Dwarves...no longer rumored

[Gidean]

Thought this would be a good thread to discuss their new units and rules. No need to discuss 'rumors' anymore.

I'll start off with this one. Since a Runelord on an anvil becomes troop type "War machine", does this mean you can inscribe engineering runes to it?

[Haagrum]

Thought this would be a good thread to discuss their new units and rules. No need to discuss 'rumors' anymore.

I'll start off with this one. Since a Runelord on an anvil becomes troop type "War machine", does this mean you can inscribe engineering runes to it?

I'm guessing that the answer would be "No", depending on the army book entry. Anyone able to shed any light on that?

On the up side... Pit of Shades/Purple Sun/Black Horror (subject to the ward save) will all insta-gib the Anvil.

[Clockwork]

On the downside, Dwarf players who bother with 170 points of Anvil will probably be few and far between...

[Amboadine]

Well I think you could argue for this. The Runesmith entry clearly states that his troop type changes to war machine with the anvil.
Engineering runes page states dwarf warmachines can be inscribed with engineering runes.

Therefore at first glance this seems to state that this can be done.

As the runesmith has a rune allowance then I don't see why you couldn't. Why you would want to though is s different matter.

The Stalwart rune gives it +1 combat, no point in upgrading as the next level gives you unbreakable, that you already have.

Disguise would give you hard cover, but you already have a 5+ ward.

Most of the others just give help to shooting that you don't have with the anvil.

[Setomidor]

Very interesting thread, I was just about to create one myself.

I have not actually read a lot about the new dwarves, but it seems they play similar to before but with some of their strengths being emphasised. Easy access to Stubborn for infantry blocks to make them stick around, and war machines sound very potent with e.g. increased range on Organ Gun.

What I'm wondering about from a DE perspective is the choice of lore against a metagame where Dwarves are more common. Both Black Horror from Dark Magic and Purple Sun from Death are very, very good against the Dwarves (I suppose Purple Sun is even better than Black Horror), but what would you recon about the rest of the lores? Does the Dwarves have easy access to MR that would mitigate the effects of Death magic?

[Calisson]

What strikes me when reading the Dw AB is that runes will take ages to explore.
With the rules allowing to combine them, there are:
774 weapons runes or rune combo, allowing 776 different melee weapons (including no rune and GW);
103 armour runes or rune combo, allowing 104 different gromril armour (including no rune);
215 standard runes or rune combo, allowing 217 different standards (including no rune and none);
62 talisman runes or rune combo, allowing 63 different talismans (including none);
101 warmachine runes or rune combo, which may be engraved on 6 different warmachines, i.e. 612 warmachine/rune combo (including warmachines with no rune).
They will need to explore and compare 1772 legal variants. OK, more than half of them are probably meaningless. Still, that leaves many settings to explore!

Now, they could even combine them, i.e. a runelord could take 3 weapons runes, 3 armour runes, 3 talisman runes, 3 warmachine runes and benefit from being within range of a major standard rune, i.e. benefiting from up to 13 runes; of course, that would be useless and it would probably exceed the max allowance.
But you see how difficult it will be to optimize a lord, let alone a whole army!

Just with that, I expect a long learning process for Dawis to determine what combos are best adapted to their environment.

-=-=-

Does the Dwarves have easy access to MR that would mitigate the effects of Death magic?

+2 to dispel, lost if they ally with whatsoever magic-user.
Runelords/masters have MR(1) for heroes, or MR(2) for lords. They channel DD.
They can get a talisman with a spell killing rune, which is just like a scroll. Doubling that rune will make the caster forget the spell on 4+. Thanks to different combinations, you could take as many double-runes as they are Runelords.
Anvil gives +1DD. Really not worth taking.

One standard may get a major rune of Valaya (65 pts, only 1 per army), granting +2 to dispel, plus removes all "remain in play" on 3+ at beginning of dwarf turn.
This standard is available only to hammerers or BSB.

In addition, there is a rune of magic resistance for standards. One unit may get MR(3) for 45pts, several may get MR(2) for 30pts and most may get MR(1) for 15pts.
Available to longbeards, hammerers, ironbreakers, slayers and BSB. Only the BSB can combine it with rune of Valaya, due to pts cost.

Summary: expect all Dwarf armies to get one standard with rune of Valaya giving them +4 to dispel (but they never break concentration like our supreme sorc).
Expect them to have one dispel scroll rune per each runelord/runemaster.
Expect the most crucial unit to have MR(2) at least.

-=-=-

Quite worrisome: the gyros.
Fly, cannot be march-blocked (just like most Dwarf units), T5, W3, 4+.
Once per game, a bomb causes an arty dice worth of S3AP hits.
Once per turn, the steam gun uses breath template (autohits, including partial cover). S3 AP.
Alternatively, instead of steam gun, they can get a 18" WS3 S5 AP flaming D3 shots.
That's a special unit for 80pts. Up to 6 per army <3000pts.
Half of them can vanguard for 20 pts.


In complement, the gyroBombers get 1 large template, placed anywhere over a unit they flew even slightly, during the move, which deviates like a catapult.
They also get a 24" S4AP 4 shots gun. Of course, they can use both.
Fortunately, GyroB are rare, hence limited to 2, and compete against organ gun and flame gun.

The Dawi Air Force is likely to cause us problems.

[Clockwork]

I also think that Rune of Slowness is going to become veeeery popular, especially on ranged units such as Irondrakers, Thunderers or Quarrellers, who will get a Stand and Shoot and a possible second round of shooting against the charging unit, then a second Stand and Shoot, and so on (it also opens up the possibility of those same units charging instead and getting +1 S). Three Runes on a unit of Hammeres might be popular as well, except I think Valaya is going to be more like (the three Runes also seem a little mutually exclusive - either the charge is made and the enemy gets ASL, but then you've paid for a wasted reverse Swiftstride; or the charge isn't made, and you've paid for a wasted ASL...).

[Gidean]

Thought this would be a good thread to discuss their new units and rules. No need to discuss 'rumors' anymore.

I'll start off with this one. Since a Runelord on an anvil becomes troop type "War machine", does this mean you can inscribe engineering runes to it?

I'm guessing that the answer would be "No", depending on the army book entry. Anyone able to shed any light on that?

On the up side... Pit of Shades/Purple Sun/Black Horror (subject to the ward save) will all insta-gib the Anvil.

Oh yeah! Wow...Vetock really did screw over the Anvil of Doom, didn't he? Would likely be a good investment if you know you are playing O&G or Skaven (the two armies Dwarves always hate). Heck not even Skaven as they have access to Cracks Call.

The Dawi Air Force is likely to cause us problems.

Yes, I was pointing this out back on the rumor thread. Not sure how good Gyros will be in an all comers list. Mostly a nuisance against the heavy armor dudes (Chaos and Empire) but against T3 armies they can easily be game winners. I think I would try to include 3 just to deal with those annoying Skink skirmishing armies and of course Skaven and Elves. Easy to zoom around with relentless rule and able to overlap 3 flame templates per unit.

I also think that Rune of Slowness is going to become veeeery popular, especially on ranged units such as Irondrakers, Thunderers or Quarrellers, who will get a Stand and Shoot and a possible second round of shooting against the charging unit, then a second Stand and Shoot, and so on (it also opens up the possibility of those same units charging instead and getting +1 S).

Lucky for us the Thunderers and Quarrellers cannot have runic standards. So that makes the bsb hang out with them and no good Dwarf would waste his bsb like that.

[Dragon9]

It seems to me that against so many flyers, the key will be having a fast army that can get into combat with the Dwarfs as ast as possible to keep those flyers from decimating your units. A heavy cav army or at least the Banner of Swiftness on a unit you want to get there lickety split. Fast cav would be helpful to try to charge and tie them up as well as any flying units such as harpies or Peg Masters/Lords. (the latter likely tokill them while the other are likely just to tie them up)

[Gidean]

It seems to me that against so many flyers, the key will be having a fast army that can get into combat with the Dwarfs as ast as possible to keep those flyers from decimating your units. A heavy cav army or at least the Banner of Swiftness on a unit you want to get there lickety split. Fast cav would be helpful to try to charge and tie them up as well as any flying units such as harpies or Peg Masters/Lords. (the latter likely tokill them while the other are likely just to tie them up)

I just think Dwarves will be a bad match up (Rock-scissors) to us. Like Warriors of Chaos (chariot heavy). Their runes of slowness on their banners will mess with us big time. We ONLY have a 2 inch reach for the most part versus their troops. Executioners and witches being our best combat units. Not too keen on charging a CoK unit into fully ranked up steadfast Dwarves who have leadership 10. With Vanguard some of the copters will be in our back field by turn one if the Dwarf player goes first.

[Dalamar]

If Copters vanguard, I intend to charge them turn 1 consequences be damned. 12" away from our infantry makes for an average charge range and it will either make them flee (through their own ranks) or they will hold and lose. Every panic test you can cause is good, even with their Ld9-10 across the board and easy to get ItP.

[Gidean]

If Copters vanguard, I intend to charge them turn 1 consequences be damned. 12" away from our infantry makes for an average charge range and it will either make them flee (through their own ranks) or they will hold and lose. Every panic test you can cause is good, even with their Ld9-10 across the board and easy to get ItP.

Unless you opponent is wily and moves forward out of your charge arc...

[Setomidor]

Only 80pts for Gyros? My god, that's 5 points more than Harpies and the Gyros are superior in every possible way! With a breath weapon that can be used every turn?

I'm usually not one to quickly point fingers at GW for power creeping to make more money, but is there a single Dwarf player that wouldn't want at least four gyros? (Although, as the kit is kind of expensive, I would expect a lot of people to convert them from other things).

I would also expect that most composition systems will strike down hard at Gyro/Bomber spam. I would expect the ETC to make gyros something like 0-3 and bombers 0-1.

[Thraundil]

Seeing other armies' access to supercheap, very effective fliers, makes me want to take my harpy models and just throw them away.

This new dwarf book will mean trouble for us dark elves. Their shooting, which was already strong against us, has been made better. Their close combat, which was where we could maybe deal with them, has been made better. And now they have been given what they so sorely lacked; mobility and map control, as well. Looks like they have potential to be a very scary, and highly competitive army now. Cannons and multiple shooting units will make short work of armor. Gyros and bombers will rip hordes to shreds. Dispelling like a lvl 4 with no risk of losing concentration, I can see at least my own playstyle have a really, really hard time here.

[Setomidor]

I agree, I think the Dwarves are going to prove tough hairy nuts to crack. Imagine what 3 Cannons and 4 Gyros can do to a CoB/WE horde in a single turn of shooting? First target the CoB and then land 4 Flamer templates on them (every turn!). Oh mama.

[Daeron]

If they can do that, unchecked, then indeed you have a problem. The base cost of their models has gone up. They have gotten more goodies for it, but in general I expect the Dwarfs to field fewer models than before. The power of their shooting is nothing to sneeze at, but the sheer volume is slightly down.

The gyros are crazy for the points they cost... but we have means to fight them.

[General Kael]

I haven't gotten a chance to look at the new book but it seems like they got better in a lot of good ways. And gaining access to some cool new units. My only hope is that like our book you cant fit all the toys into one list. With these new rules maybe we will see some more varied dwarf lists, and that I think we can all agree just makes for better gaming.

[Setomidor]

If they can do that, unchecked, then indeed you have a problem. The base cost of their models has gone up. They have gotten more goodies for it, but in general I expect the Dwarfs to field fewer models than before. The power of their shooting is nothing to sneeze at, but the sheer volume is slightly down.

The gyros are crazy for the points they cost... but we have means to fight them.

I'm not sure about that, I think it seems a lot of their stuff remains about the same points-wise (apart from Hammerers and Ironbreakers). In my example though, 3 cannons and 4 Gyros are somewhere around 700pts, which is also the typical points cost of a WE horde + Cauldron.

[Daeron]

Yes, I'm aware but I don't agree with the comparison. Comparing a list of warmachines to a large, expensive infantry unit is probably going to end up badly for the infantry regardless of the warmachine (even if it is a soup kettle). Besides, how you can build an army around it is important too. Take those 700 points of Special. Add in 600 points of core troops and another 600 points of characters which isn't all that much. What you have left is 500 points for special combat troops. That's not bad, but not much either. So there's cuts to be made.

The Gyros can not march and fire the steamgun. So this eliminates the option of using the gun in turn 1:
- minimum distance 24"
- vanguard move brings them at 14" distance
- If they get to start: turn 1 4" distance at the least. They might be better off flying without firing the gun and get a better position. We get a turn to shoot, position and protect.
- If -we- get to start: our turn 1 4" distance at the least and a whole turn of shooting and magic before they get to roll.

So before turn 2, there's already been a whole lot of movement and dancing about. There has already been at least one chance for us to put a dent in it.
Deployment will be important to avoid the copters to come flying in unchecked. If the Dwarf doesn't place the copters soon, then he is probably forced to deploy the main army soon instead, giving us a good choice in the matchup. If the Dwarf does place the copters soon, then we can better choose how to deploy against them.

Countering them won't be self evident or easy but... it won't be for them either.

[Setomidor]

I would play them as Harpies on Steroids. Deploy Gyros as the first 5-ish picks all over the line, with the Vanguarding ones on the flanks. Use the vanguard move to either push forward or to shuffle back to tidy the deployment up. Deploy war machines very late after firing lanes have been established, use the central Gyros as redirectors (just fly 10" ahead, land to redirect, use template), and use the flanking Gyros to land nice template or even hunt war machines (charge +2A S4 with T5 and decent armour save will prove very hard for most WM crews).

It's not that I think they are invincible, they just seem to fill so many gaps in the army design at the same time and for a very meagre cost.

Based on what I've heard about the army book so far I'd probably go for very light characters (LD 10 general and a BSB, spell breaker, +2 dispel rune in some combination). Crossbows with rune of slowness as core, 5-ish Gyros and war machines as special/rare. Should leave plenty of points for at least one decently sized fighting unit too.

[Ming]

I'm not a dwarves' fan.
I like their fluff, but I hate their gamestyle.
While they needed a revamp and an improvement, I'm not sure it's a good idea to make flying circus nearly mandatory.
I'd be very pissed off if I would be forced to field a DE monster mash list in order to be competitive.
As an option it's ok.
Cosidering cost/effectiveness, Gyros seems far better than anything else they have.
And they can spam them!
They are tough but manageable.
I just want to point out that hard gunline will be replaced with hard flying gunline.
Are there any other options for competitive dwarfs lists?

[Calisson]

Hold on! Easy!
Gyro have obvious uses for us who practice elvish tactics.
But you're talking about people who had a dwarven mentality for ages.
I don't expect Dwarfs players to develop an effective air force overnight.

[Aurelius]

Hold on! Easy!
Gyro have obvious uses for us who practice elvish tactics.
But you're talking about people who had a dwarven mentality for ages.
I don't expect Dwarfs players to develop an effective air force overnight.

How much mobility aside from their Gyros does the army have? I can imagine Dwarves could modify the static gunline or refused flank by having their warmachines roam the table and give them breathing room, though do they have anything to keep up? Would it be viable to send DR or DP Masters at them while isolated?

[Amboadine]

They have mobility with their rangers, who are able to scout.

Remember only half their Gyros are allowed to vanguard, and then it is a 20 point upgrade to do so. The Bombers can't vanguard at all.

So we may be able to get a few more shots in before they are able to close fully.

[Daeron]

They have the potential to make some infantry units vanguard as well. So an aggressive force is possible, and I might welcome the sight of it
But yes, only half the gyros can vanguard.