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MSU / MSE - some observations and game experiences
http://www.druchii.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8618
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Author:  Dark Alliance [ Wed Jul 02, 2003 12:01 pm ]
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Interesting stuff Kel'.

I agree with you in that race on race should pretty much be draws or minor wins most of the time, with two equally matched opponents. The MSU tactic works well and so does the all Cavalry and the conventional lists in the hands of a competent general.

We just have more variety now and as you say, once the Revision is in print I too think that these list will settle down to a Hybrid version of whichever combination suits your situation.

Author:  Dark Alliance [ Fri Jul 04, 2003 9:55 pm ]
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One enhancement I did forget to mention was the Lore of Shadow.

I have found that with the use of this tactic any way to make the movement phase any more crucial, or lethal has to be a good thing. Steed of Shadows can help to ensure your general is in the right place at the right time as most players will normally let this spell go through - until you charge with it! And Unseen Lurker is just awesome, harder to cast on a 10+ but well worth the effort.

Author:  Grogsnotpowwabomba [ Sat Jul 05, 2003 12:07 am ]
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Dark Alliance wrote:
I have found that with the use of this tactic any way to make the movement phase any more crucial, or lethal has to be a good thing. Steed of Shadows can help to ensure your general is in the right place at the right time as most players will normally let this spell go through - until you charge with it!


This is very true. I often mage hunt with this spell to great effect. Steed of Shadows in conjunction with Lifetaker almost guaruntees a dead mage. Its good for killing those retarded Heavens Sniper Wizards.

Dark Alliance wrote:
And Unseen Lurker is just awesome, harder to cast on a 10+ but well worth the effort.


Indeed. I think that Movement spells are the most powerful in the game in the hands of a good general. Especially with an MSU list, where the Movement phase is so crucial. I think at least one Shadow mage is mandatory for MSU...

Author:  Kaleth [ Sat Jul 05, 2003 8:38 am ]
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I do completely agree. Unseen Lurker is a potential game winner, especially in conjunction with MSU. Steed of Shadows, well, bye bye lonesome mage ;) .

Author:  Sugacapra [ Sat Jul 05, 2003 10:26 am ]
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true... unseen lurker can have devastatin effect on enemy... a question for all both:
can i cast unseen lurker more than one time on the same unit during a magic phase? (using multiple mages?)

cause yesterday me and my chaos friend prepare a army list of chaos where some gor and ungor take place...he will use that damn staff that give him "unseen lurker" automatically and give him to a lvl1 mage,
he told me that he try to have a lvl4 mage,a lvl 1 mage shadow with 2 spells(spell familiar), and the shaman with that damn staff...
he ask me if he can move a unit 2 time in the same magic turn... i found no rules that say he cant... i'm feeling sad.. :-(
can he?

Author:  Iron_panther [ Sat Jul 05, 2003 11:02 am ]
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Get some multible shadow mages for yourself. If that rule apply to him it apply to you as well ;). Sounds unlikely though... there oughta be a rule who says you can't magic move twice.

Author:  Dark Alliance [ Sat Jul 05, 2003 2:30 pm ]
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@ sugacapra : yes you can apply a spell, even the same spell if 2 different Sorceresses have it, on the same unit in the same turn.

I do it all the time with Lore of Shadow.

Author:  Alkair [ Wed Jul 09, 2003 3:33 am ]
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Excellent article and very good discussion. I long to read about the results of the 'conventional' vs 'MSU' armies battle.

Author:  Tarrath [ Wed Jul 09, 2003 4:33 am ]
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here's a question-how would a good MSU army respond to an all-mounted tomb kings army? i've played against my friends list proxied to try it out, it's built around units of chariots, with fast skeleton cav, tomb scorpions and bone giants( :shock: ) in support. he plays with heavy magic as well.

the first game i lost when i failed to dispel an incantation of urgency that got his chariots in combat with my dark riders with sorceress, who then overran into my high sorc and killed her, leaving me with absolutely zero magic defence. in the second game i managed to kill his heirophant , but his hitty stuff stayed together, and i didn't have any units left that could get to the objective, everything was stuck on hills where the chariots couldn't get them.

my best ideas so far are to pin his chariots in place with dark riders, and then hit them with witch elves/execs/whatever. i also want to try luring him into terrain with dark riders (that would be fricking evil :twisted: ) any other ideas?

Author:  Sugacapra [ Wed Jul 09, 2003 7:19 am ]
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Dark Alliance wrote:
@ sugacapra : yes you can apply a spell, even the same spell if 2 different Sorceresses have it, on the same unit in the same turn.

I do it all the time with Lore of Shadow.


thanks for the clarify.

So lore of shadow can be a real stick in the ass :twisted:

Author:  Aenarion [ Tue Jul 29, 2003 5:18 pm ]
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sugacapra and da for you advice on msu\mse againste chaos

Author:  Aenarion [ Tue Jul 29, 2003 5:27 pm ]
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Quote:
sugacapra and da for you advice on msu\mse againste chaos

i meant to say thank you sugacapra and da for you advice on msu\mse againste chaos

Author:  Morakin [ Tue Jul 29, 2003 11:12 pm ]
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sorry to ask, but what stands msu and mse for?

bear with me i'm very new to all this.

morakin

Author:  Malekithau [ Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:59 am ]
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Multiple small units or multiple small elites

Author:  Sugacapra [ Wed Jul 30, 2003 1:19 pm ]
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aenarion wrote:
Quote:
sugacapra and da for you advice on msu\mse againste chaos

i meant to say sugacapra and da for you advice on msu\mse againste chaos


Thanks, it was a pleasure to help other (and also be helped) using this kind of tactic... next week i'll try it versus tomb king... any suggest ?

Author:  Ash010110 [ Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:04 pm ]
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I've massacred empire, O&G, and chaos and conventional DE with MSU. I even managed a draw in my favor vs. an imperial steam tank army (the only reason for not getting a victory is b/c I made bad judgment call that cost me my 200pt highborn).

As for shooty and magicky armies. I've found that bumping the "scrub" units to 12 and the "Hammer" units to 15 does the job nicely. Against a shooty and magic-heavy Wood Elf army, I only lost a maximum of 5 models from a unit before melee. Most only lost 2-3. My outlook is to ensure 8-10 models make it to melee. Anything more is a bonus. I've posted the list on the appropriate forum, and since starting this army to test this strategy, I've gone 9:3:2 with it.

The only thing I might add to the discussion is that I've found that 4-5 models in width is better than 5-6. The reason is that they are more likely to maneuver into charge positions, so the tolerance for deployment or movement error is increased. While it does mean I rely on ranks more than attacks, I feel it is better to let the highborn and noble get the kills (I actually use spears as both bait and fighting units) while the troops provide a banner and 1-2 ranks.

As I've told a certain friend of Malekith, any unit over 15 models strong (not counting characters that my join for protection) is simply inefficient. The idea is not to go into combat with full ranks (although I often do so against chaos since they do not shoot), but rather to ensure that you get into combat with at least one rank and lots of attacks. Personally, I've found that to be accomplished with combined charges of 2-3 units that are 4 models wide and include an S5 highborn and an S6 noble. Overkill? Yes. In character for Druchii? Definitely yes.

Finally, to reduce the effectiveness of shooting, I've employed my harpies in front of the main units spread out so unless they have a hill, they have no target. Also, my 10-man bait unit can also stretch out 10x1 to cover. And to make your opponent even more frustrated, I've started fielding a 5-man unit of riders w/o repeaters stretched out in column formation (that's 10" of cover, man!) to totally deny the first shooting phase.

MSU (whether elite or not) is the way to go.

'nuff said.

May peace be with you,
Ash

Author:  Sugacapra [ Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:15 pm ]
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Ash010110 wrote:
I've massacred empire, O&G, and chaos and conventional DE with MSU. I even managed a draw in my favor vs. an imperial steam tank army (the only reason for not getting a victory is b/c I made bad judgment call that cost me my 200pt highborn).



nice to read... i fight usually chaos and find that MSU is the way to go, even slaanesh can't do much versus msu.. instead he put me in difficult before i adopt msu tactics.. :-)


Quote:
As for shooty and magicky armies. I've found that bumping the "scrub" units to
[...]

Finally, to reduce the effectiveness of shooting, I've employed my harpies in front of the main units spread out so unless they have a hill, they have no target. Also, my 10-man bait unit can also stretch out 10x1 to cover. And to make your opponent even more frustrated, I've started fielding a 5-man unit of riders w/o repeaters stretched out in column formation (that's 10" of cover, man!) to totally deny the first shooting phase.

MSU (whether elite or not) is the way to go.


nice the idea of deploying coloumn of dark rider (i've done this with CoK one time.. :-) LOL they screen witches from str3 shots and none die :-))

what i fear is the magic phase of khemri.. they have the ability to gain movement... and deny my rule on movement phase... :-(
also letting his catapult fire twice per turn is a thing that my msu crews cant support... (waagh... the second one is sniping guessing on head of leaders.. :( )

Author:  Ash010110 [ Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  against undead and icky magic

Yes, I too have lots of trouble with the undead with their movement spells. I played against a necromancer army (4 L2s) and lost pretty badly to them. It was all about the multiple dance and vigor spells.

I'm thinking about dropping the tome and cloak from my sorc's in favor of 2 more dispel scrolls. That way I get 5 dice and 4 scrolls. 6 dice on offence and 4 spells is still respectable (once you've killed their wizards) but the extra defense may be worth it.

I'll continue the playtest and let y'all know how it goes.

May peace be with you,
Ash

Author:  Sugacapra [ Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:34 pm ]
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i'll try my inquisition list versus him.. probably i'll be crushed in magic phase.. but hope to do well in others :-)

i'll post my inquisition list on army lists forum :-)

Author:  Ismellcheese [ Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:45 pm ]
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Ash010110 wrote:
I've massacred empire, O&G, and chaos and conventional DE with MSU. I even managed a draw in my favor vs. an imperial steam tank army (the only reason for not getting a victory is b/c I made bad judgment call that cost me my 200pt highborn).


MSU (whether elite or not) is the way to go.

'nuff said.

May peace be with you,
Ash


Hey Ash,
If you wish to test your MSU army against a "RnF" Skaven list let me know as I'm also in the Philly area.

Drop me an email:
ismellcheese@comcast.net

Matthew

Author:  Scactha [ Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:20 pm ]
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I'd like to add an important point to the discussion which is blatantly stolen from Machiaras site: the huge advantage over having multiple small units considering VP's.

As Machiara points out most people surveys the opposing army after setup and makes a mental note where the points are. Big blocks with heroes in front are an obvious choice and so on. 'Now' he argues, 'when you see a cluster of 5 man archers, a couple of eagles and a small number of skirmishers mixed up with the odd wizard or three. What are you going to go after for VP´s?'

Imagine a revisioned DE army with a 10 man X-bow bait line behind which stands say 10-15 more warriors flanked by 10 Excecutioners or Witch elves. This is the basic trapteam of which Machiara talks about and which DA also explains so eloquently.

e.g.

10 xbow + shield = 120

15 warriors + shield = 120

10 Witch elves + full command = 160(Excecs cheaper)


This is 400 points or 1/5 of the usual armyvalue. Yet this simple team is all you need. It's a very good use of the (few) elven advantages but we also have one that's not much thought about: the ability to control the spread of VP's like no others.

Author:  Grogsnotpowwabomba [ Thu Oct 30, 2003 3:34 pm ]
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I agree completely. Ash and I discussed this at length back before MSU was called MSU and it was just a "silly" idea in his head (that later crept its way into mine)

Just last night I played his latest version of an MSU hybrid army with my VC and even with his 15 strong units, I found my Black Knights to be somewhat starved for a good target. It really throws people off, especially when they are used to juicy "uberunits" that they can pound with all of their resources.

Author:  Malekithau [ Fri Oct 31, 2003 8:45 am ]
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Quote:
I'd like to add an important point to the discussion which is blatantly stolen from Machiaras site: the huge advantage over having multiple small units considering VP's.

As Machiara points out most people surveys the opposing army after setup and makes a mental note where the points are. Big blocks with heroes in front are an obvious choice and so on. 'Now' he argues, 'when you see a cluster of 5 man archers, a couple of eagles and a small number of skirmishers mixed up with the odd wizard or three. What are you going to go after for VP´s?'

Imagine a revisioned DE army with a 10 man X-bow bait line behind which stands say 10-15 more warriors flanked by 10 Excecutioners or Witch elves. This is the basic trapteam of which Machiara talks about and which DA also explains so eloquently.

e.g.


Blatantly stolen? Hmm. I take offence at this especially as I have never been to Machiaras site and probably never will as I truly believe WEs are the easist army to win with.

WE tactics are not MSU there are differences whichI can't be bothered pointing out to someone who accuses me of plagiarism.

Author:  Grogsnotpowwabomba [ Fri Oct 31, 2003 3:42 pm ]
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malekithau wrote:
Quote:
I'd like to add an important point to the discussion which is blatantly stolen from Machiaras site: the huge advantage over having multiple small units considering VP's.


Blatantly stolen? Hmm. I take offence at this especially as I have never been to Machiaras site and probably never will as I truly believe WEs are the easist army to win with.

WE tactics are not MSU there are differences whichI can't be bothered pointing out to someone who accuses me of plagiarism.


At first I reacted as you have, but I think Scactha is saying that HE blatantly stole the idea. I am almost certain no harm was intended here.

Author:  Olaf_ironfoot [ Sat Nov 01, 2003 8:53 pm ]
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Okay, I have barely skimmed the surfaces of MSU and I thought I would give it a try. To start off, I played 2 games with my same list against High Elves. This is the list I used
10 Spearelves(nothing added)
10 Spearelves(nothing added)
10 Spearelves(nothing added)
10 Corsairs(Champion)
10 Repeater Crossbow Elves(nothing added)
10 Repeater Crossbow Elves(nothing added)
5 Dark Riders(Standard + Champion)
5 Dark Riders(Standard + Champion)
10 Executioners(Champion)
5 Shades
5 Cold One Knights(Champion)
2 Reapers
Spellthirster
Sorceress(Second Level, Dark Steed, Tome of Furion, Dispel Scroll)
Sorceress(Second Level, Seal of Ghrond, Dispel Scroll)
Highborn(Gauntlet of Power, Crown of Black Iron, Heavy Armor, Shield, SDA)

That should come out to being around 2400 points.

In the first game, I tried with COMPLETELY new tactics then what I have used in the past. All three Spearelves units went fully up, drawing in two units of 15 Silver Helms, and fleeing. At that point I was able to get frontal, side, and rear charges on both units. It was a literal massacre. High Elves surrendered after losing 2 Bolt Throwers, 30 Knights, and a Sorceress, compared to the Dark Elf losses of 2 Shades, a Reaper Crewman, and a Dark Rider.

I was utterly amazed at the effectiveness of the list, and then High Elves challenged me to another match.

This game went differently, with my rolls to hit and wound were horrendous. My Spearelves did an amazing job bringing in his Knights and other soldiers, however my return attacks did nothing. An instance of this would be 2 Chariots charging his Silver Helms, and doing 1 wound. Another problem was that we had to quit as the game store was closing, right as my Hydra and Executioners were about to break his Mage, and a unit of Swordmasters. A problem I have noticed so far is that MSU is very vulnerable to the Comet of Cassandora. At the end of the game, he was awarded a solid victory.

I will try to get more games in today, as I greatly wish to play another game

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