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Army Composition Topics: Redundancy 
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Silver Khaine Winner
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Dark Alliance wrote:
MSU and I like to set obvious traps as a distraction to turn my opponents away from the real threat which is to follow in a later phase. That phase may well be in my magic phase or my combat phase, or even as a result of a fight he wins in his combat phase! The obvious threat needs to be addressed as I present a 'charge or be charged' situation to him and invariably his attention is diverted from what I really want to do.


So if I am following you correctly, you would set up an obvious charge or be charged trap, (Spearmen in front and DR ready to flank) in order to move a unit to give your sorceress line of sight to his Black Orcs and then cast Black Horror in your Magic phase? :shock: (me no learn tactics good)

Maybe you could give us an example of how you actually did something like you are describing. I'm not sure I follow your thought process, and would really like to fully understand what you are getting at... :)

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Fri Aug 01, 2003 9:14 pm
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I think I follow, but some examples would be illuminating :idea:

I am sometimes easily confused/ lose morale when something unexpected happens, so I must train under the masters...

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Fri Aug 01, 2003 9:44 pm
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Here is an example of something I did in a game against the Undead last night. I had a unit of DRs facing off against a really tough VC flank - 8 Black Knights led by a Blood Dragon with a Black Coach in support.

I had set up a feint flank in order to tempt him to try and flank me. My Lord / Manticore combo was in the centre field and obviously out of charge range, being unable to hit his Knights.

In my second turn I sent a unit of Shades into charge range of 3 Fell Bats. I played the odds figuring they could hold a charge. Sure enough, he charged my Shades with his Fell Bats and the combat held. I charged his bats in the side with my Lord and over ran straight into the side of his Black Knights. The real target, which was several 'phases' ahead.


Fri Aug 01, 2003 9:45 pm
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Did he charge your DR (which fled)? Were the bats inbetween your lord and his knights? Did you muller the knights and overrun away from the coach? Or did the coach flank your lord next turn?
I think I need to get more games in :roll:

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Fri Aug 01, 2003 10:20 pm
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AHA I see said the blind man. Very devious of you. I now know what you mean. That tactic would be very difficult to see comming if you were the VC player. And even if you did see it comming, what could you possibly do about it? Very inelligent. I knew you were smart DA but this puts you up on par with Alexander the great, Sun Tzu and dare I say Malekith himself (looks over shoulder expecting to see assasin) !lol!

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Sat Aug 02, 2003 1:18 am
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Funny that is the theme of my army. Every man woman and child must do there all to serve the witch king.

I don't know if this is the best but an example is that I give my archers shields so they can operate in combat when they need to. It does increase there cost but then they can also be a supporting close combat force giving there added weight to a situation.

I like the chariot idea. I am thinking about getting two for my army to give some added force.

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Sat Aug 02, 2003 1:37 am
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Drachanthir wrote:
Did he charge your DR (which fled)? Were the bats inbetween your lord and his knights? Did you muller the knights and overrun away from the coach? Or did the coach flank your lord next turn?
I think I need to get more games in :roll:


Yes sorry, I left that very important part out :oops: The DRs were charged and fled, putting the Black Knights in exactly the right place for the Overun from my Lord. ( can't believe I left that part out :oops: )

The Black Coach was on the other side of the Knights and away from this. My Lord took him out later. :twisted:


Sat Aug 02, 2003 10:55 am
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Cool and calculating :twisted:

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Sat Aug 02, 2003 5:33 pm
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Drachanthir wrote:
Cool and calculating :twisted:


But that's exactly what you have to do ... if you only seeing your current movement phase (or any other phase for that matter), you aren't going to be successful in the long run. The ability to look a turn or two ahead is what ends up consistently winning games for you.

J


Sun Aug 03, 2003 3:58 pm
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Ok we seem to be running out of steam on this thread so I'll try and give it an infusion of adrenalin with this topic.

Space. Now we all have our own definitions of space. Vorchild said earlier that his opponent with ghouls had an easy time of it on a 4x4 table but had a much more difficult time on a 4x6 table. I find this the same with my DE but in reverse. Especially against horde armies. On a 4x4 table horde armies can deploy from one side of the table to the other having two refused flanks. That means my fragile elves have to go straight into the teeth of his defences, and ususally come out the worse for wear. However on a 6x4 table my DR can get around to flanks, my flyers have more space to hide and move to and I find flank charges are more easily come by.

Without this space i need COK to break the line (8-10 usually autobreak on a charge and punch a nice hole) or I need to trade mass (sacrifice a unit) to gain space and get those DR flanks and rear charges.

Any suggestions on dealing with space on your battlefields? :)

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Sun Aug 03, 2003 4:19 pm
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i always play 1k on 4x4 boards and normally against the horde armies but can never seem to find space. your best bet is to deploy back slightly from lines and take terrain to your advantage to slowly split his army up, beating a unit at a time

also, cok punch units are great, although they cost lots!

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Sun Aug 03, 2003 8:01 pm
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First off, i'm not done reading through this topic (just finished page 1) and i would just like to say that everyone hear is great. You all are very intelligent generals, overly helpful and very understanding of new players. Through you all i have created a decent list (several, actually) and am now enjoying the revision due to your hard work and dedicition.
So, on behalf of everyone on druchii.net, thank you posters for keeping this forum clean of trolls and flamers (and if you flame, thanks for calming down 3 posts down the line :mrgreen: )

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Mon Aug 04, 2003 3:50 am
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The Underway wrote:
Ok we seem to be running out of steam on this thread so I'll try and give it an infusion of adrenalin with this topic.


Too true ... and an excellent infusion, I might add.

The Underway wrote:
Space. Now we all have our own definitions of space. Vorchild said earlier that his opponent with ghouls had an easy time of it on a 4x4 table but had a much more difficult time on a 4x6 table. I find this the same with my DE but in reverse. Especially against horde armies. On a 4x4 table horde armies can deploy from one side of the table to the other having two refused flanks. That means my fragile elves have to go straight into the teeth of his defences, and ususally come out the worse for wear. However on a 6x4 table my DR can get around to flanks, my flyers have more space to hide and move to and I find flank charges are more easily come by.

Without this space i need COK to break the line (8-10 usually autobreak on a charge and punch a nice hole) or I need to trade mass (sacrifice a unit) to gain space and get those DR flanks and rear charges.

Any suggestions on dealing with space on your battlefields? :)


To me, Space, as you put it, is in all reality manuever room. It is quite difficult for DE to do well without the ability to manuever our fast units around the battlefield. My worst game with my DE was against a Dwarf army that consisted of a huge unit of Slayers and another huge unit of Long Drong's Pirates ... both strung out in long lines to keep me penned in.

You can look at space in the overall (strategic/battlefield) sense, or you can look at it in the local (tactical/unit to unit) sense. The horde "march of doom" depends on the ability of the army to protect its flanks thorugh sheer weight of numbers. However, the biggest advantage of the horde (huge numbers of troops & units) can also be its downfall. Essentially, the large number of units are relatively useless in an isolated battle - if you can use several smaller units to overwhelm a single large one, you can easily break the line.

For instance, if you take an infantry unit in front of one end of the horde line and angle in towards the center of the board, you can redirect the enemy unit when he charges you. This can either allow for a flank charge from another nearby unit or open up a hole for DR to go through. Without a drawing it's a bit harder to show, but I hope you get the idea.

J


Mon Aug 04, 2003 12:50 pm
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The trick is create space as Jeff suggests,

Flank deployment is the simplest solution to creating space is to deploy in an unbalanced form i.e. All on one side of the table, this instantly produces room for you to manouver into. Also it benefits from negating your opponents troops on the opposite half of the board unless they can redeploy quickly. A good tactic for the Dark Rider dominated army.

Your opponent will have to wheel his battle line at you this allows your faster units to then extend the line back out and creates an artifical flank for you to threaten a particularly useful role for DR units or harpies in small games. If the units turns back to face the line gets staggered breaking up the attack allowing you to pick it of one unit at a time.

Overfly the enemy i.e keep out of sight letting your opponent advance then move your harpies and flying characters straight over the top of his line threatenening the rear slowing him up and again creating room for your units. This is probably one of the best uses of Harpies vs undead. This works well for missile or infantry dominated armies increasing the number of rounds to shoot before reforming to fight.

This move creates space by getting units out of you half of the table and places your opponent in a dilema as to what to do about them. Ideally you need multiple flyers to maximise this move.

March blocking with scouting shades will also disrupt any battleline ideally stick them in some hiden position and stay there as the battle line approaches, the elements near the shades are slowed down simply by their presence.

Most players will become impatient and advance the rest of the units more rapidly not wishing to loose turns advancing his combat troops. It may be a waste of their shooting but if it creates gaps in the line allowing you to move through the line or flank charge it is well worth it. A good ploy vs hordes and dwarves.

Whilst not all of this is not strictly about space all of these tactical ploys create space on the battlefield a combination of any or all of them will make the table seem much bigger to you opponent.

K

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Mon Aug 04, 2003 4:12 pm
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Overfly the enemy i.e keep out of sight letting your opponent advance then move your harpies and flying characters straight over the top of his line threatenening the rear slowing him up and again creating room for your units. This is probably one of the best uses of Harpies vs undead. This works well for missile or infantry dominated armies increasing the number of rounds to shoot before reforming to fight.

This move creates space by getting units out of you half of the table and places your opponent in a dilema as to what to do about them. Ideally you need multiple flyers to maximise this move.


@Keledron - excellent points all. Another thing to add here ... we have the advantage of using a Hero-Level large (i.e., US 5) flyer - the Beastmaster on Manticore. With the revision, he can now survive a bit more (2+ save), so he becomes a key to this tactic as well ... and the rank-breaking capability of the Manticore can be even more significant in creating that dilema for your opponent ... and making him react to you.

J


Mon Aug 04, 2003 4:40 pm
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Space.

I want to firmly link this in with the thread topic of Redundancy. In my experience the best way to get the upper hand on the Dark Elves is by limiting our movement. Our opponents limit our movement by not only trying to overwhelm us with hordes, but also by trying our tactics of harrassing ( Invocation of Nehek ) and march blocking.

The good opponents know this. They know that we need our Dark Riders to have freedom to roam and they know that we do not like to be charged and they know that we need to rule the movement phase. They know.

What they don't know though is what we are going to do when they attempt these tactics. They don't know that our list has taken this into consideration, they don't know that we fully intend to take our space back. And more than that we intend to gain more space! :twisted:

As you put your lists together consider the implications of the horde and of the fast enemy or the skirmished enemy. If / when that army comes at you intending to limit your movement options by invading your space, whether a full on forward action or the emergence of ambush units - what are you going to do about it?

If your list, or your battle plan is limited in that you have no spare units to directly accomodate such a threat, extend the reach of your redundancy by deploying in such a manner as to be able to secure your space and carry out your goal of taking his!

Offensively this can be achieved by the use of flight - army listed or magic orientated or by the careful positioning of Dark Riders or other such bait units.

Defensively, deploying slightly further back than normal, seperating war machines at deployment and maintaining lines of sight all help to maintain space.

One final point about space is having the ability to claim it in the closing turns by claiming table quarters. ;)


Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:27 pm
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So now we are moving into our opponents head. They are going to try and use there tactics and theories as well as we do. So in order to deal with this we take advantage of their attempts to take them off guard. I think this is an excellent way to use time as well. In the sense that DA was refering to earlier. Using time in your opponents phase. If you need space and deploy all on one flank to force your opponent to disjoint his attack to destroy you, one could say you used your opponents time and space against him. He/she moved to to destroy you and created a gap that you can exploit. That way you haven't even needed to show your hand to get a positive result. Hey, why waste your TIME when he/she can do all the work for you. :mrgreen:

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Mon Aug 04, 2003 11:05 pm
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The Underway wrote:
Hey, why waste your TIME when he/she can do all the work for you. :mrgreen:


An excellent comprehension of why the Druchii are the master race!!!!

Seriously though fantastic thread guys!

It's without doubt the first time in 20 years I've actually seen a group of players really put into words all the things many of us have learnt and do totally subconciously when we play.

@DA Look forward to seeing you put all this into practice in a couple of weeks - me I've got more DR's to paint and just maybe enough time to do the manticore!!!!!!!

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Tue Aug 05, 2003 9:12 am
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I would like to add one final point to this most excellent discussion before it vanishes to the Druchii vaults of page 2 and beyond :D

The application of Redundancy to 'Victory Conditions' in the closing stages of a game.

When you fully understand the concept of playing this game you are aware that even in the closing turns the tide of a battle can be turned and victory attained by the claiming of those all important table quarters. In addition, throughout the game be very aware of the need to collect banners from destroyed enemy units and attempt to regain your own.

When you evaluate your list and try to put some sense into everything we have discussed at length here just give one last thought to your ability to grab last minute points in a game. I am not suggesting that you design a list around this sole point ( unless playing Wood Elves of course :lol: ) but be aware of the capabilities of your units as you go into the final phases of the game. It may be prudent to adopt a second half strategy to make the most of the available points as the game draws to a close.

DRs, Shades and Harpies being the prime choices here for claiming and disputing quarters.

Hell of a thing this redundancy but it has been fun and I hope helpful to some.......


Wed Aug 06, 2003 12:04 am
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jeffleong13 wrote:
Dark Alliance wrote:
@ Jeff : I used the death lore -3 to ld against a dwarf player in the closing turn of a very tight game. I cast it in the magic phase and he let it go thinking that as I had no further opportunity to charge his general in the unit of Ironbreakers, he would be alright.

Thanx I said before promptly shooting the crap out of it, causing it to panic, fail due to the -3 and run of the table! !lol! Consequently I won the game :twisted:


My favorite story with that spell. A buddy was playing against Chaos ... with a big unit of 10 Chosen Knights (silly Chaos player). Anyway Mr. Chaos surges forward, only to have the Beastmaster on his Manticore land right behind his Knights ... no problem, he thinks. In the magic phase, the DE cast the -3 Ld spell ... which meant the Knights were now making their terror test on a 5! They failed and ran within an inch of a unit of DR ... who promptly ran them down in the next turn.

J


I don't really think that's possible, I tought that terror tests were made in the start of the turn sequence.
I could be wrong tough.

And@ all you guys of the tactics froum

THX ALOT, I've finally won a battle in 2 years, it felt sooo good I went to GW and bought a shitload of models

YEEEEEEEHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAA !razz!

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Wed Aug 06, 2003 8:57 pm
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Redundancy
my 2 cents.

Well I never like the ultra heavy cost point wise of 9 or 11 Coks full comand, plus Highborn with GOP. To many eggs on one basket, as everyone has pointed out.

With the new rules the answer is obvious, as far as I see it and for more or less the same price.

11 Coks full comand banner of murder. This is normally the "accepted way," thats 409 points plus highborn with Gop, HA, Shield, SDC mounted on a Cold one 242, for a total of 651 points.

Now I go this way instead.
4 CoC plus high born with Gop, HA, Shield, SDC mounted on a Dark PEgasus.
thats 258 for the HB and for the Coc 388 for a total of 646.

Right now I now everyone is thinking about cannons, all I can say is that for each tactic there is another one that can beat it. I don´t play againts armies that own cannons, cause non of the players I know have a cannon.

But 4 chariots riding in a straight line is a terrible thing for your enemy to look at plus the highborn riding behind them raising the L to 10.
Most units will be destroyed at a charge of 2d6+2 and all the attacks of the riders and the cold ones. Against ultra large units I charge with 3 chariots.
After the enemies ultra heavy units is broken down to little pieces I´ll let the chariots go wild...

Having to slots left I go for Harpies in case I need speed bumps.

The rest of the army is 4 RBTs, Dark Riders (have 18 of them right now) and points left are destribuited between sorceress and RXB units.

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Wed Aug 06, 2003 9:48 pm
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Happyslave wrote:
jeffleong13 wrote:
Dark Alliance wrote:
@ Jeff : I used the death lore -3 to ld against a dwarf player in the closing turn of a very tight game. I cast it in the magic phase and he let it go thinking that as I had no further opportunity to charge his general in the unit of Ironbreakers, he would be alright.

Thanx I said before promptly shooting the crap out of it, causing it to panic, fail due to the -3 and run of the table! !lol! Consequently I won the game :twisted:


My favorite story with that spell. A buddy was playing against Chaos ... with a big unit of 10 Chosen Knights (silly Chaos player). Anyway Mr. Chaos surges forward, only to have the Beastmaster on his Manticore land right behind his Knights ... no problem, he thinks. In the magic phase, the DE cast the -3 Ld spell ... which meant the Knights were now making their terror test on a 5! They failed and ran within an inch of a unit of DR ... who promptly ran them down in the next turn.

J


I don't really think that's possible, I tought that terror tests were made in the start of the turn sequence.
I could be wrong tough.


You are absolutely correct. The DE player dropped the Manticore behind the Knights in his movement phase. He then cast the -3 Ld is his magic phase. When it came to the start of the Chaos player's turn, they had to try a Terror test (for proximity to the Manticore) on a 5 ... and they failed.

J


Thu Aug 07, 2003 1:32 am
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wow, this is my 1st post. i tried warhammer about 3 years ago, but all my friends were very good, they all placed in top 20 in warhammer every year for 3 years at the GW GT in hong kong. so i played 40k, got pretty good, won many local tourneys, but decided to check out warhammer again. let me just say something...wahmmer and 40k have nothing in common...i didnt realize this. i think even with 3 years exp in 40k i would lose to your avg fantasy player...ive been reading this forum, not because i wanna try DE, but simply out of all online fourms, this is amazing. its like going to a conference on all things Tactic/BR/Army list at once and getting many views. i might play DE just cuz of all i have learned in pst 3 days reading this forum. i feel i could make a list just based on the knowledge you guys share so openly. and you dont just say things, you reason why, give examples, ect ect. its basically perfect for anyone with a DE army. why these are not around for other armies, i dont know.

--since u all seem to be exp warhammer generals as well, i was just wondering, this may be a strange questions...what is a good army to start off with? in terms of overall balance, army list, units, magic, ect ect. DE seem to be for more exp players, due to requirements of tactics n stuff. i.e. like eldar in 40k, if your good you cant be beat, for the most part, like me :), while most ppl can pick up space marines and compete, what im sayin is

all armies have weaknesses that can be exploited by a SMART general. i am not gonna be playin smarties, ill join the dummy league. whats a good army to learn with? not trial by fire, but just get the basics, like setting up flee reactions to open up a flank and stuff like that...thnx for your time...
in case it matters, i played Eldar, Tau, Dark Angels, and Nigh Lords in 40k, i was good with all of them, so i think i cna play a shooty, assault, and balaced list all very well, so i can hopefully adapt in fantasy

thanks again
ps-- excellent job talkin to Gav Thorpe, my 40k DA site i go to also has similar ties wit 40k side, they talk alot to andy chambers, cuz owen reece, who works for 40k is part of the site,
thats what these games need, comm support that is useful,

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Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:02 am
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@kamz0r really it all comes down to what you like the look of but here's a quick run down of the main contenders;

Empire - a good all round army lots of variety often need large numbers but much of it comes as plastic box sets.

O&G's - good allrounders lots of fun to play with but again bad for the wallet due to the numbers.

Dwarves - a bit one dimensional with no form of cavalry but some nice models.

Vampire Counts/Tomb Kings - cheapest armies in the game, easy to play with as many basic rules don't affect them - possibly worth considering.

High/Dark Elves - a bit of everything but require lots of time to play well with. DE's can be a bit expensive.

Chaos - endless variety, Mortal and Beasts are faitrly cheap to collect - functional armies can be entirely made from plastic box sets. Fairly easy to master.

Skaven - Classic horde, great army book, can be very powerful but will need loads of models so you really need to like them.

Lizardmen - some good figures - fairly cheap - dificult to master.

Keledron

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kamz0r wrote:
let me just say something...wahmmer and 40k have nothing in common...i didnt realize this. i think even with 3 years exp in 40k i would lose to your avg fantasy player


A friend of mine won Best Tactician at the Baltimore GT a few years ago in 40K ... and I think he still lost his first 5-10 games of Fantasy. It's a whole different game - far more tactical and far more demanding. It really all comes down to two things: 1) Movement is significantly more constrained in Fantasy - this basically means that it's far harder (if it's even possible) to recover from a mistake & 2) Shooting is far less deadly than in 40K - to decisively defeat your opponent, you must do so in combat ... which requires movement (see #1).

Don't despair, however. That same friend recently finished 5-1 at a GT - just one year after starting Fantasy. Once you get the hang of it, you'll do fine.

kamz0r wrote:
...ive been reading this forum, not because i wanna try DE, but simply out of all online fourms, this is amazing. its like going to a conference on all things Tactic/BR/Army list at once and getting many views. i might play DE just cuz of all i have learned in pst 3 days reading this forum. i feel i could make a list just based on the knowledge you guys share so openly. and you dont just say things, you reason why, give examples, ect ect. its basically perfect for anyone with a DE army. why these are not around for other armies, i dont know.


The way I look at it is this - if we can help other folks become better generals, they are more challenging opponents, which makes for a more enjoyable game. There are a lot of very good generals on this forum who are thankfully willing to share their expertise - welcome to the forum and we all hope you learn a lot.

kamz0r wrote:
--since u all seem to be exp warhammer generals as well, i was just wondering, this may be a strange questions...what is a good army to start off with?


Every army has something to recommend it and something that might make you shy away from it. For someone just starting out, I would recommend that you take an army that can play in every phase of the game (i.e., Shooting, Magic, Combat). To me, this knocks out Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings, Chaos, and Dwarfs. You have plenty of choices, however ... I would recommend one of the following:

Empire - most balanced army in the game. Has a little bit of everything, but not overly much of anything. If you really want to learn to play the game, not a bad start - but stay away from the Steam Tank until you can win without it.

Lizardmen - Rock hard combat troops, good magic, and nice shooting. A good all-around list that is quite forgiving due to good leadership.

Dark Elves - A personal favorite (obviously). Superb maneuverability (which is the true key to this game), good shooting and nasty magic. Will take a bit longer to truly master, but a fun challenge.

kamz0r wrote:
all armies have weaknesses that can be exploited by a SMART general. i am not gonna be playin smarties, ill join the dummy league.


Only one comment - you will learn a lot faster losing to better players than beating worse ones. While it's not a bunch of laughs to lose every game, do play against better players as often as possible ...

Good luck -
J


Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:27 pm
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