Logo
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:37 am



This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 120 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Army Composition Topics: Redundancy 
Author Message
Warmaster of Slaanesh
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 7:07 pm
Posts: 1516
Location: The Great Maw
Reply with quote
All -

A great discussion in the "Tournament Army Composition" thread - excellent stuff. Several folks brought up the need for Redundancy in an effective army list, so I thought that I'd start up another thread more directly on topic about this very important issue.

Firstly, what is Redundancy?

Simply put, it's having more than one unit capable of doing something - combat, shooting, march-blocking, etc.

So Why is it Necessary?

This is especially critical in so-called "hammer" units (i.e., the units that are designed to "break" your opponent's line). If you put all your eggs in one basket, you have a very nasty "basket." However, you are also very vulnerable to losing said basket - if your big uber-unit is destroyed (or even diverted), your battle plan is sorely compromised.

Example

A perfect example is the huge unit I used to love that consisted of 9 Cold One Knights with Full Command, Banner of Murder and was joined by the Highborn nicely tooled up on a Cold One. Together, this was about 600 points ... roughly 1/3 of my 2000 pt army. When they worked, it was great! When they went stupid ... not so good. As my list evolved, the Cold One Knights were replaced by the much cheaper Cold One Chariots - they actually ended up with more stupidity problems, but hit as hard if not harder than the Knights ... and were only about 1/3 the cost! This spread out the hitting power a bit more and also gave me more units ...

The What ...

So how do you ensure redundancy in your own lists?

Looking forward to hearing your ideas -
Jeff


Mon Jul 28, 2003 4:52 pm
Report this post
Profile
Druchii Archangel
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 22, 2003 5:00 am
Posts: 1699
Location: Somewhere Kicking Butt with DE
Reply with quote
Post 
sometimes you need a contingency plan when one element fails... this is there your "redundancy" comes in...

_________________
Seraphlaw

"HA! What damage can a DRUCHII do?" - Famous Last Words


Mon Jul 28, 2003 5:02 pm
Report this post
Profile
Manipulator of the Masses
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2003 2:38 am
Posts: 3074
Location: A cheery little corner
Reply with quote
Post 
Redundacy can also be cover with units capable of multiple tasks, a clear cut example being Warriors with RBX and Shield. The fight about as well as any of our core choices, have a decent ranged attack, in small numbers a superior mobility to most units, and aren't that expensive for what the accomplish. DRs have the same versitility, though are much more expensive.

_________________
We stand now on the precipice of something monumental and perhaps even capable of boggling the mind in its myriad potentials and possibilities. Try not to drool too much…


Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:16 pm
Report this post
Profile
Morathi's Favoured
Morathi's Favoured

Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:29 pm
Posts: 9728
Location: In the paintshop
Reply with quote
Post 
Somewhat amazed that more people haven't offered their opinions on this.

Or at least asked for more information or ideas....... :?


Tue Jul 29, 2003 12:59 pm
Report this post
Profile
Master of the Red Legion
Master of the Red Legion
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2002 1:06 pm
Posts: 7037
Location: Land of Chill
Reply with quote
Post 
Dark Alliance wrote:
Somewhat amazed that more people haven't offered their opinions on this.

Or at least asked for more information or ideas....... :?


Might be because it needs to be moved to tactics, so I'll do that. :)

Yes, unless you understand you opponent and know his army, redundency is quite important. Most of us likely do it uncontiously while looking for the balanced list and using some of the more versatile units. Others who use the MSU/MSE, have so many units they likely don't need to worry much about this topic. ;) For example, many use dark riders and harpies in their armies, where though both these units do much the same things, they are seen as quite different.

I think where most people lack the redundency that is sometimes necessary is in the heavy attack part of their army. Putting a highborn in a unit of COK (a popular choice and effective) seriously reduces that redundency since now, likely they are not going to get another unit of COK and even then it will lack the punch they are used to. The highborn on manticore (or even dragon) instead, leaves more room available for a second and possily third method of destructive attack.

However, the lack of real redundency in the DE army due to the expense of elves, is greatly evidenced by certain comments that were made about the fragility of elven units. Execs make a great can opener, a great part of heavy attack, but they get got (and still do get sometimes) shot to pieces before they can do any damage. The same goes for the frenzied witch elves, but at least they do not have to take panic tests while so frenzied. So, with those two heavy attack units limited, what is left? COC and hydra, both of which cause their own set of problems.

So, redundency was a bit more difficult than first thought, yes? ;) Not only that, but due to the nature of elven units, keeping redundency is also difficult and often costly, and since our armies are normally smaller than others (exceptions being MSU/MSE for one), redundency is more useful to us since it can become not redundent. One hammer is good, but two will get the job done twice as fast. One fo the reasons for my Vanguard army was the concept of redundency, with four units of DR, some shades and harpies for distraction, misdirection, and hunting, and four RBTs for artillery and at that point actualy attack value along with the dragon made for some good doubling and sometimes tripling up on certain tasks the force would need to complete.

In short, reduncy good! Look for it with versatility! :D

_________________
_
Image
The storm is coming...
Are you ready?


Tue Jul 29, 2003 1:36 pm
Report this post
Profile WWW
Warmaster of Slaanesh
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 7:07 pm
Posts: 1516
Location: The Great Maw
Reply with quote
Post 
Vorchild wrote:
I think where most people lack the redundency that is sometimes necessary is in the heavy attack part of their army. Putting a highborn in a unit of COK (a popular choice and effective) seriously reduces that redundency since now, likely they are not going to get another unit of COK and even then it will lack the punch they are used to. The highborn on manticore (or even dragon) instead, leaves more room available for a second and possily third method of destructive attack.


Excellent point ... DE do definitely lack in redundancy in the heavy attack area. One thing that we must never forget, however, is that you don't have to cause wounds to win combats ... combat resolution is the real key. A unit of Spearmen in the front of a unit of Orc Boyz is unlikely to win - the same unit in the flank is likely to win handily. I suppose what I am saying (and what I have always believed) is that Dark Elves substituted manueverability for heavy attack power in most cases. Speed kills ... and we have it.

J


Tue Jul 29, 2003 2:34 pm
Report this post
Profile
Beastmaster
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2003 10:26 am
Posts: 376
Location: Denmark
Reply with quote
Post 
jeffleong13 wrote:
Speed kills ... and we have it.


Which is probably why you see quite a few lists with several Dark Rider units.

_________________
the only good undead is a dead, uhm, undead...


Tue Jul 29, 2003 3:28 pm
Report this post
Profile
Cold One Knight
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 8:01 pm
Posts: 221
Location: Belgium
Reply with quote
Post 
yeps indeed

_________________
Let your blades drink deep, my fellow executioners!


Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:06 pm
Report this post
Profile
The Aspect of Murder
The Aspect of Murder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2002 7:07 pm
Posts: 4646
Location: Los Angeles
Reply with quote
Post 
As much as you are sick of hearing it, this is one of the greatest strengths of MSU in my opinion. Because units are so much cheaper, I can afford to double up on almost every unit I have.

_________________
3 bots slain in Khaine's name.


Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:34 pm
Report this post
Profile
Silver Khaine Winner
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2003 7:04 pm
Posts: 2492
Location: Contemplating the construction of my fleet.
Reply with quote
Post 
I disagree with the thought that DE lack some redundancy in the Heavy hitters department. Redundancy is not necessarily about taking different types of units and hitting hard with all of them. Redundancy is about keeping a viable fighting force throughout the game from turns 1-6. Sure Executioners are weak to shooting, but while they are shooting that unit they are not shooting your COK, WE, or War Hydra. That is what redundacy is about. They can take one unit out of the play but can they take out all of your line breakers?? Probably not.

_________________
Image


Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:54 pm
Report this post
Profile
Warmaster of Slaanesh
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 7:07 pm
Posts: 1516
Location: The Great Maw
Reply with quote
Post 
@ Grog (et al): I think that redundancy is actually the greatest strength of MSU - you don't really have a "key" unit almost by definition. The ability to use any number of combinations does tend to allow for redundancy. This is what throws people off when facing this type of army - they look at only the first layer of the strategy ... they see weak units that they know will not measure up to their units. People fail to see the underlying principle, however ... while individually your units may beat mine, you unit will not beat my three units!

@ Underway: Rather than variety of units, I think that the point is more number of units that we can field, which comes down to a cost issue. For instance, COK are really only a guaranteed line breaker when either 1) they have a pumped up character or 2) they can autobreak (so, high US) - either way, you are talking 400-600 point unit, and you can't have many of those in an army of 2000 points.

Jeff


Tue Jul 29, 2003 5:47 pm
Report this post
Profile
The Aspect of Murder
The Aspect of Murder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2002 7:07 pm
Posts: 4646
Location: Los Angeles
Reply with quote
Post 
jeffleong13 wrote:
@ Grog (et al): I think that redundancy is actually the greatest strength of MSU - you don't really have a "key" unit almost by definition. The ability to use any number of combinations does tend to allow for redundancy. This is what throws people off when facing this type of army - they look at only the first layer of the strategy ... they see weak units that they know will not measure up to their units. People fail to see the underlying principle, however ... while individually your units may beat mine, you unit will not beat my three units!


I agree 100%, it is why I think MSU has such potential.

_________________
3 bots slain in Khaine's name.


Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:21 pm
Report this post
Profile
Slave on the Altar

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 12:03 pm
Posts: 6
Reply with quote
Post 
jeffleong13 wrote:
People fail to see the underlying principle, however ... while individually your units may beat mine, you unit will not beat my three units!

Jeff


Especially when they are Skaven Slave units.....right Jeff? :))

M


Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:25 pm
Report this post
Profile
Warmaster of Slaanesh
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 7:07 pm
Posts: 1516
Location: The Great Maw
Reply with quote
Post 
What?!?! We're being invaded by Rats!!!

Welcome to the club, Matthew ... I keep saying you need to finally get an elite army and leave those Rats behind ...

And yes, especially those darn Ld10 Slaves! :)

J


Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:28 pm
Report this post
Profile
Warmaster of Slaanesh
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 7:07 pm
Posts: 1516
Location: The Great Maw
Reply with quote
Post 
For all those interested, here is the original thread ...

http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=8991

J


Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:30 pm
Report this post
Profile
Executioner

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2002 10:11 am
Posts: 156
Location: oxford, pa
Reply with quote
Post 
Looks like rat boy is switching to the dark side, its about time he tried something more enjoyable and challenging, it must be the new revisions that got him over here-7pt dark elves hmm,

Kal


Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:11 pm
Report this post
Profile
Morathi's Favoured
Morathi's Favoured

Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:29 pm
Posts: 9728
Location: In the paintshop
Reply with quote
Post 
About MSU / MSE and Redundancy :

I still haven't seen anyone come up with what I would regard is an effective strategy to consistently beat an MSU / MSE army. And I certainly haven't seen anything that would give me serious concern or doubt it's viability. Everyone seems to be focusing on the fact that individually the units will break to heavy cavalry charges, magic and shooting. They do not take into account the movement phase.

The sheer number of units, the fact there is no prominent hammer, movement possibilities, magic enhancement and the Cauldron are the redundancy for this type of list. All of which are very subtle.


About Redundancy in general :

Someone said that DEs lack in the heavy hitter department, someone else said they don't. I say that by applying the principle of redundancy as effectively as you can when you write your lists will negate any doubts you may have.

The discussion so far has centred around the use of units, I would like to throw magic onto the table for consideration now too. A Sorceress as an individual can cause problems for your enemy for sure. However, consider using her to enhance units as they fall into trouble or start to lose their effectiveness. I find that a combination of Dark Art and Shadow Lore is one of the most effective ways of introducing redundancy into your list. Steed of Shadows puts some much welcome additional movement into foot characters which can use up dispel dice or scrolls, or at best cause your opponent to change his plan if a character suddenly appears behind his line!

And finally, Psychology, another very good way of enhancing your redundancy. Terror, fear, panic etc. All very useful.

@ IsmellCheese : good to see another wps member here. Welcome to druchii.net! :D

@ everyone else : I would just like to say that the standard of discussion here at druchii.net has become very. very good of late. Personally I really like these types of threads, starting with Malekithau's initial ideas right up to this topic, I feel these discussions benefit players of all skill levels. Keep up the good work, it can only make us all better generals.


Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:18 pm
Report this post
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2002 3:08 pm
Posts: 1290
Reply with quote
Post 
I have seen a good tactic against an MSU army. Big pieces of terrain placed close together in the middle of the board. My opponent did that in my last game. There was only enough space to get 1 unit through at a time and sitting there waiting were BIG cavalry units. So either I wait for all of the enemy units to form up on my side or I send mine through, 1 at a time Dying, 1 at a time.


Wed Jul 30, 2003 12:12 am
Report this post
Profile
Warmaster of Slaanesh
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 7:07 pm
Posts: 1516
Location: The Great Maw
Reply with quote
Post 
Dark Alliance wrote:
About MSU / MSE and Redundancy :

I still haven't seen anyone come up with what I would regard is an effective strategy to consistently beat an MSU / MSE army. And I certainly haven't seen anything that would give me serious concern or doubt it's viability. Everyone seems to be focusing on the fact that individually the units will break to heavy cavalry charges, magic and shooting. They do not take into account the movement phase.

The sheer number of units, the fact there is no prominent hammer, movement possibilities, magic enhancement and the Cauldron are the redundancy for this type of list. All of which are very subtle.


While I am not yet personally sold on the MSU/MSE concept, I can certainly see the merit of the approach. As some of you have mentioned in other posts, having a greater number of units than your opponent can often be more important that having more models. The additional manuever possibilities are the key to the difference. Our noted ex-Skaven friend (I read your book, Cheese-smeller) will tell you (if you really force him into a corner) that the key is the number of the units rather than any unit in particular.

Essentially what MSU/MSE proposes is a horde approach to WHFB for an elite army - you trade ranks and outnumber for wounds. The fallacy that I see in the long run is that whenever you are depending on causing wounds for combat resolution ... it will not always work.

That being said, I think that I have said about enough negative things about MSU without trying it myself. Pretty much any army that I play ends up as a finesse army ... heck, even my Chaos pretty much played that way. So ... let's see if I can take it to the next level. I will try out MSU/MSE and report back ... and I challenge all other doubters to do the same. I look for you assistance when I post my list ... 8)

Dark Alliance wrote:
The discussion so far has centred around the use of units, I would like to throw magic onto the table for consideration now too. A Sorceress as an individual can cause problems for your enemy for sure. However, consider using her to enhance units as they fall into trouble or start to lose their effectiveness. I find that a combination of Dark Art and Shadow Lore is one of the most effective ways of introducing redundancy into your list. Steed of Shadows puts some much welcome additional movement into foot characters which can use up dispel dice or scrolls, or at best cause your opponent to change his plan if a character suddenly appears behind his line!


Absolutely - an excellent point. I tend to go the medium magic route myself - a tradeoff of points vs. effectiveness. I have found that a continual reliance on magic will fail you in at least 1 of 6 games, but its effects in the remainder can be significant. DA's point on the combination of Dark (for short ranged damage) and Shadow (for movement and closing speed) is excellent. Similarly, a the use of some of the Death Lore (most notably the -3 Ld) with Psychology is excellent as well.

Dark Alliance wrote:
@ everyone else : I would just like to say that the standard of discussion here at druchii.net has become very. very good of late. Personally I really like these types of threads, starting with Malekithau's initial ideas right up to this topic, I feel these discussions benefit players of all skill levels. Keep up the good work, it can only make us all better generals.


I could not agree more. I think that we should all stop and congratulate ourselves on maintaining a consistently high level of both civility and intellect. I have been far more active on these boards of late - mostly because I realized that the average poster was far more interested in the game and his or her own army than in one-upping the next person on the list.

Thank you -
Jeff


Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:11 am
Report this post
Profile
The Dark Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2002 7:58 pm
Posts: 420
Location: Canada
Reply with quote
Post 
*Claps

I have ignored these boards after being flamed for a couple of ideas. Now I've returned to them, mind you, I usually browse the Painting and wargaming sections, but I can say the quality of posts has greatly improved. I think we can congratulate the mods as well as the great tacticians.

A long time ago (well, the post is no longer on WPS), Jeff Leong helped me design my list. It was about a year ago. It has 2 blocks of infantry, 2 chariots, a mobile highborn, 2 units of DR, 2 sorceresses, 1 RBT, a couple of shades and 5 CoK for baiting. Now, I've won 18 of my 22 last games with these, not a small achievement for a "weak" army such as dark elves.

The online community is a great help to all wargamers, may it be painting/army designing or tactical discussion, and we, at Druchii.net have some of the best here. I have taken lots of comments from expert painters, and with all their suggestions and techniques, I have won a painting contsts and finished 3rd in painting at a big RTT.

Vote Druchii.net, it's a safe bet!

Cheers!

Simon

_________________
FriedMalekith, Lord of Purple


Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:43 am
Report this post
Profile
Morathi's Favoured
Morathi's Favoured

Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:29 pm
Posts: 9728
Location: In the paintshop
Reply with quote
Post 
@ Fried Mal' : good to see you back. I need more Slaaneshi supporters as I am somewhat of a minority! !lol!

@ Jeff : I used the death lore -3 to ld against a dwarf player in the closing turn of a very tight game. I cast it in the magic phase and he let it go thinking that as I had no further opportunity to charge his general in the unit of Ironbreakers, he would be alright.

Thanx I said before promptly shooting the crap out of it, causing it to panic, fail due to the -3 and run of the table! !lol! Consequently I won the game :twisted:


Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:40 am
Report this post
Profile
Slave on the Altar

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 12:03 pm
Posts: 6
Reply with quote
Post 
Thanks for the warm welcome, although I'm here more of an interest of hearing about your MSU theory. I've been running a variant on MSU for some time now with the rats. I personnally call it "Ranks and Flanks" as with skaven you can maintain your unit size for the same point costs. As Jeff noted, the real key to it is outnumbering your opponent in number of units and not necessarily unit size. Elves hit a lot better then rats so you can get away with smaller units. Since rats have trouble actually causing wounds, the reliance is in the ranks for combat resolution. Both MSU and "Ranks and Flanks" theory rely on hitting your opponent in the flank and putting him at a huge disadvantage. With "RnF" having your ranks intact and negation your opponent, you start with a combat resolution advantage of +5 (3 ranks, flank& outnumber). A problem I see with MSU you are relying on doing a few wounds to obtain your combat resolution, and we all know that dice can fail us at times! The way to overcome this would be to work your units together and to multiple charges. A front and a flank charge will do better than just a flank charge with MSU. The opposite is true with rats. A solo flank charge is better than a combined charge because it denies the opponets attacks back on the rats!

Anyway I've probably said way too much on the subject. I have shelved the rats for the current time and I am working on a semi-secret project (only a few people know) for next season.

Matthew


Wed Jul 30, 2003 12:14 pm
Report this post
Profile
Warmaster of Slaanesh
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 7:07 pm
Posts: 1516
Location: The Great Maw
Reply with quote
Post 
FriedMalekith wrote:
A long time ago (well, the post is no longer on WPS), Jeff Leong helped me design my list. It was about a year ago. It has 2 blocks of infantry, 2 chariots, a mobile highborn, 2 units of DR, 2 sorceresses, 1 RBT, a couple of shades and 5 CoK for baiting. Now, I've won 18 of my 22 last games with these, not a small achievement for a "weak" army such as dark elves.


Glad that I could help - it's basically the same army that I play these days ... but have now decided to give the whole MSU thing a test run.

Welcome back -
Jeff


Wed Jul 30, 2003 12:29 pm
Report this post
Profile
Warmaster of Slaanesh
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 7:07 pm
Posts: 1516
Location: The Great Maw
Reply with quote
Post 
Dark Alliance wrote:
@ Jeff : I used the death lore -3 to ld against a dwarf player in the closing turn of a very tight game. I cast it in the magic phase and he let it go thinking that as I had no further opportunity to charge his general in the unit of Ironbreakers, he would be alright.

Thanx I said before promptly shooting the crap out of it, causing it to panic, fail due to the -3 and run of the table! !lol! Consequently I won the game :twisted:


My favorite story with that spell. A buddy was playing against Chaos ... with a big unit of 10 Chosen Knights (silly Chaos player). Anyway Mr. Chaos surges forward, only to have the Beastmaster on his Manticore land right behind his Knights ... no problem, he thinks. In the magic phase, the DE cast the -3 Ld spell ... which meant the Knights were now making their terror test on a 5! They failed and ran within an inch of a unit of DR ... who promptly ran them down in the next turn.

J


Wed Jul 30, 2003 12:33 pm
Report this post
Profile
Executioner

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2002 10:11 am
Posts: 156
Location: oxford, pa
Reply with quote
Post 
Redundancy according to the dictionary means excessive, overweighing. How that relates to game terms is quite simply many of the same units. Of course you can have many of the same units but their effectiveness will be reduced since their roles are rather limited or their roles are specialized and need assistance from other redundant units.

Designing for army composition in tournaments, you need to be redundant in your choices. You can have a jack of all units but master of none this simply means you have something to deal with whatever your opponents throws at you, buts fail when they have a master of certain phases capability in their army.

When designing an army you want to dominate one of the three critical phases. Movement, shooting, or magic, hand to hand is left out since this phases comes after, dominating one of the phases can give you the edge when it comes to the hand to hand phase. This is where redundancy in army composition comes in.

You must decide when creating your army what phase you want to dominate, what phase you want to master and what phase you want to be a jack of all. By designing an army that dominates the magic phase you will still need something that can be master of and jack of all for the other two phases.

When I design an army I always try to go for two of almost everything. The last GT I took two units of shades, two bolt throwers, 2 dark rider units, 2 level 2 sorcerers. This army was jack of all in the movement phase but master of shooting and not dominating in any single phase. It held up okay against magic, was master of shooting and jack of all in the movement phase. Most of my losses were against heavy magic armies.


Overall you need to be redundant in your choices, decide when creating an army what phase you want to dominate and be redundant in that phase, but always use redundancy to be master of and jack of all other phases.

Hope I wasn’t being to redundant.

Kal


Wed Jul 30, 2003 1:14 pm
Report this post
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.   [ 120 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software