New Tyranids

[Elric of grans]

Zoanthropes are also popular, but they are inferior vs light armour and readily shut-down by Imperials/Eldar. I doubt we will see them take over from Hive Guard, but can definitely see them being used in tandem.

I doubt Gargoyles will be a tournament-goer. They are heavily reliant on Synapse to get into a position to do some damage, which is a big problem for a Fast Attack unit. Only a Flyrant can keep them in Synapse, but there are far better uses of your Flyrant. The only alternative is to Deep Strike them, but Deep Striking a large footprint like 15-30 flight bases is never going to go well, and they will just get pummeled if they come in too far from the rest of your army. I could be proven wrong, but I just cannot see such a hit-and-miss unit being a tournament staple.

[Hali]

Fair point, but you can still do something like Gargoyles, with a Harpy supported by Shrikes in order to keep them under control. Or even just two units of Gargoyles run up with a unit of Shrikes for Synapse, or three units with a Trygon Prime to get them back within Synapse range at the other end of the board.

But it's a very fair point, tournament armies will focus more on the "reliable" units rather than something that needs so much commitment.

[Elric of grans]

The Trygon Prime is an unreliable strategy. You cannot guarantee which turn the Gargoyles or the Trygon Prime would come in, so they could easily miss each other, and the big guy also has a large target on his forehead, so do not expect him to stick around long enough. Gargoyles are a perfect example of where the Lictor's new homing beacon rule would make him an automatic inclusion in my list... if only he could be guaranteed to be on the table before the Gargoyles are!! It is amazing how many of the WTF moments in the book would be awesome if you did not roll for reserves. I have to wonder if they play-tested this Codex in Apocalypse rules rather than 40K.

Gargoyles will be competitive enough in regular lists: they are absurdly good for their points. Because Synapse keeps them on a short leash, I have to wonder how they would go as a unit you keep off to the wing to handle fast threats that try to flank you, or to hop forward one turn ahead to support Deep Strikers/Outflankers that came in before your main force advanced far enough. If they are away from the front line, your opponent would ignore them, but they have the potential to cripple just about anything you would face with this tactic. If your opponent goes out of their way to take out these on-the-table-reserves, even better!

Shrikes are a frustrating unit. When I first saw them, I was very excited... until I saw the Sv5+. What the? Hey, lets have an extremely expensive, extremely vulnerable unit and make it as squishy as the cannon fodder! I doubt they will see many competitive lists at all, tournament or otherwise. A right shame, as I always liked the idea of winged Warriors.

The Harpy, on the other hand, I just cannot see people making use of. The one-shot Spore Mines are interesting (basically a bad version of the Swooping Hawk Exarch Power --- and EVERYONE uses that...), but once you get past that you have a very large T5/Sv4+ model up on a flight stand asking to be slaughtered by the first Autocannon squad that looks at it. Putting that aside, it is just not killy enough for my liking, despite its points. The Hive Tyrant is a cost-effective platform for a Stranglethron Cannon, while the Heavy Venom Cannon is utter trash. The model is also useless in Close Combat, despite being one of the few units with Assault Grenades(!). I am very under-whelmed by this lame entry.

[Hali]

Well, i keep looking at the Hive Tyrant, and i like it's weapons less and less.

The problem came when i started looking into the Flying Hive Tyrant. Now, Boneswords arn't much use to him, as being an MC he's ignoring armour anyway (instant death is nice, but giving him Implant attacks works a bit nicer), the lashwhip is a nice makeup though, going first in a combat is just beautiful.
The problems come with his second weapon symbiot. I was thinking of giving him two sets od Scything Talons to make him a "for sure" killer with the re-rolls, but if you can kit him out with the "Old Adversary" this negates the use of that (except against vehicles), not to mention, makes any forward assault troops (looking at you Raveners with Rending Talons) that much more effective.

But i don't want to give him anything shooty, as it's expensive points wise, and if i put wings on him, it's to get him into combat faster, not to fly around gun platforming for me.

I thought that for a Flyrant, these builds aren't too bad.

Hive Tyrant: 2x Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Wings, Hive Commander - 265pts

or

Hive Tyrant: Scything Talons, Bone Sword + Lash Whip, Adrenal Glands, Wings, Old Adversary, Hive Commander - 290pts


I'd even be willing to throw Regeneration or an Implant attack (make up for the lack of Bone Sword) on the first build. Now the second build's Scything talons are practically useless, the reason i like the first one more is because there's less equipment wasted, so to speak, or moreso, it's ALL put to use.
Adrenal Glands and wings means he's charging in on Initiative 6, so he's going to be striking first pretty much ALL the time. And the dual Scything Talons gives him nice re-rolls (not to mention...Flyrant with dual talons looks WICKED).
The second build is a bit more of a supportive Tyrant, and i like him for that reason, but with a Tyrant like that, i'd prefer to put him on foot and spend those points on a Tyrant Guard instead, then walk him up with the main force in order to do what he does best "support".

[Elric of grans]

I am also having the same issue for the Hive Tyrant. He is a lot of points for a unit that just makes everything else slightly better, but I also cannot find an equipment load-out that allows him to make a meaningful contribution. I have been leaning towards Lash Whip/Bonesword and Scything Talons, purely because it is cheap and gives you some small effects. My current view is that the Hive Tyrant should be used exclusively in support and not in combat (like a Venomthrope), but that does make him seem like a massive waste of points. Honestly, I am trying to justify dropping him, but the buffs are too much of a no-brainer to get rid of.

[Hali]

Well he's still a close combat machine, so i want to kit him out accordingly. He does work fantastic in support, also. But i guess...for a similar points value, you could just fill things in with a Tyranid Prime and then grab another Trygon.

In fact...that's not a bad substitute if you're going to make the Hive Tyrant more of a killer class, rather than a unit support.

[Malevion]

One cool combo on the hive tyrant is lashwhips combined with acid blood. Lashwhips reduce initiative of models in base to 1. And if they do a wound they have to take an initiative test or suffer a wound themselves with no saves.

The tyrant i will use will probably still be my trusty 2x twin-linked devourer guy on foot with the 2+ save and a Tyrant guard. Alot more points than he used to be for sure but he still provides good shooting, stable synapse and will require alot of firepower to take down.

I think shooting tyrants will prove to be the better choice these days as he can no longer come close to being the sort of combat monster he used to be. No more 7 attacks on the charge combined with implant attacks The shooting tyrant will have the same amount of attacks and the same S all he looses are a few rules that make him better in CC, plus he has some pretty wicked guns.

[Elric of grans]

One cool combo on the hive tyrant is lashwhips combined with acid blood. Lashwhips reduce initiative of models in base to 1. And if they do a wound they have to take an initiative test or suffer a wound themselves with no saves.

That does not work. A lot of similar issues have been raised in the past (eg Power Fists and Hit and Run) and the answer is always the same. The Lash Whip causes the model to strike at Initiative 1. Initiative Tests are performed using the model's base initiative, from the profile. Similarly, things that increase Initiative (eg Acts of Faith) do not help against this power.

I am still on the fence over Shooty Tyrants. I think the Hive Mind Powers are the deciding factor here. Once you get to 12'', you are almost always better off using Paroxyism than you are doing anything else. For me, this is what gives the cheaper CC load-out the edge. I am still not writing off shooty builds, but you are paying a lot of points for a powerful Psychic Power, so it is inefficient to not use it.

[Hali]

Some guys where saying different way to use Mawloc's, and some of it sounded REALLY clever.

The first point was, on turn 5 of a game, burrow him, and then e can pop out and contest objectives on Turn 6 of the game, as he has a range that is....the entire play area.
The other trick was, rather than deep strike him, deploy him and on the first turn borrow him down. This means he's emerging on Turn 2 and it's guaranteed emergence, and no longer suffers from "dodgy reserves rolls", which is REALLY nice idea as it completely eliminates the "random" element involved in his deployment.

Still...my logic would be to spend the 30pts more to get:
- Double the attacks
- Fleet movement
- Assault 6 weapon
- Re-rolled misses
- A reserves deployment spot that isn't a board edge.

That said...the Mawloc is without a doubt, the most rapid re-deploying unit, and i can see the pair of them being deployed at the start of a game then burrowing being one HELL of a wicked refused flank tactic.

[Zardock]

That does not work. A lot of similar issues have been raised in the past (eg Power Fists and Hit and Run) and the answer is always the same. The Lash Whip causes the model to strike at Initiative 1. Initiative Tests are performed using the model's base initiative, from the profile. Similarly, things that increase Initiative (eg Acts of Faith) do not help against this power.

Wrong sorry, wording of lashwhips is 'counts initiative as 1 for the combat' not strikes at initiative 1. So for the purposes of Initiative tests, they are taken at I1 not standard Initiative.[/quote]

[Hali]

It's something that needs to be FAQ'd, along with the Tyrant Guard's shieldwall rule etc. In both cases.

Either way the lash whips effects are only until the end of the assault, and i don't think it's that great a combo as you're Tyrant has to take wounds to make it work int he first place.

[Elric of grans]

That is very, very RAW. It does not say your profile becomes I1, just that you are treated as I1 for the assault. The rules are not played like that in any other situation (eg Power Fists with Hit and Run, Bikes with Instant Death, etc), so when it is FAQed in three months time I believe it will be exactly the way I described it. Lash Whips will also have no impact on Sweeping Advance nor Hit and Run. In addition, Lash Whips only effect those in base to base, whereas all these rules impact the whole unit; attempting to use this definition results in a complex situation that causes a Zoanthrope's brain to explode. ``Oh, I put the Acid Blood onto the models that are NOT in base to base, so I use my regular Initiative. LOL''

[Blaznak]

Lash Whips with Acid Blood. Too Funny to think about as a combo. I dunno if I could run it as it seems a bit on the weedy side, but hey! GW has made some rulings in the past that tell me you just can't predict their thinking! Look at revealing Assassins in the DE FAQ. Its not exactly what I would think they would say is OK, but they did. Go figure.
~B~