Too much D.R.A.I.C.H. topics ?

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[llct]kain
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Too much D.R.A.I.C.H. topics ?

Post by [llct]kain »

Hi,

it is quite clear to me that this post is close too heresy and some of the people more envolved in the D.R.A.I.C.H. will jump on this topic :-)

So first off all to make sure it gets the right way: I highly appreciate the - good - work which is done with the D.R.A.I.C.H. and think it will become one of the best pieces of work done for warhammer.

But in my opinion it will become (future) and currently I have the impression that the D.R.A.I.C.H. topics spam the tactics section - and some good discussions are handicapped in regards to the D.R.A.I.C.H. topics. Perhaps the thread Link could be an example.

Without doubt there are some good D.R.A.I.C.H.-threads out there. The new book is quite young and so is the tactical understanding we have of our race - perhaps it is not the best way to put out new topics with haste just to fill the ToC. An example here would be the discussion on the magic items which is IMO a better version of hot or not, the Touch of Death was finished after 4 post which included something like 6 senctences.
The other way round would be the better to go. If time passes people will come up with problems and with genius solutions/ideas for these, and these threads should be included afterwards int the D.R.A.I.C.H..

Just some thoughts ...
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Re: Too much D.R.A.I.C.H. topics ?

Post by Calisson »

[LLCT]Kain wrote:it is quite clear to me that this post is close too heresy and some of the people more envolved in the D.R.A.I.C.H. will jump on this topic :-)

Sure it is not heresy to state your opinion, especially in such a polite and proactive way!
All the people involved in the project are probably open for discussion, otherwise they would have post their "definitive authoritative opinion" under their own signature, not under a collective one.


[LLCT]Kain wrote:So first off all to make sure it gets the right way: I highly appreciate the - good - work which is done with the D.R.A.I.C.H. and think it will become one of the best pieces of work done for warhammer.
(...)
Without doubt there are some good D.R.A.I.C.H.-threads out there.

:oops: That is a nice compliment for the project! I know many D.R.A.I.C.H. authors that fully merit it and I am glad for them to see someone writing it.


[LLCT]Kain wrote:currently I have the impression that the D.R.A.I.C.H. topics spam the tactics section - and some good discussions are handicapped in regards to the D.R.A.I.C.H. topics.

There has been a debate whether making a dedicated D.R.A.I.C.H. forum or include it in the tactics forum. The result was that it was more convenient to keep the D.R.A.I.C.H. inside the tactic forum, for the topics covered were the same.

I am weary of the spam feeling that may annoy some D.net users and I regret the inconvenience.
Presently, there are 14 threads intended to be part of the ultimate D.R.A.I.C.H. They have been created in a very short time frame (during which I understand the “spam” feeling) but now, they are silently edited. That cannot possibly be felt as spamming.

Some other threads are named after the D.R.A.I.C.H.
Their content is not finalised and I am not sure that their authors intend to update the first page of the thread with the content that follows, as a true D.R.A.I.C.H. thread should be.
Anyway, their content will be highly useful and the obvious intention is to copy/paste the best extracts in one of the ultimate pages of the D.R.A.I.C.H.

The success that these thread encountered is probably a proof that the topics were interesting.

Some threads with D.R.A.I.C.H. in their name raised little or no comments. It is not spam. It is a try and err process.
- Errare humanum est, sed persevere diabolicum - .
Please forgive us for the sake of the final result.

[LLCT]Kain wrote:perhaps it is not the best way to put out new topics with haste just to fill the ToC. An example here would be the discussion on the magic items which is IMO a better version of hot or not, the Touch of Death was finished after 4 post which included something like 6 senctences.


Even the ToC is not finalized! :lol:

The final articles must come from somewhere.
- One way is to write a full article and wait for the comments to enrich/correct it.
- Another way is to raise comments with “what’s hot and what’s not” threads, and later on, someone will hopefully review these threads and do a lot of copy/paste, and write a good article.
Of course these threads are not finalized. You’re welcome to enter the debate!
[LLCT]Kain wrote:The other way round would be the better to go. If time passes people will come up with problems and with genius solutions/ideas for these, and these threads should be included afterwards int the D.R.A.I.C.H.

- This way is another good one.
Let’s keep open all the ways.

[LLCT]Kain wrote:Just some thoughts.

Thank you for expressing them. Looking forward to hearing more comments so as to be as much profitable to all the D.net community as possible.

Calisson
Last edited by Calisson on Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Too much D.R.A.I.C.H. topics ?

Post by Dyvim tvar »

[LLCT]Kain wrote:The new book is quite young and so is the tactical understanding we have of our race - perhaps it is not the best way to put out new topics with haste just to fill the ToC.


I have to agree here. There are a few issues I see resulting.

First, I think the content could be of higher quality, and in many cases linking to threads outside the DRAICH on the same subjects would result in more in-depth discussion and better content.

Second, I think there are way too many topics in the table of contents right now. I think this makes the DRAICH somewhat unfriendly to navigate. Many of the topics are just too narrow in their scope and should either be part of the discussion in a larger topic or in some cases shouldn't be there at all when there are only a few sentences in them. And the large numebr of 'placeholder' topics doesn't help. You have to wade through a lot of empty topics to find anything of substance.

I think the overall issue I see is that I think a project like the DRAICH should be allowed to develop in a more organic fashion -- subtopics being made as a larger topic is developed rather than being dictated in minute detail from the outset.
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Re: Too much D.R.A.I.C.H. topics ?

Post by Calisson »

YES!
More comments and suggestions! Thank you!

Dyvim Tvar wrote:the content could be of higher quality

True.
It is like Wikipedia: everybody is welcome to improve the content.
If you’re unsatisfied, feel free to contribute and everyone will benefit from it.
I am looking forward to read some of your D.R.A.I.C.H. articles and comments.

Dyvim Tvar wrote:in many cases linking to threads outside the DRAICH on the same subjects would result in more in-depth discussion and better content.

That’s what I am doing all the time.
Most of the linked topics were not created for the D.R.A.I.C.H., I just thought that some information in these threads deserved a link, and a copy/paste in the future.

Dyvim Tvar wrote:there are way too many topics in the table of contents right now. I think this makes the DRAICH somewhat unfriendly to navigate(…) And the large numebr of 'placeholder' topics doesn't help. You have to wade through a lot of empty topics to find anything of substance.

True.
I spend too much time updating the ToC because I’m afraid to loose some good information.
I wish I had the time to review, one after one, all the linked threads and at least signal those with a lot of good information and remove the less useful.

Dyvim Tvar wrote:Many of the topics are just too narrow in their scope and should either be part of the discussion in a larger topic or in some cases shouldn't be there at all when there are only a few sentences in them.

Some threads were the first I saw dealing with some specific topic, so I included them in the ToC just in case someone were looking for this information. Sometimes a better thread may have superseded them. I wish someone would tell me. Also I still have little experience in DE and I am not that good a tactician to judge soundly which threads are the most interesting and which one are scrap. No one tells me!. This is also why I need better authors than me to do the job!

Dyvim Tvar wrote:a project like the DRAICH should be allowed to develop in a more organic fashion -- subtopics being made as a larger topic is developed rather than being dictated in minute detail from the outset.

I had exactly that in mind when I created the D.R.A.I.C.H.

But…
It did not go as expected:
Many of the topics did not grow as quickly as I wished, so I kept collecting threads instead in order not to let some valuable information vanish.
And I was surprised to see that the ToC, despite its drawback, is already appreciated and fills a role until the D.R.A.I.C.H. is completed.
Despite the inconvenience, 5000 views are probably a testimony that it is not so bad a tool. Still, I am eager to improve it and take consideration for your suggestions.

Again, thank you for your valuable opinion.

Calisson


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT:

How could MisterNemo improve the D.R.A.I.C.H.?

MisterNemo is looking for some opinions about "Dark Riders with shields" in the D.R.A.I.C.H.

He looks first in the thread "D.R.A.I.C.H. - The Units" then in the related thread "collecting information on units for draich", but unfortunately the topic is not covered yet.

So MisterNemo looks instead in the Table of Content, in the detailed part further below.
There he finds four different threads, not organised, with plenty of diverse opinions and some interesting suggestions spread over all the threads.

As he wants a clear opinion, MisterNemo creates on his computer a new MicrosoftWord document.
He copy/pastes all the interesting parts of the threads he is reading.
He reads back the document, organizes, summarizes, and at the end he has some information about "Dark Riders with shields".


(now look, here comes the really interesting part)

Suddenly MisterNemo realizes that his summary could be of some use for another frustrated future reader of the D.R.A.I.C.H. who would look for the same topic.

So he goes back to either thread "D.R.A.I.C.H. - The Units" or "collecting information on units for draich", and posts a reply that includes his work about the topic. He mentions from which links his work is a summary.

Later on, the author of that thread will include the work from MisterNemo in his first page, and Calisson can delete the links from the ToC (as they became obsolete).

Result:
the ToC gets slimmer,
the D.R.A.I.C.H. topic improves,
all users benefit from it
and MisterNemo feels a deserved sense of self-gtratification.


So now YOU know what to do: BE A MISTERNEMO. Join us. Write your own summary and help the D.R.A.I.C.H. improve.
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Post by Lethalis »

Would it be something to have a group of Top Threads featuring prominently? As in, general must-reads etc, choose from the higher level of discussing tactics and strategies. For lesser discussed topics (themed army lists, one-trick ponies, etc) the user could still be directed to a somewhat less prominent though still readily available table of content of everything that has been collected.

Overall I think the DRAICH could do with more attention, maybe a bit like in the D.net Monthly fashion.
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Re: Too much D.R.A.I.C.H. topics ?

Post by Brad »

Calisson wrote:There has been a debate whether making a dedicated D.R.A.I.C.H. forum or include it in the tactics forum. The result was that it was more convenient to keep the D.R.A.I.C.H. inside the tactic forum, for the topics covered were the same.


If I'm not mistaken, PHPBB allows you to create sub-forums. So you could have a D.R.A.I.C.H. forum within the tactics forum.
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Post by [llct]kain »

First of all I am surprised and happy about the answers, especially the tone of the discussion (thanks).
But…
It did not go as expected:
Many of the topics did not grow as quickly as I wished, so I kept collecting threads instead in order not to let some valuable information vanish.
And I was surprised to see that the ToC, despite its drawback, is already appreciated and fills a role until the D.R.A.I.C.H. is completed.
Despite the inconvenience, 5000 views are probably a testimony that it is not so bad a tool. Still, I am eager to improve it and take consideration for your suggestions.

5000 views are great, and I am sure in the end it will be a six digit number.
I choose the part of the answer because it illustrates quite well the different view on the evolution of tactics. I think there are two different understandings what the DRAICH could/should be.
Option 1 is that the DRAICH will be a source of information for everyone, especially the ones new to Druchii or just joining the Witchking. Giving a in deepth knowledge about all the tricks for DE.
Option 2 is that it will be mainly a collection of well done builds, good ideas and genuis advices.
The Option 1 is a thing that could be archived by creating threads and colleting the contribution. Option 2 could not be engineered, that needs time. Time to create the ideas, to get the feeling for the new army - doing a lot of games. If such topics arise they will be recognized (I am sure) and no brillant idea will get lost.

As a result: Would it be an option to restrict the "forced" DRAICH topics on option 1 (e.g. breif overview of units, items, heroes and some lists) and let it be. And just have a look for option 2 topics and include them when time will create one ?

(P.S. Perhaps i missed the discussion about the aim of DRAICH, cureently I have the feeling that it should be a master of all document)

Calisson said:
There has been a debate whether making a dedicated D.R.A.I.C.H. forum or include it in the tactics forum. The result was that it was more convenient to keep the D.R.A.I.C.H. inside the tactic forum, for the topics covered were the same.

If I'm not mistaken, PHPBB allows you to create sub-forums. So you could have a D.R.A.I.C.H. forum within the tactics forum.

This was discussed some weeks ago in another thread.
It would seperate the DRAICH topics more from the rest of the tactics forum.
Which would result in a seperation of the two topics, either you go to tactics to share and search for tactical knowledge or you you to the (sub)forum. Personaly I would look up both forums some time and then stick to the one I am most used to. in the end the quility and deepth of the discussions would further decrease...not the thing I would like :-)


Dyvim Tvar said:

the content could be of higher quality


True.
It is like Wikipedia: everybody is welcome to improve the content.
If you’re unsatisfied, feel free to contribute and everyone will benefit from it.
I am looking forward to read some of your D.R.A.I.C.H. articles and comments.

For me this is a argument too short - yes everybody could improve the quality. But, we had a very high level of quality on this side. Now the new book is out a lot of ideas are thrown in, discussed and more people are participating (I think the site gained around 3K users this year). Some of the posts in the current discussions (not necessarily related to the DRAICH) are just crap. Giving you one sentence content and 5 lines of signature. Perhaps it would be an option to try and increase the general level of discussion and as a result the level of quality ... and in the end the value each discussion could bring for our beloved race (or the DRAICH).
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Post by Azure »

[LLCT]Kain wrote:Personaly I would look up both forums some time and then stick to the one I am most used to. in the end the quility and deepth of the discussions would further decrease...not the thing I would like :-)


Exactly why I do not like the idea of a sub forum. I feel like one of them would get passed over and would lead to a lot of posts that are covered in the other forum.

Also I just want to jump in a mention that I am currently watching the 1 line responses in the tactics forum. I let it slide for a bit thinking it was just going to happen once in awhile but I am starting to see a pattern. I think it is fine in a rule discussion or possibly in General Discussion but Tactics really require more than a "No, that won't work" kind of posts.

If I may mention Kain that if you have suggestions never be afraid to start a thread about it. We are mostly quite reasonable and Rork has only been known to sacrifice members on occasion.

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Post by Crawd »

I already said my opinion about it and the DRAICH is a spamfest right now.. Sorry but I skip most of them because of it. Why? Because the book is still young and we surely didn't tried everything and some people are posting within it thinking they are the God of the Dark Elves.

I'll stick with my opinion by just pointing out the army with 45 shades, most people are enjoying it just because it's in the DRAICH. Seems like I'm the only one that doesn't like it, not because of the DRAICH, but because I don't like the lack of sportmanship within it and because it's a gunline (want it or not, it does look like a gunline, a mobile gunline but still a gunline).

Now I just skip most of the tactical forum because it's all about the DRAICH project. Don't get me wrong here, the project as Calisson started it is awesome, but the lack of organisation really ruins it. He and people who's helping him should have a personal forums to discuss between them for topics that should get in or being discussed. Because as it's going, everything in the tactical forum will become in the DRAICH project, which makes it useless.

So yeah, that's my suggestion for the DRAICH, a personal sub-forum in the tactic forum for DRAICH organisators and only them will be able to start a topic about the project. Which will reduce by a lot the spamfest or the "include the whole topic forum" as DRAICH.
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Post by Calisson »

Hi all responsible people, and, again, welcome in the debate.

I see your frustration as a proof of your interest in the quality of the final product.


Let me try to explain what I intend to be achieved with the D.R.A.I.C.H., and the strategy that I hope could lead to the desired end-state.


The final D.R.A.I.C.H.
I share with you the vision of a final D.R.A.I.C.H., which will be a very short master document (the Table of Content – only the first post) leading to a dozen of sub-threads. Each of these threads should cover in depth one aspect of the tactics for the Druchii. The threads should be made with 15 to 20 well written posts, containing generally agreed state-of-the-art about all aspects of the covered topic. The whole D.R.A.I.C.H. will encompass all aspects of the strategy related to druchii.

Why a dozen of sub-threads? So that each of them would be taken over by a volunteer, a person responsible of writing good articles with style, and willing to take into account the reasonable opinions and contributions expressed about his topic. A single author does not suffice for the task.

Each of these threads can be made from up to 25 posts so that the whole remains accessible in the first page, whatever the comments posted later on (the principle that I call a “Living First Page Thread). And several posts are easier to edit independently rather than editing the whole thread each time.
The separation between posts can also serve as a separation between chapters.

If a topic grows out of proportions, nothing forbids to make a D.R.A.I.C.H. sub-sub-thread, linked from a more general D.R.A.I.C.H. sub-thread, still with the intention of writing in good English a sound article covering in depth the intended topic. Such a sub-thread could also evolve to a distinct chapter of the D.R.A.I.C.H. and get a link directly from the main ToC.


The authors.
These were the principles I laid down. I asked for volunteers, and the criteria for choosing them was only their volunteering for D.R.A.I.C.H. or, for some of them, their volunteering to become a moderator. I did not cast them about their tactical knowledge nor their English skill nor their dedication. They are not paid. I accepted them as they are, with the intention to have the whole D.net community help them to improve their work. Some are obviously better than some others. I thrive to encourage them all.


What do we get?

a) We got the first draft of the final articles (which are linked from the main ToC).

Some of them are barely started, some of them quite well written but still needing a lot of improvement.
Hopefully they will all improve with time and dedication and the help of contributors.

I PM’ed the authors, all but one want to keep proceeding, but they don’t necessarily get the help they expected and they often cannot devote the necessary time to finish their article on the spot.

I tried to reflect this with my color-code in the main ToC. I tried to be very gentle with the state of achievement so as to encourage the author, not to punish them.

Contributions to the content could be taken from the comments posted directly at the end of the relevant thread. I wished this way of contributing to become the most frequent, it just happened that very few contributions were made that way.


b) We also got some threads that are created with the deliberate intention of covering one aspect of the D.R.A.I.C.H. with the help of a couple of goodwilling D.netbrowsers.

For now, there is a couple of them running on and I like the creativity shown in them.
It is an excellent way to proceed in my opinion, as long as the topic raises effectively some comments.
The tactical quality of these threads is varied, usually above average, but of course the quality of the writing is still very far from the final D.R.A.I.C.H. standard.

I consider that these threads temporarily can be part of the D.R.A.I.C.H., so as the D.R.A.I.C.H. has at least something, it is still better to have bad quality than nothing.
As soon as the content will be analysed and a good summary will be made from them, then these threads will be discarded.


c) Very few articles are written with style to cover some tactics and without any intention to be inserted in the D.R.A.I.C.H.

I don’t see any reason not to include them in the D.R.A.I.C.H. at least with a link. Call them D.R.A.I.C.H. or not, I don’t care, only the content is important, not the title.
I haven’t seen so far any such article after 7ed Army Book was released, but I linked some excellent articles written for the previous editions that keep some validity and can be of some use until they are re-written.


d) Then we got what you call spam.
As you mentioned:
A brief overview of units, items, heroes and some lists.
A lot of ideas are thrown in and discussed.
Some of the posts in the current discussions are just crap, giving you one sentence content and 5 lines of signature.
A spamfest right now.

These small threads were intended to be independent from the D.R.A.I.C.H. (which is the case for 95% of the threads presently posted in the tactics forum, that you call “spam”).
There is often a couple of sentences that are interesting for the D.R.A.I.C.H. and that would need to be inserted in some article. There is a lot of unwanted comments.

These comments inside independent “small” threads need not to be read again when the main thread will take them into account.

The problem is that until the main threads take the contributions into account, these contributions are to be found only inside “scrap” threads or unorganised, badly written threads.
That is why I include them in the detailed ToC below the main one.
This situation is meant to be temporary.


Improving the quality.

I understand that you regret the quality that used to be found there.
I am not convinced that some people are posting within it thinking they are the God of the Dark Elves.
I am not even convinced that anyone is creating these threads with the intention to get a link in the D.R.A.I.C.H. and boast about it.

I believe that they are just so happy with their discoveries with the new Army Book that they post anything in the tactical forum without realising the expected quality.
So I believe that it is the tactic forum that became spam-like, but please don't accuse the D.R.A.I.C.H. which intention is just to find some good ideas inside these many threads.

What we need to do is to improve the overall quality of the forum.
I would like also myself to try and increase the general level of discussion and as a result the level of quality.
If I can contribute, let me know. The mods are here for that as well and we need to work together.
I believe the category b) and c) quite answer that concern. The category d) is obviously not of D.R.A.I.C.H. intended quality.
If you can improve that, I can only encourage you!
If not, do like me, contribute to the final D.R.A.I.C.H. with category b) or c), and be patient.


Is a dedicated forum needed?
I believe not: most of what should be written in the tactics forum should be useful for the D.R.A.I.C.H., and all that is written for the D.R.A.I.C.H. is useful in the tactical forum.


The way forward?
I choose to include many links to some of this “scrap” just because I had nothing else to offer the interested D.R.A.I.C.H. reader on most of the topics.
Even the would-be D.R.A.I.C.H. authors would like to get some help. With my links, at least, they have something to start with.

I wish that good articles would cover whole sections of the D.R.A.I.C.H., in which case I could delete the links and just leave the one link to the D.R.A.I.C.H. part.
Until it is done, I will keep adding some links when I feel that any thread is of - limited – use, because I have received already many comments telling me that it was already useful – until the D.R.A.I.C.H. is written.

As I mentioned higher in the thread: someone has to do the work of collecting interesting opinions from the “spam”, write a good article and post it.
I just can encourage anyone, you reader included, to take your courage and to do it.

I cannot do it alone. We can do it together. With your help, we’ll achieve it some day.

Hopefully within a couple of months, some of the articles will have been written close to their final quality (well, the D.R.A.I.C.H. should stay "living" so there should be nothing such as "final").

Then, the tactical forum seems appropriate to take the remaining threads, one after another, and to cover all the intended topics.



Comments welcome, as usual.

Calisson
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