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Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 3:44 pm
by Bucheronis
Do you have to take the CoK unit in every army made with the TOK list ?
or are they a 0-1 slot and I have a problem with my computer ?
Do the Temple Zealots have M6 or do the Adept have to slow down ?
just to be sure : Zealots are Devotee of Khaine right ? so can an Assassin join them ?
Does the artifacts from the Temple of Khaine count as magical ?
Is the BSB still able to take artifacts from the Temple of Khaine while having a magic banner ?
If yes, for how many points ? )
Does the 5+ ward save given by the COB still apply outside the 24'' area for the units/characters under Khaine's Protection ?
Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:11 pm
by Vorchild
Bucheronis wrote:Do you have to take the CoK unit in every army made with the TOK list ?
or are they a 0-1 slot and I have a problem with my computer ?
You can take either 0 or 1 unit of COK in a ToK army - you're choice. They count as a rare slot.
Do the Temple Zealots have M6 or do the Adept have to slow down ?
just to be sure : Zealots are Devotee of Khaine right ? so can an Assassin join them ?
A unit of Zealots will move at M6. Yes, they are devotess of Khaine and an assassin can join the unit.
Does the artifacts from the Temple of Khaine count as magical ?
No ToK skills or poisons count as magical in terms of effects, but they do count towards the character allowance for magic items.
Is the BSB still able to take artifacts from the Temple of Khaine while having a magic banner ?
If yes, for how many points ? )
No. He can't even have poisons if he has a magic banner.
Does the 5+ ward save given by the COB still apply outside the 24'' area for the units/characters under Khaine's Protection ?
Khaine's protection grants unlimited range to the CoB. Therefore, for those characters/unit the 24" range no longer exists. Its unlimited.
Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 6:33 am
by Kalbron
Actually my question was a rules question if you want to nit-pick, as it was a question about how the rules were constructed (Therefore a 'rules' question
).
I've got another similar question too:
How long was spent testing this list (time and battles wise), if you would be so kind as to tell me?
As looking at it on paper, while it does have its weaknesses (relative lack of armour, elvish toughness, frenzy) it appears to easily make up for it with sheer volume of offensive power (as well as 5+ ward for all witches in most armies, now very effective assassins, characters that can be very powerful, the ability to rip through horde armies like a hot knife through butter, shades that could even kill small regiments etc.). While i have not personally had the time yet to test it i would love to hear what the creator/s have to think about it
.
(Seeing as this is a Q&A about the list the question does kinda fit
)
Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 1:02 pm
by Alcing ragaholic
Well, as the creator of the list, I will answer that one.
This list has been in playtesting/construction for over 3 months, with several playtests, from the PT Guild and the people that made the list. I probably played 3-4 PTs a week with different versions, trying and finding nicks and cracks, and fixing the issues.
I also played around at several different point sizes, and made sure I got a good variety of opponents.
===========================================
Well, the major weakness? Size. This army is really extremely small and fragile.
You mention powerful characters, which tend to be quite expensive, and T3 with only a 5+ ward. Very destructive against units, not as much against characters [however, the assassin gets the boost he needed against characters].
The 5+ Ward Save is only if you purchase a 205 point Rare choice artifact, that is only crewed by 3 Witch Elves, and is taken out with a little bit of effort.
Also, now that the characters and Rare's have been taken, you have troops.
The Core? 13 point models. At least 1 unit of them, and if you are smart, probably 1-2 per 1000 points to fully maximize the inclusion of the COB if you take it. Of the Core, we had LD6 flyers...
Specials? 17 ppm 5+ ward chicks! Holy moly! And to top it off, there are several excellent yet extremely expensive choices. Very powerful, but pricey. Don't forget stupidity...
And here's the best part! If the COB dies, you stop generating bonus dispel dice from the units and Model's with Khaine's Protection, and your 5+ Ward on the characters also disappears! How's that for risky?
Well, really, if you sit down and give it a few shots, you will see that the army can be extremely powerful in the hands of an experienced veteran, who will balance it to full effect, and it will die in the hands of power gamers, because no one unit that they have will win the game for them. That, I feel, is the most important part about a list...
Have fun with it, lots of time and effort was put into it from several people.
Z
Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 1:15 pm
by Vorchild
As one of the co-creators, I think I can very safely say that I don't think its overpowered. Some units are strong, but none are overpowered. They all have a strength and a weakness. The army may have some strong offensive attack power, for instance, but its mostly infantry that has no cav support. Much is also frenzied, including the rather expensive characters. I think it may even be on the weaker side of things that people may think as its extremely vulnerable to any number of things. I personally think its a difficult army to play well, but like the regular list, will greatly reward those who do know how to play it with maximum efficiency. And, like the regular list, you are almost forced to make it as balanced as possible.
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 8:47 pm
by Nagathi
From another thread:
Ariakhas Stormreaver wrote:why khaine list has no Highborns?
Answers?
Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 12:31 am
by Ariakhas stormreaver
Hey, I was going to post my question!!
Thanks Nagathi ;-)
I also want to THANK YOU ALL the effort of improve DE army and DE players level and fluff involvement.
ToK List is great, but as you can see in my question... I NEED A HIGHBORN... My Renegade Lord Ariakhas, Exalted of Khaine... *sob*
PS: I really need to take my old english books and read them again... forgive my bad grammar and so...
Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 5:15 am
by Alcing ragaholic
Sorry, no Highborns, since all the smart highborns are either off in Ulthuan with Malus, or in Naggaroth with Malekith, trying to stop the Civil War. Besides, who would take a Hag Queen if you still had the Highborn option?
Personally, you can call your General Lord Ariakhas and still use the Hag Queen rules and stats, just let your opponent know. Your fluff can be however you wish!
Z
Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 12:35 pm
by Jeffleong13
The list represents the forces of the Temple of Khaine, which is ruled by Hag Queens, not Highborns. Hence they are not in the list.
J
Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 5:13 pm
by Ariakhas stormreaver
AloneAndBurned wrote:Sorry, no Highborns, since all the smart highborns are either off in Ulthuan with Malus, or in Naggaroth with Malekith, trying to stop the Civil War. Besides, who would take a Hag Queen if you still had the Highborn option?
Personally, you can call your General Lord Ariakhas and still use the Hag Queen rules and stats, just let your opponent know. Your fluff can be however you wish!
Z
With no armor... you must see the miniature I converted...
Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 5:35 pm
by Jeffleong13
Ariakhas Stormreaver wrote:With no armor... you must see the miniature I converted...
Post up a picture for us all to see!
J
Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 6:12 pm
by Ariakhas stormreaver
Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 7:02 pm
by Jeffleong13
Very nice -
J
Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:43 am
by Cerulaetas
Will the Cauldron of Blood's effects extend to Temple Zealots? I realize they're not witch elves, but seeing as they ARE adepts of Khaine, and they worship and are part of the temples of Khaine, moreso than Dark Elf warriors, or even Executioners probably are, wouldn't it make sense that they are under the effects of the CoB? If so, wouldn't it make it more clear to say that the CoB effects all devotees of khaine?
This one is a bit nitpicky, but the Witch Elf entry does not include the Devotees of Khaine special rule.
And here's the best part! If the COB dies, you stop generating bonus dispel dice from the units and Model's with Khaine's Protection, and your 5+ Ward on the characters also disappears! How's that for risky?
In the description for Khaine's Protection it states that
Khaine’s Protection: This character generates 1 Dispel Die during the opponents magic phase and has unlimited range to the Cauldron of Blood.
which seems to imply to me that the Cauldron of Blood does nothing to determine whether the character generates a dispel die or not, and they simply always generate a dispel die.
EDIT: Do the attacks caused by a model dying from Wyrmrose include Frenzy? I.E. I kill a plague monk, who doesn't get the extra attack from the weapon, but does he continue to get the frenzy bonus (assuming that he still is frenzied), and therefore cause 2 attacks on whatever target is valid?
Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:53 am
by Vorchild
Cerulaetas wrote:Will the Cauldron of Blood's effects extend to Temple Zealots? I realize they're not witch elves, but seeing as they ARE adepts of Khaine, and they worship and are part of the temples of Khaine, moreso than Dark Elf warriors, or even Executioners probably are, wouldn't it make sense that they are under the effects of the CoB? If so, wouldn't it make it more clear to say that the CoB effects all devotees of khaine?
They benefit from the cauldron the same as a unit of warriors would. They are no witches, so they do not get the ward save.This one is a bit nitpicky, but the Witch Elf entry does not include the Devotees of Khaine special rule.
I think this might hae been brought up before. Yes, it should be there.And here's the best part! If the COB dies, you stop generating bonus dispel dice from the units and Model's with Khaine's Protection, and your 5+ Ward on the characters also disappears! How's that for risky?
In the description for Khaine's Protection it states that
Khaine’s Protection: This character generates 1 Dispel Die during the opponents magic phase and has unlimited range to the Cauldron of Blood.
which seems to imply to me that the Cauldron of Blood does nothing to determine whether the character generates a dispel die or not, and they simply always generate a dispel die.
That is correct, the cauldron has no effect on the number of dispel dice generated.EDIT: Do the attacks caused by a model dying from Wyrmrose include Frenzy? I.E. I kill a plague monk, who doesn't get the extra attack from the weapon, but does he continue to get the frenzy bonus (assuming that he still is frenzied), and therefore cause 2 attacks on whatever target is valid?
No, there are no weapons bonuses nor bonuses for special rules like frenzy or killing blow, or re-rolls for hatred, etc.
Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 3:04 pm
by Bucheronis
Thinking of it, a Noble can only coat hand weapons with poison. But what about Dread knight ?
I mean, if I buy some poison for my CoK's champion, will it apply for both his lance and his hand weapon ?
Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:46 pm
by Cerulaetas
Can a Hag Queen mounted on a Manticore fight with two-weapons, as can Hellebron? Or are they limited to the normal restrictions of only being able to use 1 hand-weapon while mounted, regardless of whether they actually have 2 hand-weapons or not?
Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:33 pm
by Vorchild
Bucheronis wrote:Thinking of it, a Noble can only coat hand weapons with poison. But what about Dread knight ?
I mean, if I buy some poison for my CoK's champion, will it apply for both his lance and his hand weapon ?
I'll let Z field this one, and the poison rules were his design. If I'm following the rules correctly, its only the noble that is restricted so as not to get anyone using a poison to get S7.
Cerulaetas wrote:Can a Hag Queen mounted on a Manticore fight with two-weapons, as can Hellebron? Or are they limited to the normal restrictions of only being able to use 1 hand-weapon while mounted, regardless of whether they actually have 2 hand-weapons or not?
No, the standard rules apply in this case - so no using two hand weapons while mounted. So she has to put one away. That being said, its a nice treat to have when the manticore goes down. She actually get MORE powerful.
a few point-related questions
Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:49 pm
by Geophrim
If assassins still have scouting as per the revision, aren't we giving them Killing blow for a very cheap price? Basically, the new assassin is 130pts, vs. 125 in the old book--> thus the cost for gaining Killing blow is just 5 points. Was this done to compensate for assassins being TOO expensive for their abilities?
I'm still a bit confused as to the rules for Witch Elves. So we have agreed above that they are Devotees of Khaine (so characters can join), but we have NOT said that they have Khaine's Protection. So, am I correct in saying Hags, Priestess, AND Brides have unlimited range to the CoB for their ward save, while Witch Elves are still limited to 24"?
Thanks very much!
Re: a few point-related questions
Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:52 am
by Vorchild
Geophrim wrote:If assassins still have scouting as per the revision, aren't we giving them Killing blow for a very cheap price? Basically, the new assassin is 130pts, vs. 125 in the old book--> thus the cost for gaining Killing blow is just 5 points. Was this done to compensate for assassins being TOO expensive for their abilities?
If you want to look at it that way, then yes, compared to the regular list, its KB for 5 pts. However, even though its the same army race, you really shouldn't compared across lists. For example, why aren't warriors cheaper in the CG list? Just 'cause.
Truly, all we did was borrow the assassin idea that was used and playtested during the Revision project. Then, it was considered fine and tested well - people actually took the assassin and he wasn't overpowered, and it was fluffy. I mean, honestly, 50 or more years of solid training in assassination techniques and an executioner knows more about killing things?I'm still a bit confused as to the rules for Witch Elves. So we have agreed above that they are Devotees of Khaine (so characters can join), but we have NOT said that they have Khaine's Protection. So, am I correct in saying Hags, Priestess, AND Brides have unlimited range to the CoB for their ward save, while Witch Elves are still limited to 24"?
That is absolutely correct. Expect an update to the file on the campaign site within about a week. I'm going to compile all this stuff and then send it off again for uploading. Ideally, I'd have it in a downloadable word file.Thanks very much!
Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:54 am
by Geophrim
Thanks for the response Vorchild! Out of curiosity, shouldn't we modify Witch Elves, so that their Ward Save is also without distance to the ColB in this list though? What is the rationale that the Hags/Priestesses/Brides have unlimited distance access to the CoB in which they can get Ward Saves, but WE's do not?
Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:33 am
by Cerulaetas
I'm guessing it's because the Hags, priestesses, and brides are the absolute favored of khaine, the brides are almost breaking hero-level, whereas the regular WE are just the rank-and file foot soldiers of the temple, and therefore have not had the time, nor do they have the prestige, to earn Khaine's favor to that extent.
Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:58 pm
by Vorchild
Cerulaetas wrote:I'm guessing it's because the Hags, priestesses, and brides are the absolute favored of khaine, the brides are almost breaking hero-level, whereas the regular WE are just the rank-and file foot soldiers of the temple, and therefore have not had the time, nor do they have the prestige, to earn Khaine's favor to that extent.
Exactly right. The characters and Brides are the most pious, the most devout, and the most favoured servants of Khaine. And they have all been around the cauldron a lot more than regular witch elves. Because they are that much closer to their God, they can feel His presence, and his power eminating from the Cauldron from further away. Its both a gift and a curse though, for Khaine enjoys murder and despair and will gladly send in these most devout servants to do His will, even if it means having them charge headfirst into a fight they cannot hope to win...
)
