War Hydra - dumb question

[Giles the zog]

Dumb question now that I am fielding and using War Hydras:

The Beast masters cannot be targeted in Close Combat.

Therefore, I assume, in Close Combat, that the enemy have to do all 5 wounds to the Hydra, before, they can attack the Beast masters ?

TIA.

[Liquidedust]

Dumb question now that I am fielding and using War Hydras:

The Beast masters cannot be targeted in Close Combat.

Therefore, I assume, in Close Combat, that the enemy have to do all 5 wounds to the Hydra, before, they can attack the Beast masters ?

TIA.

Just treat the beastmasters as attack tokens, since your opponent cannot target them period (or use them for line sight, nor can you use them to block line of sight as far as I am aware).

You pretty much ingore the beastmasters for all porpuses cept that they grant some additional attacks in close combat.

[Daeron]

The way I understood it... You can only attack the beastmasters if they are in CC with the other unit and they have models who only touch the beastmasters. Any other model has the choice between Hydra and BM and thus must fight the Hydra.

Otherwise there would have been no point in the paragraph about "monster reaction test".

[Liquidedust]

The way I understood it... You can only attack the beastmasters if they are in CC with the other unit and they have models who only touch the beastmasters. Any other model has the choice between Hydra and BM and thus must fight the Hydra.

Otherwise there would have been no point in the paragraph about "monster reaction test".

From the Dark Elves FAQ

Page 58 – War Hydra, Special Rules.
Change the Beastmasters special rule to “ The
bulk of the War Hydra makes a great shield for the
Beastmasters that drive it, protecting them from missile fire
and close combat attacks. Wounds that would normally be
randomised between the War Hydra and its handlers are
instead all applied against the War Hydra.”

Basically, the beastmasters -cannot- be killed and are only removed once the Hydra loses it last wound. They essentially are attack counters.

Though all Monsters & handlers rules do apply to them, cept for the listed exception above in the Beastmasters rule.

[Dyvim tvar]

Daeron -- That's the way it was done in 7th Ed. There were radical changes to Monsters and Handlers in 8th.

[Giles the zog]

Hmm, ok, I guess my main issue is why the Beastmasters have their own W stat (1) (on p568, p98 and p104, implying that:
- they cannot be targeted by shooting attacks (as per the Erratta/FAQ),
- nor in CC (as per the FAQ)
- so what happens when the Hydra is dead after taking 5 wounds ?

The army book implies they have their own wound(s) as they are listed on a separate line (unlike say chariot crew p53).
The Erratta/FAQ, does not alter this.
So do the beastmasters remain ?

So I therefore assume that:
- beastmasters cannot be targeted by missile fire
- nor in CC until...
- the Hydra has been killed taking 5 wounds
- then the beastmasters can be targeted as per their individual stat lines (T+W).

(I can think of another oddity, say they get a Blade Wind spell cast on them, then therefore they could be targeted as 'champions/characters' [p63] as these are not normalised by randomisation [as per the Erratta/FAQ])

As also noted, some think that the Beastmasters when in CC and B2B contact, can be targeted (I think this is wrong).[/list]

[Liquidedust]

Hmm, ok, I guess my main issue is why the Beastmasters have their own W stat (1) (on p568, p98 and p104, implying that:
- they cannot be targeted by shooting attacks (as per the Erratta/FAQ),
- nor in CC (as per the FAQ)
- so what happens when the Hydra is dead after taking 5 wounds ?.

When the monster dies, the beastmasters are removed as per the Monsters & Handlers rule.

The army book implies they have their own wound(s) as they are listed on a separate line (unlike say chariot crew p53).
The Erratta/FAQ, does not alter this.
So do the beastmasters remain ?

No since they still adhere to the Monsters & Handlers rule, if the beasts/monster any handlers are attached to dies, they are removed from play. (this also applies to odd stuff like Squig Herds for example, which is kinda amusing)

So I therefore assume that:
- beastmasters cannot be targeted by missile fire
- nor in CC until...
- the Hydra has been killed taking 5 wounds
- then the beastmasters can be targeted as per their individual stat lines (T+W).

No since as I said above, if the Hydra dies, the beastmasters are removed from play since they are classified as handlers.

(I can think of another oddity, say they get a Blade Wind spell cast on them, then therefore they could be targeted as 'champions/characters' [p63] as these are not normalised by randomisation [as per the Erratta/FAQ])

They will hit the Hydra, since you do not randomize hits or wounds on a Hydra, as per the Monsters & Handlers rule. They all target the Hydra as per the Beastmasters rule.

As also noted, some think that the Beastmasters when in CC and B2B contact, can be targeted (I think this is wrong).

Doesn't matter if you target the beastmasters in close combat, since even if you could the attacks will automatically be directed towards the Hydra as per the Beastmasters rule.

[Dyvim tvar]

Read the monsters and handlers rule. If the hydra gets killed, they go too.

Note that other M&H units can lose handlers and the monster can be left by itself (Hellcannon, Salamander, Razordon). But handlers are never on the table without their monster.

[Liquidedust]

Read the monsters and handlers rule. If the hydra gets killed, they go too.

Note that other M&H units can lose handlers and the monster can be left by itself (Hellcannon, Salamander, Razordon). But handlers are never on the table without their monster.

Yeah our Beastmasters rule pretty much makes the beastmasters attack tokens, since they cannot be removed from play short of killing the Hydra itself.

Though there are some rules debates you might encounter in regards to this, like Pit of Shades or Purple Sun. But for that purpose just adhere to the Monsters & Handlers rule and treat them as tokens.

[Giles the zog]

Thanks, re-readng p73 of the main rule book, the final sentence is reasonably clear !

Having a separate stat line in the army book and in the main (WHFB Ed Eight) rule book does cause confusion. Seems like they need to amend the books (eventually) to make them more like chariot crew.

Interestingly, I note that on p73 of the main rule book, the wounds for monsters/handlers are randomised onto the monster or handers, *after* the wound has been taken by the monster:
"When the monster suffers an unsaved wound, roll a d6. On a roll of 1-4 the monster suffers the wound as usual, but on a roll of 5-6 a handler model is removed instead."

The DE Erratta/FAQ goes against this by stating that: "Wounds that would be randomised between the War Hydra and its handlers are instead all applied against the War Hydra."

This implies that the War Hydra never loses its handlers (Beastmasters) ?

Hmm, so I was playing the wrong rules in my last battle, as was my mate with his salamanders ! At least we were consistantly wrong !


Final dumb question - the handlers are listed as having A:2, and their scourges have an Additional Attack, so they effectively have 3 attacks each,.
So a fully unharmed Hydra gets:
- I5, A3 x 2 = 6
- I2, A7 =7
- Thunderstomp d6 attacks

[Giles the zog]

Read the monsters and handlers rule. If the hydra gets killed, they go too.

Note that other M&H units can lose handlers and the monster can be left by itself (Hellcannon, Salamander, Razordon). But handlers are never on the table without their monster.

Yeah our Beastmasters rule pretty much makes the beastmasters attack tokens, since they cannot be removed from play short of killing the Hydra itself.

Though there are some rules debates you might encounter in regards to this, like Pit of Shades or Purple Sun. But for that purpose just adhere to the Monsters & Handlers rule and treat them as tokens.

Hmm, I hear what you say, but given the difference in Initiative....
Though for simplicity I'd go with it.

[Liquidedust]

Thanks, re-readng p73 of the main rule book, the final sentence is reasonably clear !

Having a separate stat line in the army book and in the main (WHFB Ed Eight) rule book does cause confusion. Seems like they need to amend the books (eventually) to make them more like chariot crew.

Not really, it is just that our Hydra has an exception to the rule in regards to treating the handlers. Other monster + handler units can still lose they handlers for example (Squid herds, Salamanders etc . . .).

It is just our Hydra that due to the Beastmaster rule gets a very special exception in which that the handlers plain cannot be the target of pretty much anything due to the combination of the Monsters & Handlers and the Beastmasters rules.

Interestingly, I note that on p73 of the main rule book, the wounds for monsters/handlers are randomised onto the monster or handers, *after* the wound has been taken by the monster:
"When the monster suffers an unsaved wound, roll a d6. On a roll of 1-4 the monster suffers the wound as usual, but on a roll of 5-6 a handler model is removed instead."

The DE Erratta/FAQ goes against this by stating that: "Wounds that would be randomised between the War Hydra and its handlers are instead all applied against the War Hydra."

This implies that the War Hydra never loses its handlers (Beastmasters) ?

It means you do not randomly distribute the hits/wounds period, they are all allocated against the Hydra automatically. Basically the beastmasters are only removed from play when the Hydra dies.

Hmm, so I was playing the wrong rules in my last battle, as was my mate with his salamanders ! At least we were consistantly wrong !


Final dumb question - the handlers are listed as having A:2, and their scourges have an Additional Attack, so they effectively have 3 attacks each,.
So a fully unharmed Hydra gets:
- I5, A3 x 2 = 6
- I2, A7 =7
- Thunderstomp d6 attacks

Yeah RAW they have 3 Attacks each.

Hmm, I hear what you say, but given the difference in Initiative....
Though for simplicity I'd go with it.

Your handlers still attack in initative order, at their given weaponskill and strength. Which means 3 armour piercing attacks each at WS4, S3 and I5.

Then your Hydra has 7 attacks at WS4, S5 and I2, plus Thunderstomp when applicable.

[Liquidedust]

The only thing I know of that could possibly remove the beastmasters before the Hydra is Traitor-Kin from Lore of the Wild which makes the Monster attack its handlers, and even there it gets a little confusing due to possible rule conflicts between Traitor-Kin and the Beastmaster rule.

Though that would be the only way I could imagine the Hydra losing its handlers in 8th ed., and I am not even certain that the spell would work on a War Hydra unit (though it is possible).

[Giles the zog]

This makes the gift of Khaine +1A also more appesaling, 'cos you'd get =1A on the Hydra, and 2 x +1 A on the beastmasters, hadn't thought of that before (doh).

Thanks !

[Calisson]

To waste a COB blessing for 3 more attacks? Meh.
Better KB. Much, much better.