10 strong) units of Warriors and some deamons supported by larger numbers of marauders and beastmen. The army performed better than his previous version (two large blocks of Chaos Warriors supported by BIG Chaos Knights unit with small maraudrer block).

I understand that for many of you this is obvious, as we "feel" the right way to build armies, but I hope I've helped someone with building the UNIVERSAL ARMY.

Ill be glad to recive your comments and ideas on this.

(I am VERY sorry for my english. Ill try to fix any mistakes.)

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Last edited by Maelis on Sun Feb 29, 2004 3:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.



Tue Jun 24, 2003 10:09 am
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Slave (off the Altar)

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Very intresting...

Some questions though:

Command groups - How do you feel about command groups in MSU armies? I've seen people who use full command in all units, and people who only use champions in a few. I know there isn't a universal answer to this question, but which units do you think needs a command group, standard in particular?

Characters - I know that you can use most character combos in a MSU army, but since there are no obvious "main units", and leadership is more vital than usual, where do you recommend you deploy your characters, general in particular?

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Tue Jun 24, 2003 11:21 am
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Highborn
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Thank you for your questions Kinder. I will try to answear them the best I can:

Quote:
Command groups - How do you feel about command groups in MSU armies? I've seen people who use full command in all units, and people who only use champions in a few. I know there isn't a universal answer to this question, but which units do you think needs a command group, standard in particular?


OK,
I often use Standard Bearer in a unit of Rxbows to help them deal with scouts/skirmishers/fast cav/4th turn combat.
I would give Spearelves and Corsairs Full Commanf Group (unless they are supporting unit used with MSU - then only champion is added)
Dark Riders deserve a good Musician.
Full cammand goes for Cold One Knights and Witch Elves.
Executioners get only champion and sometimes musician (if any pts left).
Shades go alone - Bloodshade too expensive.
Black Guards should have only Champion - their task is to block and soak enemy (they dont need CR modifiers as they always test on LD9) unless you are playing them offensive, then full command is an option (you dont want to loose them quickly).

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Tue Jun 24, 2003 11:51 am
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Highborn
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Quote:
Characters - I know that you can use most character combos in a MSU army, but since there are no obvious "main units", and leadership is more vital than usual, where do you recommend you deploy your characters, general in particular?


That STRONGLY depends on a general tactic you want to use. ALL current uses for characters remain - so "heavy magic", "assassin in unit", "highborn with GoP on Manticore" and many other typical character setups remain.

I agree that the leadership is VERY important in MSU and Advanced MSU (here it matters a bit less, but still) as shooting and Terror can force mulitple LD test.
But please remember that they are still ELVES - LD8-9 helps A LOT (and that is why MSU CANT be applied to O&G and such).

And I prefer to take two additional units than a EXPENSIVE characters (unless I have special plan for them). Also because of this I dont spend much points on Magic Items (as the DE items are weak) - I take ONLY what I really need. Again - more troops are BETTER.

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Tue Jun 24, 2003 12:10 pm
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And YOU need to LET the SHIFT button GO! :roll:

No offense, but it's kinda annoying. May I recommend this, or this instead?

Btw, very interesting article, although I think you should expand it with a few notes on good combinations as well. After all, as you said, it's a beginner's guide, and so even the most obvious should probably be stated.

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Tue Jun 24, 2003 12:58 pm
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Highborn
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Sorry IF this IS annoying ;)
Its just easier to push SHIFT button, than to write those options brackets.

It is also a begginers guide - not only. I dont want to re-write Malekithau post and all comments.

For those who want to familiarize themselves with MSU here is the link:
The birth of MSU

I promise I post some examples and simplified tactics for MSU and A-MSU as soon as I can.

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Tue Jun 24, 2003 1:06 pm
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The Aspect of Murder
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Kinder wrote:
Characters - I know that you can use most character combos in a MSU army, but since there are no obvious "main units", and leadership is more vital than usual, where do you recommend you deploy your characters, general in particular?


Have your general on foot slightly behind your main battle line. He is very mobile and can lend a hand in any combat where he is needed.

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Tue Jun 24, 2003 1:30 pm
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The Aspect of Murder
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Maelis,

I've looked at your recommend numbers for the units, and I think that they are too large. I think you may be somewhat missing the point of MSU. Rarely are you going to be using units of more than 10 troops in them, to ensure greater numbers of units, which is the whole point of the strategy.

The only unit I can see a reason to go over 10 would possibly be a single Spear Elf regiment for added ranks. In general, however, 10 man units work great because they are cheap and expendable. Again, the whole point of the army.

Throw those 10 man Spearman units out front and force your opponent to deal with them. Have harder hitting units behind. When you flee from charges, you WANT the Spearman to be caught so that your enemy moves the full distance, thus putting them in range of a counter charge the next turn from Corsairs, Executioners, etc.

The small 10 man units also allow more flexibility in movement, and offer your opponent no good or obvious targets. When no unit in your army is worth even 200pts, it makes it very hard for big monsters, beefed out cavalry units, etc. to earn their points back. There is simply nothing worth charging for them...

And the greater number of units allows for heightened flexibility in deployment. I fear that your recommend numbers lean too much toward the normal ranked infantry methods most of us have been using already. Maybe I'm wrong, however. I'm just posting my thoughts... 8)

I have a 2000pt MSU list in the Army List forum that I would like you to rate if you have the time. :)

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Tue Jun 24, 2003 1:32 pm
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Highborn
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I agree with you that the recomended numbers are larger than typical MSU, but, lika I wrote in the topic, its Advanced MSU. And yes - it is something between MSU and STANDARD army composition. Early version of this was my MSE (Mulitple Specialized Elites).

The reasons I have decided to increase the number of models comparing to MSU are:
- I dont like my troops getting killed hunted down like scoundrels - they are Elves - just like me :evil:
- MSU doesnt work too good against more powerfull armies (with better stats, rules etc.) when it comes to combat. I know that the best way for DE is to avoid the fight, but sometimes I just want to smash my opponents when they least expect it :twisted:
- Adding 2 models to 10 Spears or Corsairs doesnt make it much more expensive, but gives you option to deploy them in 3 rows (and it is a lot, when fighting better enemy) - therefore your army is much more flexible.
- Did I metioned that I dont like to watch my troops die running away?
- I like balance. MSU in my oppinion is too othordoxic (how the hell I should spell that?).
- I fail ALL dice rolls. Really. I have 50% 1s ratio. Therefore I can rarely depend on my army performance. Rows and numbers come then handy.
- You will loose about 1 unit due the increased numbers.
- I REALLY dont like to remove my models after they are runned down and killed.

But thank you for your oppinion, I will rethink the model numbers again.

I promise I will look at your army as soon as I can (Im going home now - end of work day).

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Tue Jun 24, 2003 2:13 pm
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If you don't like removing models, shouldn't you use MSU?
I mean, with few exceptions, the place where the most models are lossed is when it breaks, and is run down. With Msu you lose 10 (i use 6X2 so i lose 12) models, as compared to 20 from before. Less models lost, less models taken off.
As for shooting...who cares? If one unit of 20 is hit by the hellblaster, it's gone. If the unit of 10 is hit, it's gone too. If the big unit is hit by the cannon, bolthrower, or stonethrower, it loses more models because more are hit.
Only normal shooting is effective against it (bows and such) and we all know that even shooty armies don't take to many of these, perferring warmachines instead

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Tue Jun 24, 2003 3:16 pm
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Highborn
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Well...
You are right about hellblaster and bolt throwres (as long as they are not Reaper or Repeater - those are devastatnig against MSU).
Normal shooting? How about Empire bows, crossbows, handguns, pistoleters? Or Dwarf crossbows, handguns and flame cannons?
Or Wood Elves. They are already constructed with MSU tactic, only 10x better at it (more mobile, more shooty, hidden in a forest, even smaller-but better units).

I think that MSU needs some improvment. Not much, but still. Why should I want to flee from charge only to make opponent move at his full charge range and I loose 70-80 pts, when I can make him move the same distance, hold him for two rounds and maybe NOT loose 90-100 pts?

MSU is ALL OR NOTHING tactics. My less orthodostic (???) version seems less random and easier to master - still having most of standard MSU advantages.

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Wed Jun 25, 2003 6:58 am
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Highborn
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And I dont advice to use large blocks of infantry with full command groups and all fully-equiped charcters in them, but to slightly increase MSU numbers to add much more flexibilty.

Im playing this way for about eight months and I have lost or drawed only about three times (Im playing 5-7 times a month). I often score a minor or solid victory - not massacre, but my opponents aren't dumb you know. I fight mostly against Chaos, Orcs&Goblins, Lizardmen, Vampire Counts and sometimes Dwarves.

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Wed Jun 25, 2003 7:09 am
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Kudos to you for starting an article such as this. I would like to add a couple of points though.

1. About unit size - Langmann is part on board with you here about larger units, he will very often back up an MSU list with a single infantry block of around 15 -16 with standard for just the reason stated by yourself. I think that is very much a personal preference thing, what ever makes you feel comfortable against that opponent.

2. Unit ranking - you have left out a very important principle here, that of maximising attacks. Malekithau's original point here was that maximising the number of attacks in a combat situation was worth more to Elves than additional ranks. Out of that came the principle of having more, smaller units.

To maximise the number of attacks you need to have a wider frontage, therefore my MSU infantry blocks are always deployed minimum 6 wide at the front. Executioners are often deployed 7 wide if the General is with them - particularly against Chaos / Dwarves etc. Or against big Orc blocks.

3. Maximising the effect of MSU - there are 2 areas which need to be exploited to their fullest potential. The first is movement, getting your troops into position for the all important multiple charges. I can't stress the importance of DRs here enough. You must have IMO. And get them round behind the enemy as soon as you can. If it doesn't cause him to break up his army and offer you his flanks for infantry charges it will leave his rear exposed for charges.

The second is getting the most out of the maximised number of attacks. Choose units with multiple attacks - Corsairs / Witch Elves and Harpies. Magic weapons like the Web of Shadows or the Blade of Ruin and of course the Hydra Banner if you are going to take a BSB. Then back these attacks up the the Cauldron of Blood.

Yes, the Cauldron. Much , much better now with the new range of Red Fury. Re-rolling missed wounds is devstating to an army when it is already being hit my multiple units all with multiple attacks.

4. Loss of models - this is part of the MSU tactic. You bait him with lesser value troops and they die whilst lining him up for the counter charges. Something to live with really.


Wed Jun 25, 2003 8:02 am
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Highborn
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Thank you for your input Dark Alliance, as it is always welcome.
Your points are good, but anyway I want to discuss them with you.

1. I agree. Nothing to add.

2. Unit ranking. That is the MAIN point of Advanced MSU - flexibility. When choosing 12 models instead of 10 you get the option for 3 ranks, so you either have 6+1 A and 2 rows or 4+1 A and 3 rows. Note, that larger frontage is good only against troops worse than yours. Against Chaos Warriors or Saurus with Spears you want to have as small frontage as possible and win by ranks and outnumber, because S3 does nothing against those T4 AS3+/4+ monsters. Same for dwarves. Not always you get your "elite" troops (as Executioners) fight most dangerous opponents. Sometimes they just got blown away by nasty fireball or sth. like that. I like to have a back-up plan.
Of course you can allways try to lure those units off the board, but not every general falls into that trap. What then? Slaughter. And there is another thing: when I roll "to-hit on 3+" with 6 dices I get 2.. 3 hits at best. That is why I dont win my games by slaying my enemies (Im kind of famous in my group for that - 3 RBT dealing 0 (zero) wounds in two games - all me). I think that the combined ranks-and-MSU (Advanced MSU) tactics is more stable and idiot-proof.

3. Dark Riders are a must in every Druchii army. I agree in 100%.

Couldron - Yes. I must make some army with it. It looks like the best "DE magic item" for a silly 200 pts and Rare slot you get sth. that affects all your army. much better then a BSB with Banner of Naggarythe.

4. Its the part I dont like the most. I use hit and run tactics all the time, but I cant push myself to run and die idea. Even when it brings some greater good. With my luck Im sure that the Panic spread from that action would route my entire army. Like I said its just me.

Besides there is nothing stopping you from using one or two "bait" units in Advanced MSU.


P.S.
Quote:
Kudos to you for starting an article such as this.

Is it good or bad? Im not so good with english.

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the moon has now eclypsed the sun
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the time has come for bitter things"
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Last edited by Maelis on Sun Nov 16, 2003 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Jun 25, 2003 9:00 am
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Maelis wrote:
And there is another thing: when I roll "to-hit on 3+" with 6 dices I get 2.. 3 hits at best. That is why I dont win my games by slaying my .


Malekithau's original point when he started all this. Negate this problem by maximising attacks.

lol !lol! - 'kudos' means praise / well done.

The article you wrote is very much from a personal perspective. The loss of models for example, very much a psychological thing you have to deal with inside your own mind. I lost 5 units last night before I turned the game against Chaos to my advantage. A year ago that would have bothered me, no longer as I look to the greater good that the loss of those units gave me by forcing his units into positions I wanted them in.

The unit ranking thing - again your personal experiences. I agree you are dealing with this in the manner you see best, a back up plan is the right thing to do so no disagreement with you there at all. However, try the whole thing with the Cauldron in your army and see how much of a difference it makes. Almost like having a third or a half more attacks! Should help to make up for your bad dice rolls ;)

Look at my army list ' MSU / Revision / Cauldron' and see what it did for me last night.

I still have many other armies to play with this tactic. Beastmen and Lizards I think will be particularly difficult, as well as the rats of course! :evil: But, it's looking good at the moment.


Wed Jun 25, 2003 9:31 am
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Highborn
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Maximizing attack = maximizing 1s I roll = maximizing my frustration LOL

Yup, I tried to apprach the MSU thing from my point of view to explain it the best I can - as I see it.

I can get over loosing models. I just cant accapt loosing them in this way. Fleeing my unit in enemy charge range, to make him move full distance as Grogsnot noted is a waste of unit in my oppion (and I can always find a task for such unit other then getting simply killed). I never had to use such trick, but I dont say I would never do that for the greater good.

Its just I dont like it as common day tactic. "Elvish cannon fodder"? In Naggaroth, when we lack the elves so much? Its unfluffy. 1 Druchi is worth 100 slaves, so 'till we get a slave unit Im not going to use it as my default tactic.

In your first 2000 MSU list (the one you recomended me to read) you didnt used any "bait" units. And I liked it.
If I was going to use spears I would field 12-16 of them with shields and full CMG to use them as cheap +4 CR.

Couldron of Blood is wicked!
(if only it would stop giving me more 1s... with 2-3 hits I got one "1" in "to-wound roll" - with CoB I can get 2 or even 3! grrr...) :lol:


Im glad you "praise / well done" my article :D

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Wed Jun 25, 2003 9:58 am
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Maelis wrote:
2. Unit ranking. That is the MAIN point of Advanced MSU - flexibility. When choosing 12 models instead of 10 you get the option for 3 ranks, so you either have 6+1 A and 2 rows or 4+1 A and 3 rows. Note, that larger frontage is good only against troops worse than yours. Against Chaos Warriors or Saurus with Spears you want to have as small frontage as possible and win by ranks and outnumber, because S3 does nothing against those T4 AS3+/4+ monsters. Same for dwarves. Not always you get your "elite" troops (as Executioners) fight most dangerous opponents. Sometimes they just got blown away by nasty fireball or sth. like that. I like to have a back-up plan.


I have this feeling that Maelis is kinda right on this one. I personally would (if I had the points), 12 models over 10 as Maelis suggested. Although if your elite troops actually got blown away by a fireball, what's stopping your 'backup' warriors from being blown away as well. Pitched battles are 6 turns, often if your plan doesn't work, there usually isn't any time for a 'backup' plan to work. However, i still feel MORE units = more robust. 16/unit is kinda overdoing it and goes against the main idea.

Maelis wrote:
[Of course you can allways try to lure those units off the board, but not every general falls into that trap. What then? Slaughter.


This is why MSU works. The multiple units cover and threaten every single Tapproach to your army. Combined with an appropriate amount of shooting/magic, this forces the opponents into your traps. There is simply NO way around your units. The opponent isn't lured, but is forced in instead.

Maelis wrote:
Couldron - Yes. I must make some army with it. It looks like the best "DE magic item" for a silly 200 pts and Rare slot you get sth. that affects all your army. much better then a BSB with Banner of Naggarythe.


Yeah, after reading DA's success, I'm highly encouraged to find a way to fit it in.


Good work, got me thinking about my army list.

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Wed Jun 25, 2003 2:10 pm
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Maelis wrote:
Against Chaos Warriors or Saurus with Spears you want to have as small frontage as possible and win by ranks and outnumber,


I beat these with flank charges instead. I personally think it works better, is more cost effective, and more satisfying to implement.

Maelis wrote:
Its the part I dont like the most. I use hit and run tactics all the time, but I cant push myself to run and die idea. Even when it brings some greater good. With my luck Im sure that the Panic spread from that action would route my entire army. Like I said its just me.


On LD 9 or greater, you are very unlikely to panic. And keep in mind that the army book specifically mentions that Dark Elf commanders are not afraid of sacraficing some of their troops if it can accomplish victory for them. If they died, it was because they were weak... :twisted:

Read in the sticky thread up top how my sacrafice of Spearmen won me a game yesterday.

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Wed Jun 25, 2003 3:25 pm
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Maelis wrote:
I can get over loosing models. I just cant accapt loosing them in this way. Fleeing my unit in enemy charge range, to make him move full distance as Grogsnot noted is a waste of unit in my oppion (and I can always find a task for such unit other then getting simply killed).


If my 85pt Spearmen unit dying gives me the chance to kill a 300+pt unit, it is absolutely worth it. Last night I killed an 800pt unit by sacraficing my dinky 85pt ten man Spearelf unit. If you think that is a waste, that I simply don't know what to say. I admit that this is an extreme example, but it shows the potential of the tactic. That unit served Khaine well in my mind. :twisted:


Maelis wrote:
Its just I dont like it as common day tactic. "Elvish cannon fodder"? In Naggaroth, when we lack the elves so much? Its unfluffy.


I don't agree at all. As I have mentioned, this is completely in character of Dark Elves. And as I have also said, if they died, it was because they were weak. Reread all the fluff from your army book and you'll see what I mean...

Maelis wrote:
Couldron of Blood is wicked!
(if only it would stop giving me more 1s... with 2-3 hits I got one "1" in "to-wound roll" - with CoB I can get 2 or even 3! grrr...) :lol:


Since you seem to roll so poorly, I would think the Cauldron would be perfect for you. :P

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Wed Jun 25, 2003 3:39 pm
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I beat these with flank charges instead. I personally think it works better, is more cost effective, and more satisfying to implement.

Last time Ive flank charged 12 Chaos Warriors with Character in 2 rows with Dark Riders and 10 Corsairs with Noble into front I got beaten and runned down :(
Dark Riders dealt no wounds but lost two models. Corsairs dealt one wound and Noble one. Warriors dealt two wounds and his Character two more. He had standard - I didnt. I failed break test and he got my Corsairs.
Score = Killed character, Wiped unit and badly wounded Dark Riders. IF I had sacrifice 85 pts unit to do this... Nah.. So much for MSU - I had 2:1 unit advantage and so what?

Luckly for me two Doombolts shashed that unit (Sorceresses were late, because they had to deal with two Chaos Knights units and some pesky Furies). The rest was done by returning Cold Ones. But what if I rolled other spells? Or rolled miscast?

Like Malekithau worte - "Cant beat hordes? Try this...".
MSU is NOT good against Elite WELL COMPOSED armies.


OK, I can agree on sacrificing units. But is it realy necessary? I must tell you that wooping those 800 pts with Slann was lucky, as I always leave such units on their own and win battles anyway. Stubborn S4 T4 with good AS is hard.

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Thu Jun 26, 2003 7:20 am
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Personally I would never charge DRs into Chosen Knights or Warriors. I learnt the hard way that they are the easy targets for the enemy to get his combat res from.

Remember, if he wins the combat and it it a multi unit charge by you, assuming all your units break he gets the choice of which to chase. So, he directs his kills against your weakest unit, wins, yet chases and runs down the strongest - be aware of this people.

I do however agree wholeheartely with Grog'. The way to beat them is in the flank, just need the right unit to do it with.


Thu Jun 26, 2003 7:55 am
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kennethloh:
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This is why MSU works. The multiple units cover and threaten every single Tapproach to your army. Combined with an appropriate amount of shooting/magic, this forces the opponents into your traps. There is simply NO way around your units. The opponent isn't lured, but is forced in instead.


I must not agree. Strong enemy flank can be devastating. Same for tight formatio with no room for Flank Charges. You cant asume that the other general is stupid or will sit back and enjoy watching your play. He also has a plans and dirty tricks.

If enemy general is owrth his salt he will stirke your units one by one dealing with them as alone they are no threat at all. Enemy cavalery is great at it. Two units can wipe all MSU army (charge the main unt and the flanking one and win as both are very weak alone - then rinse-repeat).

You can say: elite enemy units dont have expensive targets to earn their points back, but then - do you expect them to stand still because of that? No. They will rip your lines unit by unit and even if they dont earn their points back, they will blow a hole in your defence for his cheaper troops to get in.

I must state again: MSU is very risky tactic.

I dont want to cast judgments in a hurry, but I think it works against weaker generals, or is one-use tactic. There is so many ways to defnd against it, that constat use of this tactic is quite hazzardus.


I am consulitng my tactics with my friend who plays Chaos and we test our ideas in many mini-games. Belive me - its easier to write something than to make it work in battle.


Anyway - thank you guys for your input. I hope for more.

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Last edited by Maelis on Thu Jun 26, 2003 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Jun 26, 2003 8:11 am
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Personally I would never charge DRs into Chosen Knights or Warriors. I learnt the hard way that they are the easy targets for the enemy to get his combat res from.


They were NOT Chosen. "Simple" core warriors ;)

I couldnt use Executioners on them as they were busy dealing with remains of his cavalry units ("simple" core knights ;) ).
This points the main flaw. We are limited on our elites, so they can't be everwhere at once. And Elite armies have more than one or two dangerous units. There are planty of them! Chaos Warriors, Knights, Silver Helms, Pistoleters, Empire Knights, Saurus Warriors, Temple Guards. How you want to counter them with 2 or even 3 10 strong spearelves units?

Our elites are limited as I said, and so is their use:
- try to make a flank charge with Witch Elves - their frenzy pulls them all over the board wherever opponent wants them - not you.
- Executioners die when charged
- COs go stupid

And when you need your elite hammer - it isnt there. MSU Core troops cant do anything against better opponents without support.


(im affraid that the hated Asur could do better with MSU strategy - their elites are more reliable, and core troops more versatile)

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Thu Jun 26, 2003 8:24 am
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Maelis wrote:
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Personally I would never charge DRs into Chosen Knights or Warriors. I learnt the hard way that they are the easy targets for the enemy to get his combat res from.


They were NOT Chosen. "Simple" core warriors ;)

ok


I couldnt use Executioners on them as they were busy dealing with remains of his cavalry units ("simple" core knights ;) ).
This points the main flaw. We are limited on our elites, so they can't be everwhere at once. And Elite armies have more than one or two dangerous units. There are planty of them! Chaos Warriors, Knights, Silver Helms, Pistoleters, Empire Knights, Saurus Warriors, Temple Guards. How you want to counter them with 2 or even 3 10 strong spearelves units?

The spearelves are not really there to counter them, merely to distract, bait or hold them up. I have had absolutley no problem dealing with Chaos armies so far. When I deploy I place my units according to how I want to fight the game and not how my opponent wants to. The DRs and Shades or Harpies are there to start pulling him in the directions I want him to go while my Infantry blocks line up.

Each unit of core, or pair of core units, is backed up with the neccessary DE elite I intend to use to do the damage. Then the surprise attacks come in from the light units which have previously been distracting him.


Our elites are limited as I said, and so is their use:
- try to make a flank charge with Witch Elves - their frenzy pulls them all over the board wherever opponent wants them - not you.

Disagree completely on this one, I keep a unit deployed directly in front of mine, thus negating the compulsory charge. In most cases they go in when I want them too and not before.

- Executioners die when charged

Again, down to deployment. Which I know you will argue with and I accept that shielding units get killed, but it depends which shielding unit you use as to when they die, thus allowing the Exe's to charge.


- COs go stupid

Fact of the army. Gav gave us two for one chariots as a way of mitigating this. Have you tried using 2 chariots instead of 8 knights? Put a character in one or both. Very effective.

And when you need your elite hammer - it isnt there. MSU Core troops cant do anything against better opponents without support.


(im affraid that the hated Asur could do better with MSU strategy - their elites are more reliable, and core troops more versatile)


Sorry, completely disagree with the Asur point. I reckon they could use it but not any better than we.


You seem to be a little negged out on this all of a sudden, any reason why or am I just misreading you? :?


Thu Jun 26, 2003 9:11 am
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You seem to be a little negged out on this all of a sudden, any reason why or am I just misreading you?


Ooops! Sorry. :oops: I didnt wanted it to sound that way.
I think its time for my moring tea, as work gets me depressed :roll:

I just think that people go too hype on the MSU, not knowing the risk or consequences. Ive seen lists consisting of 7-8 spearelves unit and 2-3 Dark Riders - I just dont see how such army could win. I think its because of misunderstanding the MSU intention - they just go for MAX numer of MIN units.

The "falnk charge" not always solves all problems - first its sometimes imposible to do, sometimes you give enemy more CR by charging in the flank than staying behind and doing nothing.

Balance, balance, balance. Its all about balance :)


And I had some troubles with Witch Elves lately, for example Necromancer popping a unit of skellies in front of them, then flank charging, and Chaos Marauders pulling them out of my battle line then smashing with Warriors. I won by minor vicotry in both cases, but Witch Elves performed badly.

And I realy think that Asur could do it better :? Their troops are more reliable (no frenzy, stupidity, strike-last). :| MSU requires "perfect" handling against advanced generals and failed stupidity or sth like it can ruin your day. MSU lists are just very unforgiving - if you let enemy in - he will rip you pice by pice from the inside. Chaos Furies are great at doing this against MSU - flying, outnumber-fear, pursuir, then 360' charge range.

Sorry for being so negative, but I think there shuld be somebody to point flaws in this new tactics as some lists become ridiculous with it.
I belive it could be better and more stable if we work on it for a while, not taking Malekithau words as the only truth (he did great job, but not necessarly is tottaly right). I acting a bit like devils advocate, but... someone have to :twisted:

That is why I am happy for this discussion, as it reveals the pros and cons of using this tactic :D


(Oh, and sorry for sticking to the Chaos so much, but I was working with my friend on this list I have mentioned before and we thinked a bit about countering MSU with it.)

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Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:06 am
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