Logo
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:55 am



Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 
Improving a Player 
Author Message
Highborn

Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:04 pm
Posts: 638
OK, so im part of a small game group, but detach myself once a week and travel to the local GW store to play different players.
Our group is somewhat split with 2 massive power gamers and then me and another that I would consider friendly player.

The 2 power games play VC and Chaos, 2 armies that are considered one of the most powerful around. Playing their lists does suck a bit but does throw in a challenge, it’s their existence that sends me to the local GW once a week.

I as of late feel sorry for the 4th member of the group, the player who doesn’t have masses of models so ends up playing softer lists and in turn always loses.
He plays HE and he is a fairly competent player just that he is against probably the 3 hardest armies to beat.

I want to help him, I want to take his models he has then make a cheese list so that he can stand up to the other two power gamers. I have played both of the mentioned with what I would consider very soft and friendly DE lists. Beat the Chaos down with a Manti Master few Sorceresses and pure core.
And drew with the VC using pure core list and 1 unit of 5 Shades. I didn’t use any of the ‘broken’ DE items. No RoH, PoK, no Hydra, Dragon, BG or RBT.
I am able to beat two armies that should really receive a solid victory vs my weakened lists but they cant always seem to do it. Tactical mastery maybe, im putting it down to bad gamming and only beating on the same 2 armies, Elves.

At any rate my poor HE friend never wins, I think this fighting spirit has gone some what and it is becoming a challenge to get him to play even when I make easy lists to beat and then give him my list to build his against.

I blame the other two players so I want to teach them a lesson of their own.

So the HE player needs a list, im not 100% how to play one so how to construct one is also amiss to me. 2k would be great but with the models he has i dont know what to do.

Anyway my idea is:

Teclis
Maybe a Dragon Mage or something
1 or 2 lvl 2 mages

Spear unit
Archers
Sword Masters (The reason the he started playing)
Bolt Throwers
Shadow Warriors
SilverHelms

Sadly this is basically the extent of what he owns, so I am really struggling to piece an army together.

I think a static stand and whittle down the opponent list is going to work better, leaning to magic/shooting heavy.

If anyone has any input that would be great, sorry for the long post but I hope someone can help.


Thanks in advance.


Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:00 pm
Profile
Corsair
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8743
Location: Hag Graef
Post 
Can't help you about playing against VCs and DoC, I don't know them (lucky me).

When I play against my son's HE, I usually loose.
He takes a dragon, either a flame wizard level 2 (makes a deadly magic phase along with a level 4), or a master with the lance-which-works-like-a-bolt-thrower.

Strong magic means strong magic defense for HE. Take all 3 spell casters!

Shooting is nice: their RBTs are as good as ours.
Their bowmen are not as nice as our RXBmen but still are deadly and shoot very far.

I hate their 18"-charge cheap chariot.
The Prince Dragon are impressive, and I've seen them charging across woods.

Eagle is just good for march-blocking, but does it well.

Finally, the babysitters are impressive: you don't want to face swordsmen, especially with a hero who has the ring-of-becoming-level1-with-Beast-Lore#1.

Did I mentioned that the axemen are resistant to fire?

I've never been impressed by spears, and never faced shadows.

Shooty/magic balance is deadly, especially since the opponents are not shooters themselves.

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:39 pm
Profile
Assassin

Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:33 pm
Posts: 539
Post 
I would imagine shooting as HE vs VC should be effective to thin out ranks before engaging with swords or knights. And depending on how the VC plays with his necros and vampires, use the eagle to hunt them down. I play VC a lot, tis my cousin's army, so shooting works wonders vs him, as well as black horror however I know the HE does not get this. I use my bolt thrower against his vargulf and within the first turn I had 3 wounds with the single bolt on the vargulf, I was lucky there were no saves. But targeting his vargulf with my RBT made my cousin run his vargulf back behind his line out of line of site. The HE should also be able to build a very powerful atno magic list to counter all the cast dice of VC. I'm not sure how drain magic works but HE do get +1 when dispelling. As far as demons go I have no idea, I don't ever play them or know anyone who does.


Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:58 pm
Profile
Warrior

Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:32 am
Posts: 66
Location: Central Europe
Post 
First of all, Teclis is sick. One of the most powerful SCs around and well worth his points. If you're making a cheesy list, I'd say go all out on magic-ranged heavy with some cc support units. One of my mates I play quite often plays HE (and I painted half of his army) so here's a bit from me:

-Teclis is sick. Period. If you take him+some mages and a banner of sorcery you probably won the game before you deploy, unless you have some serious bad luck with dice.

-Dragon lord is good. HE have the best dragon around and what my mate usually puts on is a lord with some pendant that makes him re-roll all to hit rolls, all to wound rolls and enemy re-rolls passed armour saves. Granted, doesn't sound like much with 4 attacks and str 4 but this crap can be combined with a weapon that gives him +3 attacks. Also remember it does only work for one phase, but you can fight two close combats in one phase so some careful positioning should ensure he runs down two units.

-Mages are good and all items are cheaper then usual, so more juicy combinations.

-Archers are ok, but nothing to write home about. Good for laying down some support fire.

-Spearmen are good and solid, make sure they're at least 6 wide and a big enough block. Sure, they're str 3 but 18 asf attacks are nothing to sneeze at.

-Lothren sea guard are a bit half hearted imo, but would work well if you knew you'd have a hill to deploy them 2x6 or 2x5 on.

-Swordmasters are the shiz! Most of the time, the only chance to bring them down is to shoot them, unless you have asf and initiative 6+ yourself (black guard ;) ). When I play my VC and I know I'll be facing high elves, I made a special hero for them. It's a vampire bsb with armour that makes everyone in BTB lose asf and have their initiative reduced to 1, hates everyone all rounds of close combat, has black periapt (so he doesn't waste his power dice) and sword of battle. Then either +1 more to combat resolution or some armour. That's 4 str 5 attacks, re roll to hit that will always strike first. But back to swordmasters. My mate usually runs them 2x7 with a banner that makes the immune to fear and terror. Effectively giving them ITP of sorts in combat with the ability to flee. Nice!

-White lions are cool but not as much as sword masters. They can survive a good amount of missile fire and have str 4 with great weapons, but compared to swordmasters they only have 1 attack, while swordmasters have 2. The big thing with them is stubborn, but if you're losing combats with high elves you're probably doing something wrong anyway. It does help to eat an occasional chariot but you better have a counter charge ready.

-Phoenix guard cause fear, have halberds and a 4+ ward save. My mate usually uses them as bunker for both his mages, because few people (bar mortars) are dumb enough to shoot in them. It's just not worth it. Lategame, when we're all running out of units, mages (if still alive) leave the unit and they become a nice solid fear causing block. With asf. Oh yeah, they're a great unit to bear the banner of sorcery (yes, they don't have to take bsb for such stupid banners stupid crappy elves...) and the champ has an item that gives you +1 on the roll for the first turn. Excuse me while I go puke now.

-Lion chariots hit like a ton of bricks covered in razor blades and a unit such as that is always nice to have around. They also cause fear and I hate them. Our saving grace is that they cost 140 pts which is a lot. The model is also very nice and makes me wanna smash it whenever I see it out of pure envy.

-Eagles are great for marchblocking and warmachine hunting. With toughness 4 and 3 wounds, they can also take a bit of punishment before they go down and at 50 pts each, they're a bargain.

-RBT are godsent and altough a bit expensive we usually field 1/1000 pts as rule of the thumb.

I've never seen elven cav or tiranoc chariots in action because my high elf buddy says they're not good enough. Here's my reasoning. Unless you're doing impact hits, high elves will strike you first. Because of this, it doesn't matter if I charge them or they charge me, because the main advantage of the charge is lost anyway so the best thing to do with high elves is play like a cu*t and just position your units and wait for your opponent to snap a nerve and charge. Let's put a unit of witch elves or executioners against any unit in the high elf army, meant for combat and see what happens. That's right, disaster. Stupid asf saps my will to fight and gives me a very good idea of where eternal hatered comes from.

Sorry, off topic. The point is, dispite asf and all their shiny stuff, all HE are very expensive. coming at a 15pts for any special model, the army is fairly small and is shot down quickly. If your opponent lacks shooting and goes magic&shooting heavy though, they're an awesome counter for some of the best armies out there *cough* VC *cough*, because your opponent will just sit there, try to summon enough back while you're killing with glee and cockblocking his magic (drain magic =/), while utilising your own.

Rork edit: Do not use bad language, even disguised.

_________________
A man cannot drink from a mirage, but he can drown in it.


Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:25 pm
Profile WWW
Highborn

Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:04 pm
Posts: 638
Post 
Great posts just what I needed, I knew Teclis was sick and I think with 1 or 2 lvl 2s the VC will have a head ache. The Chaos don’t bother me and the player is slightly reckless in his approach (which suits Chaos).

Is a list with Teclis, Dragon Mage and lvl 2 on foot viable or is the DM + Teclis too big a point sink for it’s worth? I know 6-8 levels of magic would overwhelm most armies but does the Dragon make it less optimal?
What lore’s should the HE use? Their High magic seems a bit feeble and defensive, though the Arrow Attraction spell could couple nicely with his list. Fire seems the best lore for Teclis as none of the spells are useless as in some lore’s they are. Do all HE get Drain Magic like DE get PoD? Teclis with Fire and lvl2 with High could be good, then the 3rd mage takes maybe Fire again or something else? If the 3rd Mage is on a Dragon is there a Special Fire Dragon Mage I’ve read about? I don’t have or own the HE book so most things are from memory.

I think magic is the best way for my mate to go and Teclis will make it very easy for him. He has limited units though, I would put Teclis in Spears and the lvl 2 in the Archers. 1 more mage would be amazing but where can he go, on a Dragon would be good, though perhaps to vulnerable? He could be mounted on a Steed and put in a Silver Helm unit, portable bunker so to speak, +2 AS is good for their cost.

2 Bolt Throwers seems the standard along with the SM, though I think even if they were HE most unused unit he would still field them because he loves them. Would HE run SM like exe’s? 2x7 with champ and nothing else? Or do SM prefer banners and magical items + Ranks?

The VC just uses a summon spam list so casts like 4-5 spells a turn trying to make more units or heal up units, it’s the most annoying list to play. Needing 3+ on a spell to raise about 7 zombies, it’s so annoying, you need like 9DD to counter his list and the Lord is bunkered so well you need to commit like 3 units to opening him up. Im unsure how effective HE shooting will be vs that, 10 archer +2 BT is only 32 shots a turn, not done the math but that’s not a lot of kills. The magic might shine through then but I suppose the lore is what makes or breaks it.

Anyway, so far the posts have been useful, though I think a sit down with the player and an out lay of ideas might be good, a semi written list may prove as a good aid and then I’ll bash some convincing figures together to help sway my opponent.


Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:23 pm
Profile
Cold One Knight

Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:27 pm
Posts: 229
Location: Yorkhire, The True North!
Post 
Its a shame that he is coming against Vc's and Chaos, becuase otherwise i'd say load out on Phoenix guard and lots of magic.

High Elves have a very powerful range of spells, ranging from potent destructive spells to more than impressive buffing spells (5+ ward and stubborn!).

Phoenix guard with a 4+ ward save are able to take on pretty much anything and surive for at least at turn, they only should fear units that have an immense amount of attacks.

Swordmasters are possibly the most potent offensive infantry in the game, able to dish out an inpressive amount of high strength attacks, combined with ASF and high WS, it is a foolish general who throws his troops headlong into a waiting unit of these deadly troops.

The problem that your friend sounds like he has is that his fighting spirit has been truly shattered. The best general is useless if he has neither the motivation or desire to win. If you go to the table with the idea that you are going to lose, then 98% of the time, you will!

As well as trying to raise his spirits (beer if he is old enough!), check if he goes onto other forums (asur as i believe it is for our poncy do-goody cousins!). Also, if the other two gamers are pure power gamers, make sure he does not feel guilty about fielding powerful, dodgy, cheesy armies, as long as they are not illegal.

Against you, allow him to use spearmen or what models he has as "counts as" troops. This will allow him to get a feel of units he likes and develop a playing style that suits him best.(at the end of the day, we all dont play or like the same things, i love big units of cold one knights, some (probably most) players start sewating at the prospect of spending a huge chunk of points of 12+ unit of CoK's)). For a few games it might be a little bizzare, his spearmen actually really being White Lions, but me and my best friend who commonly play round at my house (when the wife lets it)), allow units to count as. As long as you use the same size bases and they are not ridiculous, (i.e space marines being goblins!). It is a good, fun way to let new players, or even more experienced ones, develop new armies without having to stump up 100+ quid.

Just my idea's.

Regards

DAnte


Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:30 pm
Profile
Highborn

Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:04 pm
Posts: 638
Post 
Ok so i will add a little update here on my mate and the progress, made him what i consider to be a hard HE list to beat.

Teclis

Dragon Mage
+1 spell, Bound Fury of Khaine spell

BSB Banner of Sorcery

10 Archers

14 Spears
FC

5 Silver Helms

5 Shadow Warriors

12 Sword Masters
FC, Immune to Terror/ Fear Banner
The add +1 to go first Magic item

x2 Bolt Throwers

That’s the list i don’t think i missed anything, what does everyone think of the list is it quite a nasty one or can it be better?
I think the list is solid the amount of PD and DD he can make is frightening. 8 for this 2 mages and army pool then x2 D3 extra dice and then the DM add’s +1 dice to all casts and he has a bound spell in there, no amount of DD can stop that, ROH would go some way but luckily Chaos and VC don’t get that little toy.

I played him with a rather weak DE list with no heavy hitters or magic items, just took him through the turns step by step and the game was basically over by end of turn 4. He was pumping out so much magic and even after i took the Dragon Mage down Telis could still hold the list together. At the end of the game he was 1000 points still left on the board and i had like a unit of 10 Warriors.

Anyone got any feedback on the list i made for him? I’m playing him again soon with a harder DE list as when i tested his list vs mine by best AS was 5+ so you can really see how weak my list was.
Now he’s had a good solid victory i hope he’ll be a bit more confident and be up for playing.

Thanks for any comments anyone has.


Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:31 pm
Profile
Corsair
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8743
Location: Hag Graef
Post 
Good luck to beat that!

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:11 pm
Profile
Highborn

Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:04 pm
Posts: 638
Post 
Oh dear…….. have I become the mad scientist that has created a monster that I cannot beat?

The list plays like a semi gun line, the Shadow Warriors and the Silver Helms go down one flank backed up by the Dragon Mage to try and punch through lines and get behind, I envisioned the Silver Helms as a diversion semi expandable unit, getting the Dragon behind the opponent is the task of this small force. If the Shadow Warriors get behind along with the Dragon you have 2 March blockers who can deal some damage and cause real problems.
Back up of this plan is if the Mage dies you could still have a Dragon free to move behind you or at worse case frenzied in the back of an expensive unit.

Spearmen protecting Teclis and the Sword Masters ready to Charge or receive one to get Teclis 1 more round of magic is a good way to keep the magic phase ticking.

Archers and 2 BT thin out numbers quickly.

I don’t see many armies being able to commit units head on into this tightly packed section of the battle field. I think the list is a bit one dimensional though and I would get tired of playing it, I might get frustrated at trying to beat it too. Im going to use an all-round list against his, I think if I can beat it that way I’ll b happy.

Wouldn’t do well at a tournament though as armies need to be achieving objectives not hiding in a corer. And I assume the comp score of this would basically be maxed out.

Any more views on the list?


Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:35 pm
Profile
Cold One Knight

Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:27 pm
Posts: 229
Location: Yorkhire, The True North!
Post 
I like it!

Its got enough hitting units to cause trouble without it being a silly fast cav/scout list!

My personnel preferance would be the Dragon Mage, i have never seen them do much and on the odd occasion i have taken them they have died in seconds!

I think as time develops he should move away from using teclis, but as a starting force, i think it will take a lot of careful manouvering (and a ring of hotek) to defeat.

Still, im sure that the druchii have more than adequate resources at our disposal to vanquish him! Chariots might do the job!

Regards

D

(p.s, let us know how he develops it, and the results of his games)


Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:08 pm
Profile
Trainee Warrior
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:06 am
Posts: 28
Location: Albion
Post 
What have you done...
I used to be that exact same High Elf player, same problem, and I got out of the rut by bringing my enemies down from the power-gaming pedestal, not by fighting fire with fire!

Well done for your noble intent, I've no doubt you'll be able to have a more even spread of gaming now...

But seriously, stop playing with power armies! Have a siege for a change, maybe a couple of Border Patrol games, they're a lot of fun when Pitched Battles are the usual fayre week-in-week-out.


Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:23 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:31 pm
Posts: 3023
Location: The Tower of Dust
Post 
Arellion Sapher wrote:
What have you done...
I used to be that exact same High Elf player, same problem, and I got out of the rut by bringing my enemies down from the power-gaming pedestal, not by fighting fire with fire!

Well done for your noble intent, I've no doubt you'll be able to have a more even spread of gaming now...

But seriously, stop playing with power armies! Have a siege for a change, maybe a couple of Border Patrol games, they're a lot of fun when Pitched Battles are the usual fayre week-in-week-out.


I know what you mean. My woodie opponent would run treekin and treemen at 1500 with the rest of the army being dryads and wardancers. The store staff basically told him he can't play woodies anymore and he has since built a WoC list which is somewhat less painful to play against. He is one of those annoying young powergamer/rules lawyers that dosen't own the the rulebook, so everything is an argument unless you go to the trouble of proving him wrong 20 times a game by looking the rule up. I try to avod playing him because I have never beaten him with my warm and fuzzy DE lists.

_________________
"Luck is the residue of design"


Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:57 pm
Profile
Trainee Warrior
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:06 am
Posts: 28
Location: Albion
Post 
I think razing Athel Loren to the ground would be a great way of reuniting the civilised Elf Races.


Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:59 pm
Profile
Highborn

Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:04 pm
Posts: 638
Post 
Arellion Sapher wrote:
What have you done...
I used to be that exact same High Elf player, same problem, and I got out of the rut by bringing my enemies down from the power-gaming pedestal, not by fighting fire with fire!

Well done for your noble intent, I've no doubt you'll be able to have a more even spread of gaming now...

But seriously, stop playing with power armies! Have a siege for a change, maybe a couple of Border Patrol games, they're a lot of fun when Pitched Battles are the usual fayre week-in-week-out.


Liking the feed back on the list, if this list can go toe to toe with the two other power gamers of our group and knock them from the top spot then it’s job done.

If their most powerful lists have a head ache going against this then that’s good, im desperately trying to invoke some friendly gamming but it’s so hard with the VC and DOC armies always fielding their very best. We tried a campaign but it ended after turn 2 as it was apparent is was going to be VC and DoC double teaming the other 3 players and ending up unbeatable.

Tried some small games as well 500-750 but I just get complaints from VC that they cant field anything substantial so there for cant compete and will lose followed by ‘what’s the point in me playing?’. A challenge is always a good reason to play, but for him if it’s not 100% win it isn’t worth playing. Which in real life is the attitude a general would have, not sending h is men to battle to die just for the sake of attendance. But this game isn’t real life it’s a game. So I play for fun, but now I’ve had to start making uber power armies for other players just so everyone can be on a level playing field.

Rabidnid wrote:
I know what you mean. My woodie opponent would run treekin and treemen at 1500 with the rest of the army being dryads and wardancers. The store staff basically told him he can't play woodies anymore and he has since built a WoC list which is somewhat less painful to play against. He is one of those annoying young powergamer/rules lawyers that dosen't own the the rulebook, so everything is an argument unless you go to the trouble of proving him wrong 20 times a game by looking the rule up. I try to avod playing him because I have never beaten him with my warm and fuzzy DE lists.


Seems you have a player with the same mentality of one of mine, I would consider early 20s enough time in life to gain some maturity and play for fun and a little fairness. Sadly my HE player cant avoid playing this person because then his gaming pool is just me, and DE week in week out would get tedious.

At any rate im playing the same He list tonight but im throwing in a bit more of a challenge and im not allowing him to favour the scenery to him, I’ll still tell him the consequences of what he is doing if he is going to make some dire mistake. But apart from all that I’ll be putting a good competitive show on. I’ll post my list now and later on the result, comments are welcome on my list but I have tried to go for a soft all-rounder.
Sorceress lvl 2
DS, Darkstar Cloak

Sorceress lvl 2
Dagger, DS

Sorceress lvl 2
TOF, Power Stone, Steed

Master
HA, SDC, S, Lance
CO, Ring of Darkness (The Half BS ring)

3 x 20 Warriors
FC, S

2 x 5 DR
RxB, M

2 x 5 Harpies

5 Shades
AHW

5 CoK
FC, Null
Standard of Slaughter

Hydra

So that’s the list, I didn’t want to take the Hydra but the HE player is using both my Bolt Throwers so I can’t really use them as well. This list is spawned mostly from my anger at the ‘Are Druchii Broken?’ Thread in the Discussion section, im not opening debate here but this list contains nothing that is underlined as broken in that Thread, bar the Hydra, but im taking him because I have no more models with me and I need the points, that’s why I have 4 hero’s too. I think the list is soft and competitive, I want to move up with my lists strengths against the HE player as not to let him have the first victory then completely pick him apart in the 2nd match up.

Comments on the list are welcome but im not going to change anything really, it’s a one off fun list (or I hope it will be). This list is a step up from the last which contained Hero’s but with no magical items, it now has CoK, Shades and a Hydra so it actually has some punch. The HE player took great pleasure in shooting and magicing my massive Warrior blocks last time so im going to bring them again, for 465 for the lot it’s worth it I think. The HE player knows im bringing CoK, Hydra and Shades, I left him my book so he could read up. I left him with the message that he should look beyond the stat line and look at how his army can beat each of the new harder threats.

Sorry for the long post I don’t think it is excessive, as it outlines what im trying to achieve and that in some way I am getting towards my goal.

Incoming comments are still welcomed and appreciated, Thanks for input so far all.


Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:07 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:31 pm
Posts: 3023
Location: The Tower of Dust
Post 
Katon Edios wrote:
So that’s the list, I didn’t want to take the Hydra but the HE player is using both my Bolt Throwers so I can’t really use them as well. This list is spawned mostly from my anger at the ‘Are Druchii Broken?’ Thread in the Discussion section, im not opening debate here but this list contains nothing that is underlined as broken in that Thread, bar the Hydra, but im taking him because I have no more models with me and I need the points, that’s why I have 4 hero’s too. I think the list is soft and competitive, I want to move up with my lists strengths against the HE player as not to let him have the first victory then completely pick him apart in the 2nd match up.


I wouldn't worry too much about being broken. HE were completely "broken" when they appeared, but never get a mention these days. PoK combined with a good armour save is about the limit of our broken-ness. Our magic is strong but 2 edged, hatred has its own disadvantages and we are a massively fast and flexible list, with the usual elf limit of being T-3 with very low armour saves outside our characters.

Hydras are a good choice against HE anyway, and though they are under pointed, their are not otherwise hard to deal with.

_________________
"Luck is the residue of design"


Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:29 pm
Profile
Highborn

Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:04 pm
Posts: 638
Post 
Ok so I have just come back from my mates 2nd test of his list, I fielded the above mentioned list which is more completive than the first he faced but not too over powering. I’ll go through the battle and see what everyone thinks.

Terrain was favourable to neither side really, though it did help me win.

His deployment was a bit messed up so contributed to a difficult game. He had in his Deployment zone a Tower and I also said he could set up a hill where ever he wanted as we only have flat game board so don’t usually have hills, but 90% of boards I’ve played else where do. He put the hill next to the Tower and attempted to castle on the hill and house his archer in the Tower.

From left to right he had, Sword Masters with BSB, Archers (In Tower), Spearmen with Teclis, x2 BT on the hill and Silver Helms to the right of them and the DM also on the right. Out from his deployment zone was a forest so he stuck the Shadow Warriors behind it.

On my side there was a Farm some 10” away from my deployment opposite his Tower, and then further down a forest opposite the one his SW were in.
I placed my 3 Spear units and 2 Sorceresses opposite his main section, aiming to just get forward and cause problems. I had a 20 man unit in front and the other 2 units with Sorceresses coming behind, but having the Sorceresses on the end and out in a triangle formation so I could still draw LOS.
Next to the Spears I placed my Hydra so at turn 1 he could dive into the forest. 1 Harpies and DR stayed behind the Spears and the other DR and Harpies unit took the mounted Sorceress down the right flank back up with my CoK unit. Shades went behind the Farm.

HE took high magic on Teclis and DM had fire, he got fireball, fire blast and another I cant remember but never got it off.

I took Dark on all 3 and got 1 and 6 and 1 and 4 on the 2 foot Sorceresses and 1,2 and 5 on the mounted.

HE Turn1
HE took turn 1 and shuffled around a bit and brought his SM to the front section of the Tower so they could protect Teclis better (Bad Deployment). The Archer hid in the Tower and the SW moved into their forest. The DM flew forward a bit and he kept the SH back even though I told him he should do something with them.
Shooting saw the BT targeting the Hydra and doing nothing and the DM killed a few Spears and Teclis just ward saved a unit as he was out of range of anything.

DE Turn 1
I moved all my Spears at full speed, Hydra dived into the forest and the mounted Sorceress went with everything full speed up the flank. My other DR and Harpies moved around my back lines waiting for the DM and the Shades stayed put waiting for the same.
Magic killed to SW and stopped them shooting next turn. Rest was dispelled. Shooting saw 4 SH die and that was Turn 1.

HE Turn 2
The lone SH charged my DR and survives the Stand and Shoot and passes his break test to hold them for a turn. The SW move back to the hill and the SM move a bit more and start moving towards me. The DM fly’s behind the farm to try and magic the Spears.
DM Fireballs and Fire Blasts the Spears with the Sorceress in, I let them all go has I have 5 DD and he as 12 PD. The Spears stay put and Teclis casts a IF Vauls Unmaking and fury of Khaine on the other Spear unit with Sorceress. They take 12 casualties and hold. Curse of Arrow Attraction goes off and I fail to Dispel Drain Magic. Dragon flames the larger of the 2 Sorceress units they take a wound and panic and run. The BT shoot at the Hydra, both do no wounds. The Archers have no target.

DE Turn 2
I rally my running Spearmen, on the right flank my Harpies charge the lone SH to end that combat quickly. Everything on that side runs straight up and the remaining two units of Spears move forward, I move the DR to shoot at the Dragon and the other Harpie unit hides behind a Spear unit for a Turn 3 BT charge. Hydra darts from one forest to the next and it about 14” from the BT hill.
Magic uneventful, I Chillwind a BT and kill 1 crew and I Chillwind the DM but Telis Dispels, I retain the spell. Combined Shade and DR shooting does a wound on the Dragon and Mage.
Combat with the SH end with him breaking and my DR and harpies moving right near his BT hill.

HE Turn 3
The DM moves further behind my army and looks to flame my Spear unit with Sorceress that tried to cast Chillwind on him.
Magic seen the DM fail to cast all but FireBall and that kills 3 Spears. Teclis gives a ward to the SM again and then tries to cast Vauls and Fury but miscasts on both, no effect first time due to items, 2nd is a wound to Teclis. Curse of Arrow attraction is Dispelled and he has no dice for drain magic, he leaves his bound spell as I have 2 DD left.
Shooting from 2 BT does 1 wound on Hydra and 10 Archers shoot my 20 man Spear unit for no casualties.
DM flames the Sorceress unit and they panic too, his Terror runs the Shades away too.

DE Turn 3
5 Harpies from behind the Spears charge the full crew BT.
Spears rally and the first fleeing unit comes in range of the DM to try and bring it down for some revenge.
The Hydra moves from the last forest and is at the foot of the hill, the right flank completely close in and meet with the Hydra.
Large Spear unit moves right up to Teclis’s unit and the DR who were dealing with the DM move to redirect a SM charge from the rear of the Spear unit at Teclis’s door.
Magic sees the Mounted Sorceress get Soul Stealer off on the DM wounding each and the Mage goes down, Dragon goes frenzied.
Mounted Sorceresses DR unit kill the enraged Dragon and the other DR unit shoot the SM, but none die thanks to ward save.
Hydra Flames 3 SW on the hill and they are dead. 2 BT pass Terror.
Harpies BT combat is drawn 1 kill each side.

HE Turn 4
No charges
Magic sees Teclis wound my Sorceress in one of the Spear units and bring them down to 9 models with Fury of Khaine. He gets Arrow attraction off on Hydra and re wards the SM, I dispel Drain Magic.
Shooting from the Archers kill 3 DR in the mounted Sorceress unit and wounds her, lone BT shoots at Hydra but no wounds.

DE Turn 4
Hydra Charges BT and 20 man Spear unit Charges Teclis unit but they flee 10” so failed charge. SM wheel to go back toward Teclis and the Tower.
All my magic is Dispelled.
Shooting from both DR units kill 2 SM.
Harpies finish BT off and Hydra kills his other and overruns nearer to Fleeing Teclis, 5 Harpies unit joins Hydra to try and catch Teclis.

HE Turn 5
Telcis unit rallies.
He recasts ward save on SM, Curse of Arrows on 20 man Spear unit and Fury of Khains the same unit, I Dispel Vauls and Drain Magic.
Magic + shooting kills 12 Spearmen, they pass panic.
SM get closer to the Tower and wheel to face off incoming Spear reinforcements.

DE Turn 5
Hydra moves to the side of Teclis’s unit and the Harpies move behind to stop them fleeing again.
DR with Sorceress get into a good bait/casting position. Both Spear units with Sorceresses move up to cast on the SM.
Magic sees a Blade Wind Miscast kill the Sorceress with 1 wound and gives Telis a free spell, he goes for Vauls and I use all me PD to dispel and phase over.

HE Turn 6
Teclis unit charges my small Spear unit, SM charge the DR unit with Sorceress but clips a harpie unit and they are sent off the wrong way.
Archer charge to help Teclis unit.
I let Ward Save spell go off and Stubborn spell for Teclis unit, I Dispel rest.
Combat sees Teclis kill none and take none in return I lose by 2 but pass. Archers the same.

DE Turn 6
Hydra charges Teclis unit along with Haprpies. CoK unit Charge SM and full DR unit go in the back. Other spears try charge the SM but fail.
Magic seen me draw all his DD then cast Black Horror with 3 PD and 2 from a Power Stone. Takes SM down to 4 men and the BSB.
Archers and Teclis kill 2 Spears Hydra + rest kill all bar Teclis, Teclis runs and is caught by Hydra.
CoK take no wounds, Master kills BSB and CoK kill rest of SM

End of turn 6 and everything on the HE side is dead.

A reversal of fortune this time as last time it was over on turn 4 and I had nothing.
I think there were some mistakes from the HE player, my experience with my army and units was something that helped me. His magic is extremely good though sloppiness with spell selection on units and placing at the start was his un doing.
The Hydra I think was too much, though his DM could have killed it he decided to go for the more squishy targets. I think the list I fielded was fair and competitively fun. Any input on that would be great though, I wouldn’t class what I fielded as overpowering or WAAC style.

After I talked him through his deployment and that though the building is good not all games will you get one, especially in your deployment zone. Though I think his list was solid he had complaints with it, though on the first time around with a victory he has happy with it. I spent a good hour explaining that through he wants a Dragon price he lacks the units to back him up and is wasting points and making his gamming experience for victory incredibly hard.

I worked through the problems he believes he has with the list and though I cant 100% convince him that his idea of a HE army is a poor set up he insist on trying it next time we play.

Compared to his current list we went through his problems with this one and changed it slightly.

Teclis

Dragon Mage
+1 spell, Bound Fury of Khaine spell

Lvl 2 Mage
Annluian Crystals

10 Archers

14 Spears
FC

5 Silver Helms

5 Shadow Warriors

12 Sword Masters
FC, Banner of Sorcery

x2 Bolt Throwers

He wanted to keep the Sorcery Banner, though I don’t think the list needs it.
He feels the list needs more punch and wanted a Noble on Steed to be able to Charge out and kill everything. This is part of the hour I spent going through the math and that no matter how amazing you make some one if they only have 3 attacks you can only generate 3 wounds. In the end he has settled for a lvl 2 Mage so that he can take 3 Lore’s of Magic and completely control the magic phase.

I think the list is somewhat weakened due to the loss of the Lion Standard on the SM even though he has gained a Mage. But at the end of the day this is not my army I am merely helping him develop. If he does want to take a Prince on Dragon then he will sadly repeat history vs the Chaos and VC player.

I think it was a combination of things in the battle that caused him the loss, im playing him a few more times, one with the newly developed list and once with what ever he can cook up. If people say mine is a fair list then I will keep it unchanged, if the 60 warrior combo is in someway broken or unfair can some one tells me and I’ll adjust to a more friendly build.

Thanks for reading all. Sorry the Battle Rep isn’t up to the Standards the Battle Report thread normal likes but it’s all from memory with no notes.

Any comments on anything to do with this thread would be great, thanks.


Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:25 pm
Profile
Black Guard
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:06 pm
Posts: 286
Location: Bay Area, California
Post 
Winning with magic looks easy, but it is hard to master. Lore selection is huge, but takeing the fire mage eliminates options. Teclis needs to select the lore that will have one spell that will gut the opposing army when he casts it irresistably on 4 dice.

Against you I might take metal.. your knights and master are toast, and the 2d6 S4 firey magic missle can hurt the hydra well enough.

Against VC.. drain magic for the irresistable IMO.


Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:42 pm
Profile WWW
Warrior
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:19 pm
Posts: 55
Location: Sweden
Post 
Katon Edios wrote:
Tried some small games as well 500-750 but I just get complaints from VC that they cant field anything substantial so there for cant compete and will lose followed by ‘what’s the point in me playing?’. A challenge is always a good reason to play, but for him if it’s not 100% win it isn’t worth playing. Which in real life is the attitude a general would have, not sending h is men to battle to die just for the sake of attendance. But this game isn’t real life it’s a game. So I play for fun, but now I’ve had to start making uber power armies for other players just so everyone can be on a level playing field.


First of, What are you doing you traitor. You can't help someone who is playing HE ;) but second to that Can't you just refuse to play with him, i mean if he dosn't want to play on even grounds then say no. Or meat him halfway and make him agree to occasionally produce a diffrent army list which is less competetive.

_________________
My Painting Log


Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:30 am
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 18 posts ] 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software