Army winners

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Renegade
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Army winners

Post by Renegade »

I think is necessary a forum with list of armies that win a championship. So, newbie players can test these list and learn about our dark elves :twisted:
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Tei
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Post by Tei »

well maybe but i think it would be better for the newbies to create there own lists...besides there is an army list section and some people post there army lists on the battle resports thread
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Post by Drakken »

The problem with that is, odds are a newer player won't be able to grab a list a good general one with an succeed, since it have many tricks and design mannerisms based off the designers personnality and playing style. Its why flat out using someones army list isn't usually as successful.
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Post by Oloth »

Every player builds a list depending on his style of play. I have a standard 2000pts list against dwarfs another against elves ets ets and I still experiment on them... My against dwarves list has only lost 2 games so far the past one and a half year but when a friend of mine tried it he lost from the same opponent I played. He just couldnt figure how my twisted mind handles the list its simple..... ;) :twisted:
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Mtucache
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Post by Mtucache »

I've said this before, and I'll say it again.... list construction is really only about 20-30% of this game. It's so much more important to have experience and know the rules properly.... a good general with an average list should normally beat a poor general, regardless of the list he is using.

Second... tournament winning lists come in all shapes and sizes. Many additional factors have to be taken into account.... painting standards, composition scores, sportsmanship scores. Some tourney lists are constructed for certain scenarios, some are constructed to beat specific opponents. Some are for 2150 points, some are for 2000 points, some are for 500 points.

Lastly, there's only about 2000 Warhammer Tournaments each year (probably more).... you really want to sort through all of those lists? I certainly wouldn't.... :?
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Post by Renegade »

Well, i fight usually against Bretonians, Empire and High elves. The list of these three friends are almost always equal: Bretonnians are offensive, Empire is a static army with heaven magic, guns and cannons, High elves a static army with Heavens magic, archers and repeating, with some knights in flanks. But i see that dark elves army dont have a good strategy to tournaments. Dark elves aggresive are stupids if play with CoK and slow if play without them. Static tactic is a poor option: empire, high elf and others army are much better...

Then... what strategy is the best to a tournament.... i think a army adaptable with 3 mages, dark riders, some executioners, some crosswbows and hydra...

I think CoK armys cant win a tournament, i also think a static army is impossible... and i want see DARK ELVES army list Winners, not all the army list winners... so i can see if i have reason or not.

This is the cause i think a archive with tournament army list winners can be useful to me and others newbies...
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Post by Nagathi »

Got to agree with MTU and tei on this one.
A winning army is not all about the list, it 75% about how you use it (IMO). Tournamnet winning lists are posted in the battle reports forum from time to time, including reports on how the player played the army. That should give the new members some ideas on how to play and create their own list. All players like different kinds of lists, and new members should settle on what tpe of army they want instead of grabbing one that has won a tournament.

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Post by Bloodtemplar »

I'm actually for the idea. However, I don't think additional forum is necessary, more like a list of successfull armies (for reference, see how MtG sites present the tournament winning decks).

It's true that winning has a lot more to it than just the list but as there are a lot of good Druchii generals here on par with each other I think it would be useful to see what other players have found useful.

For the record, I'm not suggesting adding all tournament lists there, just winners of major tournaments. Contributing would happen by sending the list to a moderator who could then add it to the database.
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Post by Voodoomaster »

i agree with MTUCache you score points one regard to your generalship, your painting, your theme, your sportsmanship, and other important catagories.
also you need to understand your style of play if you give a newbe an army that won a tournament they will need to understand the purpose of every unit in the army, the tatics of the army and the general battle plan when facing any army. chances of getting this right one the first attempt, very small.
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Post by Mtucache »

@BloodTemplar... having been a MtG junkie (way back when it first came out, like up until Fallen Empires), I can tell you that winning at Warhammer and winning at Magic (either in tournament play, or just on a standard weekend night) is totally different.

With Warhammer, there's skill involved after the construction of the army... with Magic, it's about 90% luck-of-the-draw. Combinations are created/dealt and the gameplay has very little to do with the results, it's all about what cards you have in your hand at what time. With Warhammer, almost all of the skill comes into play during the game, not before.

I compare the two to more popular games like this: MtG is to Poker as Warhammer is to Chess. With one, you're depending on luck (cards) and ability to read your opponent, while in the other luck plays a minor part when compared to movement and gameplay sequence.

Now, all that being said.... I do love reading bat-reps from tournament victors, especially when they talk about how they used certain units and what they would have changed to make the experience any better.... so I guess I would be on-line with this idea, as long as it was made clear to people that this isn't some secret un-beatable list that everyone should use... ;)
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Post by Bloodtemplar »

@MTUcache: I was only reffering to MtG as an example of how to handle that sort of database. I know its different from Warhammer, I play both.

However, you seem to be catching my drift on this. Tournament winning lists and bat reps should be saved to a special database because they get lost in the forums.
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Post by Nagathi »

Saving lists on a special database is impossible. I'm afraid you need to browse the forums to find good lists. The lists in Druchii Armylists Forum (DALF) posted by "known" members are foten quite good. Some of them tell that it is a tournament army and they might have used it and won.

The Battle reports forum is a great place to see lists and tournament outcomes. The activity isn't that enormous, so you can probably find priced armies on the first page.

No special database or forum for armylists that have won tournamnets are not something we can do AFAIK.


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Post by Archdukechocula »

MTUCache wrote:With Warhammer, there's skill involved after the construction of the army... with Magic, it's about 90% luck-of-the-draw. Combinations are created/dealt and the gameplay has very little to do with the results, it's all about what cards you have in your hand at what time. With Warhammer, almost all of the skill comes into play during the game, not before.


I totally and completely disagree with you on that. Magic is about 50% deck construction, 30% knowing how to play your cards properly, and 20% luck (obviously my numbers are fairly arbitrary, but they get the idea across). There is a reason the pros constantly win despite the fact that hundreds of people copy their decks (and the pros almost always win at the tourneys). It's because they know how to play their decks properly, and how to tune their decks to an incredible degree. I have played magic since Beta (with a lengthy break after the aptly named Fallen Empires) was released in Walla Walla, and I can assure you, the way magic is played now vs. when it was played back in the day of Arabian Nights, Antiquities and Legends is just a world of difference. Even then the good players knew about deck construction and card play. I win most of my magic games not because of luck , but because I have the other two aspects of the game down. Luck can be a factor, but they have done a good job over time of mitigating its role in the game, and someone who knows how to structure a deck knows how to minimize luck in their own deck (redundancy, canrd drawing, minimal number of cards in deck, good land to spell ratios, etc).

So it is with Warhammer. Luck can play a significant role in warhammer, but luck isnt what makes the pros the pros (in magic you may have a good draw, in warhammer, a good roll of the dice at a key period). Its skill in both army construction and how the army is fielded. The difference to me is that warhammer is more heavily weighted towards the tactical aspects than the army construction aspects, where as magic is the inverse. A good player in either case takes steps to minimize chance both in army/deck construction, and how they use their army/deck, while at the same time still knowing when taking a chance is necessary.

As with Magic, I think lists of winning armies would have uses, even though they would have a certain limit at the point of really understanding how to play the list properly. Even so, I would like to see winning army lists, because, if nothing else, I could intuit how a pro might play by their army construction, since in most cases I can't always watch them play.
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Post by Mtucache »

Well, I can certainly see where gameplay skill could come into play in MtG, as far as reading your opponents and knowing how to play your deck.... as the line in Rounders goes
"Why do you think the same five guys make it to the final table at the World Series of Poker every year? Are they the luckiest guys on the planet? It's a skill game...."


But, I don't think it's got nearly as much as Warhammer.... not even close. Copying an army in Warhammer and doing well with it is hard. You still have to learn everything about your enemies' armies and rely on skill and experience during deployment and the game. Vast amounts of experience and knowledge is a must. Copying a Deck in MtG (and doing well with it) isn't nearly as hard. With only a limited knowledge of how your combos and routines work, you can get the deck to do the work for you most of the time.

With MtG, the gameplay is basically playing what you have in your hand.... you've either got the cards you need or you don't. So, you play your had as it is dealt to you. (With a minor amount of control, as you pointed out) Has the gameplay changed since I stopped playing.... yes, a lot, in fact, I can't even watch people play anymore because I have no idea what the hell is going on. But, I still contend that deck construction is much more important in MtG than army construction is in Warhammer....

Now... my viewpoint may be somewhat skewed, I admit, after having been out of the game for so long. But, another factor may be that experience and skill aren't nearly as hard to attain in MtG as they are in Warhammer. It takes only a couple of months for someone who picks up MtG to become well-versed in the routines and combos they are likely to face and what the capabilities of the cards are.... I've learned (the hard way) that you can play Warhammer for a long time before you're even close to good.

Bottomline, at the highest reaches of either game, composition is far secondary to skill and experience... so small in fact that it really shouldn't come into play at all.

Regardless, I apologize for taking this tangent as far as I have, it doesn't really have anything to do with the topic and this has been discussed hundreds of times before.

My recommendation for new users looking for a tournament list is to read through the Tactics Hall of Fame thread (it's a sticky) and catch up on Jeff Leong's Composition of a GT army topic. He's a GT Veteran and currently has a set of articles running in White Dwarf on WHFB. If you're looking for an exact replica of what people have taken to GTs, you'll have to scrounge through the BatRep forum and the Armylist forum..... My personal opinion would be to read through the Tactics HoF topics, start with someone's army you like, and modify it to something that fits your playstyle.... you can't get much more info than that, and after you post it to the Armylist forum for a review, just listen to those members you respect and listen to. That's about as good as you're going to get it.... and if putting in those two hours worth of work is too much for you, you're probably not patient enough to win a GT anyway. ;)
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Post by Bloodtemplar »

I'm with Archdukechocula on this one. As I said, I play and enjoy both games, actually more Warhammer again these days but there's no question about it, if one of these games is more about skill on the top level while the other one is about luck then Warhammer is the latter.

I think MtG has changed so much from the days you MTUCache played that your information about the game has been totally outdated.

I have played Warhammer for what, 7 years, and I haven't heard of single legendary player that goes from tournament to tournament always ending up in the top positions despite hundreds or thousands of people copying his army list and going up against him. I can name several in MtG, despite playing only for 4 years (without ANY major tournament play).

As has been said however, this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, I would just recommend getting to know the game before judging it.
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Post by Nagathi »

this has nothing to do with the topic at hand
Exactly, so please people, stay on topic. It looks like you've cleared out your issues about MtG vs. WHFB, so now I suggest we go back and continue the discussion about army winner database thingy (and read my previous post :))

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Post by Oloth »

Wizards of the Coast is publishing the tournament decks for mostly marketing reasons. Most of these decks suck, I play MtG for around a decade now and never used a tournament deck. Always experimenting on my owns. I think the exact same thing for WFB. Try, experiment, loose, make mistakes, study, play play play... Thats the only way to be a good DE general. Its not fun to want everything given to you ready and this way you'll never learn... ;)
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Post by Mdk »

I think it's a nice idea to create and series of army lists
to serve as a guideline for other people. Examples of 500pt,
1000pt, 1500pt and 2000pt cavalry, infantry, magic of shooting heavy
SoC of Khine list would'nt hurt anyone. I for example, had a lot of
support from the example armylist in the book. Why not?
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Post by Bloodtemplar »

Oloth wrote:Wizards of the Coast is publishing the tournament decks for mostly marketing reasons. Most of these decks suck,


So you're saying that if we would create a database for tournament winning army lists those would suck too? Whatever was your point it has nothing to do with the matter at hand or it escaped me.

For the record I wasn't referring to the tournament decks WotC releases but to the way independent MtG sites (like starcitygames) handle their database for tournament winning decks and that a similar way could be applied for recording tournament winning army lists. Now this has something to do with the topic at hand.
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Post by Nagathi »

BloodTemplar: I told you to stay on topic, then do.

MDK wrote:I think it's a nice idea to create and series of army lists to serve as a guideline for other people
There is a great sticky in he armylists forum. Written by Thanee and gives some really good advice to new members when they start building their armies.

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Post by Archdukechocula »

Oloth wrote:Wizards of the Coast is publishing the tournament decks for mostly marketing reasons. Most of these decks suck, I play MtG for around a decade now and never used a tournament deck. Always experimenting on my owns. I think the exact same thing for WFB. Try, experiment, loose, make mistakes, study, play play play... Thats the only way to be a good DE general. Its not fun to want everything given to you ready and this way you'll never learn... ;)


Thats one way to go about it. Another is to learn from the masters. One can attempt to get good completely independent of others, but one can only excel if they are able to learn from others as well, no matter what the subject. Generally, a person capable of learning from others will get good faster than the person who insists on learning completely on their own. I can look at a tournament winning list, or a tournament winning magic deck, and I can figure things out about the player and how they play just by looking at it. I can apply this information to myself, and will have the option to employ such knowledge in the future. I mean, you have to figure out for yourself if you are ready to digest the ideas of others, but good generals in real life usually become good because of a combination of talent and knowledge. I think the same is true for generals in warhammer.
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Post by Renegade »

I agree with Archdukechocula. With tournaments army list i can imagine and test good tactics used by others druchii generals, learning why they won the championship...
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