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Advanced MSU -> the RUN (also a guide for beginners) 
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Morathi's Favoured
Morathi's Favoured

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I agree with Sugar there. There is no point arguing or falling out. We all seem to be winning with our own variation of the basic principle whether MSU or MSE. I think we have all proved it can win games.

Grog, Sugar and I are all very positive and optimistic about this, Maelis you do seem to be a little pessimistic but hey, we're all friends right? As I keep saying, this is the freshest tactical concept I have come across since my time playing Warhammer began. Sure there are drawbacks, but as Langmann once pointed out - if there was one surefire way to win every game it would be pretty damn boring. :D


Fri Jun 27, 2003 5:56 pm
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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Maelis wrote:
I can get over loosing models. I just cant accapt loosing them in this way. ...

Its just I dont like it as common day tactic. "Elvish cannon fodder"? In Naggaroth, when we lack the elves so much? Its unfluffy. 1 Druchi is worth 100 slaves, so 'till we get a slave unit Im not going to use it as my default tactic.


That is wrong, it is fluffy. Read your DE army book. I can think of three places which speaks of sacrificing troops for the win.

That is part of being fascist. DE are fascists, and as such sacrifice for the greater good. (Which happens to be the lords greater good ;) ).

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Fri Jun 27, 2003 6:08 pm
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The Aspect of Murder
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Dark Alliance wrote:
I agree with Sugar there. There is no point arguing or falling out. We all seem to be winning with our own variation of the basic principle whether MSU or MSE. I think we have all proved it can win games.

Grog, Sugar and I are all very positive and optimistic about this, Maelis you do seem to be a little pessimistic but hey, we're all friends right? As I keep saying, this is the freshest tactical concept I have come across since my time playing Warhammer began. Sure there are drawbacks, but as Langmann once pointed out - if there was one surefire way to win every game it would be pretty damn boring. :D


I admit I was a bit frustrated, but hardly do I hold any ill will over this. I am actually starting to see what Maelis is getting at. A modified version of MSU principles. I guess my thick, greenskin skull couldn't realize this at first. :P

As always, oh great one, your wisdom shines through the fog... :P

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Fri Jun 27, 2003 6:13 pm
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The Aspect of Murder
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langmann wrote:
That is wrong, it is fluffy. Read your DE army book. I can think of three places which speaks of sacrificing troops for the win.

That is part of being fascist. DE are fascists, and as such sacrifice for the greater good. (Which happens to be the lords greater good ;) ).


Exactly, just read the entry under Dark Elf Warriors at the beginning of the army book where it describes the fluff of each unit. It clearly says that they are expendable if need be.

Nice... :P

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Fri Jun 27, 2003 6:15 pm
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Highborn
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langmann wrote:
That is wrong, it is fluffy. Read your DE army book. I can think of three places which speaks of sacrificing troops for the win.

That is part of being fascist. DE are fascists, and as such sacrifice for the greater good. (Which happens to be the lords greater good ).


Exactly, just read the entry under Dark Elf Warriors at the beginning of the army book where it describes the fluff of each unit. It clearly says that they are expendable if need be.


That is why my units are named:
12 Corsairs : "The Care-Bears"
5 Dark Riders: "My beutifull Ponnies"
10 Executioners: "The Smurfs"
and my sorceress is is called "Snowhite" ;)
(joke)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Im just too attached to my minis :P

Im glad that you shared your oppinions with me - I changed my view a bit, and I hope I had some influence on yours.

And Im REALY not a pessimist... I just wanted to point out flaws in MSU lists, as at the time when I was writting my article there were zillion posts about how great is MSU and none with downsides. And note that I only wanted to present you something what I think is a bit more Advaced/Versatile/Reliable variant of MSU.

Besides if I would wrote: MSU is great and stop thinking about anything else that would be a BIG back-step as we need to improove our tactics all the time and my post was a good occassion to discuss some things (I love to discuss with other gamers, even if I dont agree with them, as its always extending my view).

So again - thank you all for your input and oppinions abd I hope for more.

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Mon Jun 30, 2003 7:36 am
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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@Maelis and all:


Yes, it's good to always question things. I am of the opinion (after some games against specifically shooty lists) that against certain armies with excellent shooting the MSU isn't so perfect. If you have to take a lot of panic tests, make sure your lord is around, and with MSU you kind of need to spread out so your lord may not always extend leadership...

Also against heavy cavalry MSU armies it is also hard to win.

But I think it is a good strategy, even if you are only playing MSE and using spearmen for ranks.

But people have also been winning with the normal way of playing. Let's not forget that as well! Remember WoP just won the London Conflict with a "normal" list.

MSU just offers people a new form of strategy. Even if you play a variation of that, with some small units and some big ones, I think it will work out alright. :D

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Mon Jun 30, 2003 10:59 pm
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Grogsnot:

Let me put it to you this way.

Why should a unit of Chaos warriors led by a Tzeench hero EVER bother charging 10 DE spearmen with no standard or shields? Even a combined charge by several such units into flanks is probably going to lose, and in the meantime he can fry you with magic. In any case, doesn't he have warhounds or Marauder horsemen for this? Aren't you just using your spearmen as a slower, cheaper, less capable Dark Rider subsistute?

And like every light infantry army since the dawn of time, aren't you strong against heavy infantry, about even against heavy cavalry, and weak against light horse?

I'm glad yr winning, but I'd hate to serve in yr army.

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Mon Jun 30, 2003 11:42 pm
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Again I have to agree with GoriceXII...

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Tue Jul 01, 2003 6:55 am
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The Aspect of Murder
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GoriceXII wrote:
Why should a unit of Chaos warriors led by a Tzeench hero EVER bother charging 10 DE spearmen with no standard or shields?


What else are they going to do? Walk around them? I march them up 1" away. He has to do something about them. If he magics them, that is fine too because I don't care if he magics them.

GoriceXII wrote:
Even a combined charge by several such units into flanks is probably going to lose.


I don't agree with this at all. When my Executioners/COK, Dark Riders, and Corsairs charge he will lose. Do the math and you will see.

GoriceXII wrote:
In any case, doesn't he have warhounds or Marauder horsemen for this?


My RXB Warriors, RBT, Shades, Dark Riders, and Harpies are neutralizing these guys ASAP. They are my #1 target, as they are the only thing that contests my domination of the movement phase (which is how MSU wins)

GoriceXII wrote:
Aren't you just using your spearmen as a slower, cheaper, less capable Dark Rider subsistute?


No, because the Spearmen offer more wounds, a rank, and more fighting capability on the defense. The two units are completely different from one another, and I am not sure why you are even comparing the two.

GoriceXII wrote:
And like every light infantry army since the dawn of time, aren't you strong against heavy infantry, about even against heavy cavalry, and weak against light horse?


As mentioned above, light horse is my #1 target, and I have enough of my own, of a superior capability, that I can dominate my enemy's.

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Tue Jul 01, 2003 2:16 pm
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Morathi's Favoured
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GoriceXII wrote:
Grogsnot:

Let me put it to you this way.

Why should a unit of Chaos warriors led by a Tzeench hero EVER bother charging 10 DE spearmen with no standard or shields?

If you march the unit of spears up to within 1" of this unit his options are - 1. Charge ( you defend in two ranks and may just hold, either way you flank in the following turn )
2. He ignores you, the unit has limited movement due to the close proximity of your unit. You flank and front charge him next turn.
3. The wizard stays in the unit, his LOS is greatly reduced due to the close proximity of your unit. So?
4. The wizard leaves the unit, and thus becomes vulnerable in your next movement phase from charges, magic or shooting.

So why would he not charge?


Even a combined charge by several such units into flanks is probably going to lose, and in the meantime he can fry you with magic. In any case, doesn't he have warhounds or Marauder horsemen for this?

As Grog said, expect these to die in turn 1 from rxb fire.

Aren't you just using your spearmen as a slower, cheaper, less capable Dark Rider subsistute?

And like every light infantry army since the dawn of time, aren't you strong against heavy infantry, about even against heavy cavalry, and weak against light horse?

I'm glad yr winning, but I'd hate to serve in yr army.


I don't think you like this tactic at all. But it works.


Tue Jul 01, 2003 4:48 pm
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Dark Alliance wrote:

I don't think you like this tactic at all. But it works.



well said.

:-)


Tue Jul 01, 2003 4:58 pm
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I'm sorry guys. I was tired and cranky. And like Maelis have been rolling really badly for the last few games. This can have a nasty effect on your judgement.

I would, however, be very surprised if all 24 of my DR are knocked out in turn 1 by RXBs against an MSU army. I know how well my RXB warriors do. I most certainly would never count on knocking enemy fast troops out completely in the first turn.

I'm really not convinced about the worth of the small warrior units over the DR. I don't see how they are that different in function. I use them both as light combat units. The DR are more vulnerable to missile attrition, but strike further and hit harder. I should point out that yes, I do give my DR squadrons standards, so starting combat resolution is the same as the small warrior units.

I don't see how "more fighting ability on the defence" is that important most of the time, since the warrior unit will still get pulped most of the time, and the DR can just flee anyway. I will admit there are plenty of times when this may not be wise.

So why would the Tzeench chap not charge? Because he can sit back and fry us with his 15 power dice possibly? I admit this is a sad tactic, but people do do it.

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Wed Jul 02, 2003 11:28 am
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Morathi's Favoured
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I too would be surprised if all 24 DRs got taken out in one turn. But you are more likely to face other races than other DEs..

As we have the best fast cavalry I rarely see, and I do mean rarely, see other armies with as many fast cavalry as we do. Most Chaos armies will field 1, possibly 2 units of Marauder Horsemen and a unit of screamers or Furies. So in reality you have very little to try and take out in one turn. And they don't have to be completely destroyed, just weakened so the threat is minimal. Assuming they pass any panic test.

Read my points again about the Tzeentch wizard. If he doesn't charge he severely limits his options :D


Wed Jul 02, 2003 11:54 am
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The Aspect of Murder
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GoriceXII wrote:
So why would the Tzeench chap not charge? Because he can sit back and fry us with his 15 power dice possibly? I admit this is a sad tactic, but people do do it.


Yeah, he can fry the Spearman unit right in front of him or leave the unit and expose himself to my small, mobile units the following turn. Either way, it is not a great option for him.

All done with a unit that can cost as little as 70pts.

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Wed Jul 02, 2003 1:30 pm
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My real problem is that with the above posts I was factoring the ability of certain people to roll incredibly tinny dice into the equation. And this I should not do.

It occurs to me as well that I face a lot of things and situations on a regular basis that are dealt with very efficiently by a simple rank bonus. The Chaos players love spawn and chariots and the wood elves field every wardancer, dryad, and treeman they can get their hands on. They also like to put a lot of random terrain on the table when fighting me, so options for these cunning little outflankings are often quite limited. I'm not saying the small units can't do well anyway. I actually think the MSU strategy has some strengths that haven't been mentioned yet. However, all these enemy units can be broken like straw by a ranked unit (OK, maybe not the spawn) while posing a serious threat to a small one. Or even multiple small ones.

Now that we actually can get a ranked unit at a cost that's not a rip, it seems a shame to abandon the tactic altogether.

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Sat Jul 05, 2003 12:52 am
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Highborn
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Thats why I like to combine MSU with one or two (mostly one) 15 strong infantry. That gives me some strenght against monsters and other disruptive units that Gorice has mentioned.

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Wed Jul 09, 2003 3:27 pm
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That use your variation on it, and bring mostly 15 Strong units. The point of discussing tatics with people is to discover something your comfortable using and have enertaining games with. That usually means modifiy a tatic to your personal style of play.

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Wed Jul 09, 2003 6:22 pm
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as to the shooting/magic problem, i think that heavy magic works very well for MSU. multiple mages with dark magic and mounts can shut down both enemy magic and enemy shooting, which are some of the most dangerous things a MSU army will face. chillwind is an invaluable spell.

alternatively, you could use shadow magic, which will also protect you from magic, but has unseen lurker in it (one of the best spells in the game)

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Wed Jul 09, 2003 8:40 pm
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Can anyone tell me how they use Witch Elves? I find that my opponent lures them out for some sound thumping before they can do anything. Frenzy is too easy to abuse.

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Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:50 am
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The Aspect of Murder
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Com_Azreal wrote:
Can anyone tell me how they use Witch Elves? I find that my opponent lures them out for some sound thumping before they can do anything. Frenzy is too easy to abuse.


Screen them with 10-12 man Spear or Corsair units

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Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:03 pm
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Highborn
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I found that Standard is sometimes BETTER that champion in MSU units.

And another argument for MSU weakness against ELITE armies:
Its hard to win by 3 or more pts in first round of combat with elite armies. And their HIGH LD makes them almost always stay in combat. In next turns we have less and less models, and its easier to break our tied in comabt MSU units.

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Mon Nov 03, 2003 5:27 pm
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OK, I'll start by saying I'm rather new to this list, so I'm not quite sure what MSU stands for (I'm guessing Multiple Small Units or similar), but I always use units of 15 for foot troops, 5 for Dark Riders and 8 for Cold Ones. Partly because it's easier due to the way they're sold :lol: I find it works quite well this way as the base size allows 3 ranks of 5 on a movement tray, giving a good mix of depth and fighting models. Certainly for the elite units (Executioners in particular) I would never consider using less. Even with the new heavy armour, they just die too quickly to shooting. I can just about see it working with Corsairs, but SpearElves, especially now they're cheaper should be, to my mind at least, used in a large block to bolster rank bonuses.
Surely Dark Riders make better bait units, since fast cavalry get to roll 3 dice to flee, and can move on the turn they rally (if they chose to flee) and therefore get back into the fight quicker. Plus they're more manoeuverable and can be set up to deflect an enemy, or lure them directly into your trap.
If anyone could explain this to me or point out any mistakes in this reasoning, I'd be grateful. :D

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Mon Nov 03, 2003 11:20 pm
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Heres a request- On thursday I plan on attacking Empire in the campaign I am in. What should I use? I could use a 2000 point list, as well as a 2200 point option list in case I get a supporting 200 points. I am including what I have-

Highborn/High Sorceress on Pegasus
Highborn on Cold One
Highborn/Noble/Herald on Dark Steed
Highborn on Black Dragon
2 Sorceress on foot
1 Sorceress on Dark Steed
10 Dark Riders
10 Executioners
12 Witches
14 Shades
30 Spearmen
25 Warriors with rxb's
7 Cold One Knights
2 Cold One Chariots
1 War Hydra(or Spellthirster)
2 Beastmasters on foot
2 Reaper Bolt Throwers
12 Corsairs
1 Assassin


Maybe a couple more odd things, but those are what come to mind

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Tue Nov 04, 2003 2:08 am
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Thank u so much! ur advice has helped me alot (and led to my 1st victory)!!!!!!! thanks :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:15 am
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Noble

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No suggestions? Oh well....

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Wed Nov 05, 2003 9:25 pm
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