Hi!I'm new to warhammer and i'd like to know several things regarding rules and DE strategies:
1 - a unit with 3 Attacks can shoot twice? like for example an assassin with repeater handbow has A3 can shoot 3 (for attack) times 2 (for repeater handbow)??
2 - i've been reading in some forums and most of them say that the shooting phase isn't powerfull, as you dont get many kills per shooting phase. is it worth to still get Rxbow's in your army? if so how many would you have in a 1500 points army?
3 - one of the things i liked in DE armies is the fact of having RXBow's a good mix of sorcerers combined with harpies hydras and Witch elves. i'd like to know if its viable to have 1 or more dark riders units with rxbows just to take advantage of free reforms as fast cavalries and be able to kite and shoot. my will was to make an army with harpies for rear attacking, hydras to hold enemy units, rxbows like explained above to harass, 1 or 2 sorcerer's with a lore to kill more and buff/hex less, a dreadlord on pegasus cause it seems to be a pain in the ass and good to kill enemy warmachines and some witch elves with a cauldron. Can i get some opinion on how viable would it be and how could i improve it?
sorry for my english. Ty
New guy here ! with some weird doubts
Moderator: The Dread Knights
1 - The number of times a model can shoot is defined by the weapon not the A characteristic. So a model with a repeater handbow can shoot twice (multishotting), while a model with a bow can shoot once. (The default number of shots for a weapon is 1, unless the weapon entry specifies otherwise). The A characteristic refers to close combat only.
2 - This is subjective. Some people swear by the power of massed RxB units, others swear by their ineffectiveness. I trend towards the latter, but always take a small unit if I can for dealing with enemy fast troops. My 3k army has one unit of 14 RxBs, if that's any indication of how many I recommend for 1.5k.
3. Again, this is subjective. I like Dark Riders and run two units in my 3k army. They are good for running around enemy flanks and shooting things on the move. Others don't like them because they cost more than alternative fast troops such as shades and harpies. Your proposed list seems okay, except it lacks any substance. You have no hammer unit (e.g. cold one knights. blackguard, executioners, etc) and no anvil unit (e.g. big block of warriors), although I suppose a big unit of RxBs could fill the anvil role.
Don't worry about getting your English perfect (although try your best to do so, it makes it easier for other forum users to read and respond to your questions), but do try to avoid abbreviations like 'ty' for thank you: write the full word out instead.
2 - This is subjective. Some people swear by the power of massed RxB units, others swear by their ineffectiveness. I trend towards the latter, but always take a small unit if I can for dealing with enemy fast troops. My 3k army has one unit of 14 RxBs, if that's any indication of how many I recommend for 1.5k.
3. Again, this is subjective. I like Dark Riders and run two units in my 3k army. They are good for running around enemy flanks and shooting things on the move. Others don't like them because they cost more than alternative fast troops such as shades and harpies. Your proposed list seems okay, except it lacks any substance. You have no hammer unit (e.g. cold one knights. blackguard, executioners, etc) and no anvil unit (e.g. big block of warriors), although I suppose a big unit of RxBs could fill the anvil role.
Don't worry about getting your English perfect (although try your best to do so, it makes it easier for other forum users to read and respond to your questions), but do try to avoid abbreviations like 'ty' for thank you: write the full word out instead.
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."
Don't be a munchkin?
I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
Don't be a munchkin?
I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
Welcome Rafa to D.net! 
1. ditto.
2. Shooting is good to get rid of small units.
In the way the game is played nowadays, there is often one or two very large units, which don't care the slightest about loosing a couple of bodies.
Also, the game allows charges in the second turn, which leaves hardly any opportunity for shooters to score any kills.
As a result, shooters are often discarded and all-shooting armies are losing more often than not.
However, shooters are still useful on very agile units which can evade charges, such as Dark Riders or Shades, or on small innocuous units which are likely to be ignored, such as 10 RXBmen, or on large units which can behave in melee, such as 20 RXBmen FC & shields.
Some targets remain valuable for shooters: the small annoying units with light protection. Not every army has some, but the ones that have them make them really annoying.
3. You seem to favour the all-shooting/magic approach.
This could work only on a very evasive list, i.e. sorceresses on Pegasi, DR and Shades.
What Red... talks about is a much more balanced approach, where shooting has a secondary role and melee does most of the kills, as it has the potential to.
1. ditto.
2. Shooting is good to get rid of small units.
In the way the game is played nowadays, there is often one or two very large units, which don't care the slightest about loosing a couple of bodies.
Also, the game allows charges in the second turn, which leaves hardly any opportunity for shooters to score any kills.
As a result, shooters are often discarded and all-shooting armies are losing more often than not.
However, shooters are still useful on very agile units which can evade charges, such as Dark Riders or Shades, or on small innocuous units which are likely to be ignored, such as 10 RXBmen, or on large units which can behave in melee, such as 20 RXBmen FC & shields.
Some targets remain valuable for shooters: the small annoying units with light protection. Not every army has some, but the ones that have them make them really annoying.
3. You seem to favour the all-shooting/magic approach.
This could work only on a very evasive list, i.e. sorceresses on Pegasi, DR and Shades.
What Red... talks about is a much more balanced approach, where shooting has a secondary role and melee does most of the kills, as it has the potential to.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
Whether you want to go for a more shooty approach or not, depends on what armies you meet.
A RxB heavy army against Warriors of Chaos, and you will get molested. The same list against a close combat high elf army, and you can shoot his troops to smitherens before they get to strike you.
I agree with those who says that ranged attacks comes secondary... I'd even say tertiary, as I feel magic is more important than shooting (and in its own category).
My approach is mostly to have shades doing most of the shooty damage, and/or maybe one unit of 20 crossbowmen. As we have the luxury of great close combat troops, I tend to focus on those. Against High Elves, I usually let the magic and the shooting soften him up before I engage.
For 1500 pts... I think a small unit of crossbowmen (10ish) and a unit of 5-10 shades would be enough.
It seems like you want to go for shooting and small hitters to be able to take down your enemy. Remember that a horde from him might be able to stay on steadfast, even though he looses the combat, while if you loose soft units like harpies while your hydra is in close combat, you might end up loosing combat and flee due to his huge unit. I'd consider using a big anvil of spear elves to both break your opponents steadfast, or take on forces you need to be steadfast to hold.
A RxB heavy army against Warriors of Chaos, and you will get molested. The same list against a close combat high elf army, and you can shoot his troops to smitherens before they get to strike you.
I agree with those who says that ranged attacks comes secondary... I'd even say tertiary, as I feel magic is more important than shooting (and in its own category).
My approach is mostly to have shades doing most of the shooty damage, and/or maybe one unit of 20 crossbowmen. As we have the luxury of great close combat troops, I tend to focus on those. Against High Elves, I usually let the magic and the shooting soften him up before I engage.
For 1500 pts... I think a small unit of crossbowmen (10ish) and a unit of 5-10 shades would be enough.
It seems like you want to go for shooting and small hitters to be able to take down your enemy. Remember that a horde from him might be able to stay on steadfast, even though he looses the combat, while if you loose soft units like harpies while your hydra is in close combat, you might end up loosing combat and flee due to his huge unit. I'd consider using a big anvil of spear elves to both break your opponents steadfast, or take on forces you need to be steadfast to hold.
Personal quote: "It's better to do little damage and lose nothing than to do lots of damage and lose everything."
Final tournament score for 7th DE book in 8th edition - W/D/L: 25/5/10
Final tournament score for 7th DE book in 8th edition - W/D/L: 25/5/10
First of all i'd like to thanks for the enlightening and fast answers.
I see that shooting can be a double edged blade, but the point was to have dark raiders to kite and shoot while melee's would get in range to flank or so. Still i see that each army is an army and i'd like to know in the 1500 points bracket if something like this would work and what magic items to use:
Harpies - fast flank/rear attack
Dark riders - fast cavalry to kite and shoot RXB's ... the thing isn't to charge or to get charged but just to hit and run, to distract and annoy the enemy.
Hydra - here i'd like some more opinion since i'm new to warhammer i'd like to know how strong is the flame breath and the attacks made by the hydra against a big number of core unit, a warmachine and a single unit like a mage/sorceror/lord etc...
Witch Elves - close combat
Black Guard - close combat
for heroes/lords i'd like to know if the dread lord on pegasus is that OverPowered or the extra sorcerer can be as powerful as the dreadlord still i was thinking of having a sorcerer and a dreadlord or a 2nd sorcerer. for the heroes i'd like to know how to equip them what is best and what spells are best against who?
Still i'd like to know some opinion on assassin's and how effective are they?
Thank you so much for helping
I see that shooting can be a double edged blade, but the point was to have dark raiders to kite and shoot while melee's would get in range to flank or so. Still i see that each army is an army and i'd like to know in the 1500 points bracket if something like this would work and what magic items to use:
Harpies - fast flank/rear attack
Dark riders - fast cavalry to kite and shoot RXB's ... the thing isn't to charge or to get charged but just to hit and run, to distract and annoy the enemy.
Hydra - here i'd like some more opinion since i'm new to warhammer i'd like to know how strong is the flame breath and the attacks made by the hydra against a big number of core unit, a warmachine and a single unit like a mage/sorceror/lord etc...
Witch Elves - close combat
Black Guard - close combat
for heroes/lords i'd like to know if the dread lord on pegasus is that OverPowered or the extra sorcerer can be as powerful as the dreadlord still i was thinking of having a sorcerer and a dreadlord or a 2nd sorcerer. for the heroes i'd like to know how to equip them what is best and what spells are best against who?
Still i'd like to know some opinion on assassin's and how effective are they?
Thank you so much for helping
As soon as the hydra touches the table it gets shot at by everything on the board, which does divert missiles from your other troops but if artillery hits it then it probably
will die. I have found that using the breath weapon early on is the best strategy because it's strength is equal to the number of remaining wounds that the hydra has.
Since the hydra has many attacks, beastmasters attacks and a thunderstomp it really kills a large amount of models. It can eat through an army if it reaches cc.
will die. I have found that using the breath weapon early on is the best strategy because it's strength is equal to the number of remaining wounds that the hydra has.
Since the hydra has many attacks, beastmasters attacks and a thunderstomp it really kills a large amount of models. It can eat through an army if it reaches cc.
For the most part, close combat is the main focus in the game. Magic still has it's moments but depending on how many PD you get it might not mean much, or if you put too many dice in one spell you could nuke your own troops on accident.
It;s now more of a support role.
Shooting is the same way. Whittle down enemy numbers, and maybe cause the occational failed panic test.
Repeater crossbows work well as they get alot of shots and are armor pericing, so lightly armored troops make for perfect targets.
Bolt throwers, if you can get them, as many as you can field. One two bolts can do serious damage if not caple of killing monsters, or a couple of ranks of knights, but the multi shot capability is just irreplaceable. S4 attacks, no -1 for multiple shots, goes through 2 layers of armor (-2 armor). Even against a 2+ save, this gives you half a chance of killing a few guys.
The first question as largly been answered but I'll elaberate more on the multiple shots rule.
Normaly a weapon has one attack. In the case of most shooting weapons if it has a multiples shots it will say multiple shots with the amount like so: Multiple shots 2X
Most of the time it's 2X, such as with hand bows, repeater crossbows, or a brace of pistols. Somw times it's more then that such as with a brace of repeater hand bows give you 4x shots and the life taker gives you 3x shots.
In all cases to show how random the fire is with firing multiple shots such as with a pair of handguns, you normaly get a -1 to your to hit score.
So if my crossbowman needs 3's normaly to hit, and his guardmaster need's 2's to hit, then if they use the multiple shots they need 4's and 3's respectfully
It;s now more of a support role.
Shooting is the same way. Whittle down enemy numbers, and maybe cause the occational failed panic test.
Repeater crossbows work well as they get alot of shots and are armor pericing, so lightly armored troops make for perfect targets.
Bolt throwers, if you can get them, as many as you can field. One two bolts can do serious damage if not caple of killing monsters, or a couple of ranks of knights, but the multi shot capability is just irreplaceable. S4 attacks, no -1 for multiple shots, goes through 2 layers of armor (-2 armor). Even against a 2+ save, this gives you half a chance of killing a few guys.
The first question as largly been answered but I'll elaberate more on the multiple shots rule.
Normaly a weapon has one attack. In the case of most shooting weapons if it has a multiples shots it will say multiple shots with the amount like so: Multiple shots 2X
Most of the time it's 2X, such as with hand bows, repeater crossbows, or a brace of pistols. Somw times it's more then that such as with a brace of repeater hand bows give you 4x shots and the life taker gives you 3x shots.
In all cases to show how random the fire is with firing multiple shots such as with a pair of handguns, you normaly get a -1 to your to hit score.
So if my crossbowman needs 3's normaly to hit, and his guardmaster need's 2's to hit, then if they use the multiple shots they need 4's and 3's respectfully
Who needs sanity? I have a Hydra
Bolt throwers, if you can get them, as many as you can field. One two bolts can do serious damage if not caple of killing monsters, or a couple of ranks of knights, but the multi shot capability is just irreplaceable. S4 attacks, no -1 for multiple shots, goes through 2 layers of armor (-2 armor). Even against a 2+ save, this gives you half a chance of killing a few guys.
This approach is not really that popular tbh. RBTs are far too easy to kill in 8th ed (just two rolls of 6 on the to-wound table from shooting or magic, and even easier to kill in CC) and a round of 20 multishots from a unit of 10 RxBs is generally considered superior to 6 shots from a RBT (10 RxBs costing roughly the same). You can take one or two if you really want - particularly if you know you will up against heaviy armoured enemy cavalry or monsters - but it's usually not the best approach imo.
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."
Don't be a munchkin?
I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
Don't be a munchkin?
I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
Red... wrote:Bolt throwers, if you can get them, as many as you can field. One two bolts can do serious damage if not caple of killing monsters, or a couple of ranks of knights, but the multi shot capability is just irreplaceable. S4 attacks, no -1 for multiple shots, goes through 2 layers of armor (-2 armor). Even against a 2+ save, this gives you half a chance of killing a few guys.
This approach is not really that popular tbh. RBTs are far too easy to kill in 8th ed (just two rolls of 6 on the to-wound table from shooting or magic, and even easier to kill in CC) and a round of 20 multishots from a unit of 10 RxBs is generally considered superior to 6 shots from a RBT (10 RxBs costing roughly the same). You can take one or two if you really want - particularly if you know you will up against heaviy armoured enemy cavalry or monsters - but it's usually not the best approach imo.
Why I'm taking a hydra until I get 2 more reapers.
Who needs sanity? I have a Hydra
-
Dyvim tvar
- Lord of the Dragon Caves
- Posts: 8372
- Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:34 pm
- Location: The Dragon Caves of the Underway (Indianapolis IN)
- Contact:
saintofm wrote:Why I'm taking a hydra until I get 2 more reapers.
Much better option is a second hydra and no reapers. Reapers get very little return on investment, and they die easily.
Hydras are far more durable, and have much more offensive potential. Regarding durability, on average it takes 14.4 hits from Strength 3 missile fire to kill a Reaper. In contrast, it takes an average of 120 hits from Strength 3 missile fire to kill a Hydra. And a single breath from a hydra can get a massive number of kills. Against a ranked infantry unit on 20mm bases, you can hit 30 models from 1" away.
All this is without talking about close combat ability. It's no contest in my mind about how to use your Rare points.
This is not to say I don't like shooting. I frequently take big units of crossbows, which I also think are a more efficient use of points than Reapers.
Truly These are the End Times ...
Dyvim Tvar wrote:Much better option is a second hydra and no reapers. Reapers get very little return on investment, and they die easily.
Sorry if I didn't phrase my statement better, but I take the closes thing we have to Godzilla when I have the chance and leave the reapers alone collecting dust. When I get more in the far future, or if the new book for DE (whenever it comes out, but it's bound to happen) as more crew, then yes, I'll take them. Until then 2 aint enough.
Also, isn't taking 2 frowned upon in some stores as that's two very powerful units on the field?
Who needs sanity? I have a Hydra
saintofm wrote:Also, isn't taking 2 frowned upon in some stores as that's two very powerful units on the field?
2 RBTs? No
2 Hydras? Yes!
Personal quote: "It's better to do little damage and lose nothing than to do lots of damage and lose everything."
Final tournament score for 7th DE book in 8th edition - W/D/L: 25/5/10
Final tournament score for 7th DE book in 8th edition - W/D/L: 25/5/10