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New skill ideas (previously Executioner) 
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Dark Rider
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Thanks to a recommendation from one of our kind Mods (I'm actually not sure which one since the name was not provided), I'm starting another thread for another possible skill for Alpha 3.5 or 4.

Basically, my idea is to create a hero in our warband who acts like an Executioner. I.e. Uses 2H weapons without losing all our Initiative bonuses. However, I don't want to create a clone to the Swordmasters of Hoeth, so I don't want to just take the Strongman skill as is (which basically allows 2H weapon users to always fight in init. order--written for those who haven't downloaded the LRB yet***mods, it's ok to list this info. since it's publically available right?). My idea is the following:

Executioner Training: "The hero can strike first with 2H weapons on a charge. In following close combat rounds, he strkes last, but now adds +1 to injury rolls."

Basically, the +1 injury roll part is supposed to replicate our KB ability. The 2H weapon striking first on the charge allows elves to use 2H weapons without totally eliminating our advantage of high init. and movement. After all, we're not exactly a race that can afford to take hits before striking. As we are now, using 2H weapons for an elf is basically suicide, since we ALWAYS, even on a charge, strike last... When fighting possessed or VC's though, I'd like to have a high str. fighter without NEEDING to resort to a Hired Sword like an ogre.

Mode edit:
UPDATE!

We've apparently decided that MoP sucks badly enough that it should go (Fury of Khaine stays as our not-so-good skill). Since we're now (yet again!) one special skill short, the hunt for an extra one is on again. This thread should be used to regroup and discuss any new skill ideas that people might have. (Ansob.)

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Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:35 am
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That mod would be me - sorry, I'm used to people being able to recognise the way I write.

A rule on giving rules: as long as you're not copying them out of the book, you're fine. You're not aloud to give it to people who obviously don't have the book in which the rule is contained, but since the LRB is publicly downloadable and this is the Mordheim forum, I don't think anyone qualifies for not getting the rules.

Okay, that's already a simple version of what you'd proposed in the other thread. Now, I need a justification for striking in initiative order only in the first round, please. The +1 to injury I can understand perfectly well (and should actually always apply), but I don't see why it would be only with great weapons either.

So, yeah; fluff justification, then we can discuss this. :P

That said, I see a very easy skill possible under the same name - as opposed to it being what you describe, we could simply have a skill called "Executioner" which grants a permanent bonus on the injury chart (so, yeah, Executioner + darksteel weaponry = fun).

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Sun Oct 09, 2005 11:33 am
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A neutral shade of black. wrote:
Okay, that's already a simple version of what you'd proposed in the other thread. Now, I need a justification for striking in initiative order only in the first round, please.

Striking in initiative order with two-handed weapon all the time is (identically) equal to Strongman. So if we want to avoid Strength skills, we should avoid this.

Quote:
The +1 to injury I can understand perfectly well (and should actually always apply), but I don't see why it would be only with great weapons either.

I think that it was to make GW a viable option.

Quote:
That said, I see a very easy skill possible under the same name - as opposed to it being what you describe, we could simply have a skill called "Executioner" which grants a permanent bonus on the injury chart (so, yeah, Executioner + darksteel weaponry = fun).

While it is nice and easy, I think that it misses an important feature of high-strength attack: reasonal (i.e. > 0,5) probability of wounding a high-toughness opponent. And armour piercing (which is IMHO less important) ability. Consequently, I think that this injury chart bonus should be supplemented by +1 to wound. And then maybe weakened a bit... For example by allowing its use only once for turn of CC. Unfortunately I am unable to come with some wording just now ;-)


Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:02 pm
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In that case, I would see no problem whatsoever with having it simply be +1 to wound as opposed to +1 on the injury roll. It's also going to prevent people from crying "cheese!" when their precious mutant gets mown down because the DE player got lucky on his to wound and had darksteel and +1 to injury.

It's a bit powerful, but I still like it. This is going to need some serious discussion... And we're already straying from the original post. :P

And I know about Strongman and the making great weapons viable - it just doesn't make any sense fluffically.

Edit: another thing: every other warband has five racial skills. It's in our best interest that we don't go over those five... So unless this turns out to be absolutely brilliant, it probably won't go in (and if it does turn out to be brilliant, we'll still need to decide which skill to remove).

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Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:08 pm
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Actually, fluff wise, I think we have a precident in 5th ed. All the pictures of executioners showed them holding HUGE 2H axes. I cannot think an ordinarily [physically] built elf could lift such a huge weapon. Even the description for our magical item, "Executioner's Axe", describes it as a MASSIVE weapon, which logially only a strong warrior can wield. As for Execs (or trainee Execs) in Mordheim, I believe Execs are closely associated with the ToKhaine, so they would be there to support the gathering of wyrdstone for the temples or as bodyguards to the "priestesses of Khaine". Also mechanics-wise, execs WERE str 4 units before, so I think GW agrees that they are much better physically endowed than a normal elf, justifying a skill for a more "physical/strong" combatant in the cases of executioners...

The reason I had the 2H weapon strike first only in the first round was similar to the idea behind flails. They're so heavy, you can only use them to "full effect/not stike last" on the first round. Afterwards you get tired. Only the swordsmen of Hoeth have the ability among elves to totaly negate the heaviness issue of 2H weapons. However, the skill of the wielder [the Exec], allows them to have the bonus to wound/injure later. In otherwords, the focus on the first round is hitting as fast as possible. Later, it becomes an issue of hitting in a destructive manner. I liken this to kendo sword fighting which i do: when at a far distance away, you just try to go in for a quick, clean hit, but when you're sword-to-sword, you can afford to go for more "powerful" (if it were a real blade) and slower attacks (like Gyaku-do for fellow kendo practitioners...). Also, I limited this to 2H weapons because it all revolves around Executioner training. Executioners only use 2H weapons, so I limited it to 2H weapons for fluff purposes. it also serves as a balancing factor--it might be too beneficial if we give a +1 to wound to our regular weapons.

I like the +1 wound idea, but it strikes me as more powerful than +1 injury. Still, you are both right about the combo. with darksteel may be too powerful with all the bonuses to injury...

As for removing a skill to keep us in the count of 5, maybe get rid of "Fury of Khaine"? It seems like we already have too many skills that would fall in the area of "Combat Skills". Both SUN and Fury of Khaine fall in this category in my view, and I prefer SUN... I think the point of the skill I suggested up top though [Exec. Training], was to legitimize CC oriented DE warbands. Right now, I just can't see us using the 2H weapons needed to take the fight to high toughness opponents. I fear that we're going to evolve into a "Shooter" warband and frustrate our opponents (similar to the complaints people have vs. Wood Elves in WHF before the official army book came out). This is my "non-fluff", "DE are a fun opponent to play against! I don't know what to expect!" argument.

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Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:58 am
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Geophrim wrote:
I like the +1 wound idea, but it strikes me as more powerful than +1 injury.

It is. It gives a chance to wound a dwarf ;-)

Quote:
As for removing a skill to keep us in the count of 5, maybe get rid of "Fury of Khaine"? It seems like we already have too many skills that would fall in the area of "Combat Skills". Both SUN and Fury of Khaine fall in this category in my view, and I prefer SUN...

I am quite unimpressed with Fury of Khaine as well. Exec training would probably be more useful.


Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:01 am
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I woud absolutely leave the +1 to wound!!! a 2Hd Sword will have S5 or even S6 This is way enough!

My proposal is: +1 to injury roll and strike in INI on charge (strike at last after that)
In addition with a darksteel weapon really killing!

Giving up the Fury of K.? It might become very powerful in bigger messes of CC!

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Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:39 am
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+1 to injury can be gained from a number of sources. If you're lucky and find the magic weapon that changes the table, coat it with the right poison and have the right skill you'll take a model out of action on a roll of anything but a one.

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Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:41 pm
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Cat-the-Odd wrote:
I woud absolutely leave the +1 to wound!!!


The thing is this skill has no reason to apply to great weapons only. Executioners get KB regardless of weapon choice. That would mean that anyone with this skill and any weapon counts as having better than +1S (it's like +1 to hit is much better than any WS bonus because of the places in the chart where there's no difference between two different S/WS values for the same T/WS value).

One way to make this work would be that "this attack means no finesse," justifying a +1 to wound but countering with the inability to roll criticals. Might even add +1 to injury in there. The problem is, this isn't a DE skill, it should be a Strength skill which we don't have access to.

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Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:34 pm
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I have thought about the Executioner thing and came up that we should not get a speed bonus with the 2handed weapon. It seems to me that we are producing a more and more powerful list, just because we are upset with playing. Other warbands can get the strength skills - we cannot, so we should not apply some own stuff! We have some elves in Mortheim, but they are not the best fighters of Naggaroth!
We should take some disadvantages, or nobody wants to play against us!
I liked the Master of Poisons from A2/3 quite much, because it was an enrichment to the skill list.
(Yes, I have a bad day.)

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Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:03 am
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Bravo for hitting what I've been thinking on the head. :P
Yes, I entirely agree that we're moving towards more and more powerful skills whilst cutting out the bad ones.

Cat-the-Odd wrote:
I liked the Master of Poisons from A2/3 quite much, because it was an enrichment to the skill list.
(Yes, I have a bad day.)


That MoP was the original one and I liked it too. I wouldn't mind going back to it, but I'm not going to take a decision alone.

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Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:47 am
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I never really had a problem with the old MoP..instead of getting extra gold via the wyrdstone rolls, you get some poison without having to make rare rolls and buy it. (Right?)

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Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:53 pm
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Wyrdstone roll and item search roll are separate. You didn't even need to not search for money, it's just searching for items that your forgo.

(I may be totally wrong.)

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Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:40 pm
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The more I think about it, MoP really is a fluffy skill (Temple of Khaine my friends!). I really would have us NOT drop it if possible. Rather than drop it, I'd rather it go back to A2/A3, or even with the with the d3-1 rolls. Drop Fury of Khaine if we're goign to drop something. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, for the Love of the Bloody Handed god, DROP FURY of Khaine instead! We have plenty of "combat skill" skills. Poison and Druchii should be inseperable as they're so fluffy!!!!!!!

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Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:07 am
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Fluff thinkings on MoP:

The DV is made of the poison teeth of helldragons (something like that). We cannot write in the fluff that our DE make it themselves in their hiding ruin in mortheim.
Writing something like having business connections to other DE or finding the right substances very easiely in the 'common drugstore'. (Secret recepies, you know)

just to make the fluff better

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Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:28 pm
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For Alpha 4, can we still reconsider a new skill in place of "Fury of Khaine"? I just find that skill, I don't know, "boring".... I just don't see it getting much [or any] use by players, or even chosen very often by anyone... CtO's point is really important, that we're starting to escalate in power, but I think we can still cut out skills that no one likes, and replace them with ones that people like, that are balanced or even "weak".

OK, here's a new idea: a "NERFED" version of the initial skill I proposed:

Executioner: "The hero can 'strike first' with a 2H weapon on a charge. In subsequent CC rounds, he will 'strike last' with the 2H weapon as normal."

So, i've removed extra injury or wound rolls as benefits to the skill. It's NOT as good as the "Strongman Skill", but still makes 2H weapons viable for charging heroes. I think it is a benefit to our list, but much worse than such a similar skill for other warbands. Plus, I think it's fluffy, since it reflects the high level of martial skill of a Executioner in my mind, although not his/her KB ability (the basic reason why I first brought up this idea in the first place--I'd like to theme my warband around an Executioner who is out to hone his skills)...

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Mon Oct 17, 2005 12:21 am
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Necromancy, lesson 1: How to use a shovel....

When thinking about ways to deal with being outnumbered, I remembered that we only have 5 special skills and got following idea:

Quote:
Intimidation

The Druchii knows how to scare an enemy. On a charge, he emits terrible cry of war while showing enemies his almost supernatural speed. Consequently, he causes fear until next Druchii turn.


OK, it is somewhat inspired by ToK Cry of War. And the wording is rough. My point is to prevent countercharge, at least to some degree.

We are possibly also missing another thing, which is some sort of area affecting attack, probably spell, or special weapon.

Ideas? Comments?


Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:04 am
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Acrobatic charge perhaps? "The warrior can re-roll one failed initiative check in a charge action. In addition his charge may not be intercepted."

Might makke for a lot more charging while out of LoS.

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Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:10 am
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Hmm... new ideas while we are almost finished? ANSOB will kill us. What are we waiting for?

Loflar wrote:
On a charge,[...] he causes fear until next Druchii turn.

Well, isn't there a strength skill causing the warrior fear?
I like the basic idea. Lets look at the consequences... The charged victim hits only on 6's when it fails the Ld test, attackers have to LD-test for a charge and the dark elf can charge fear causing guys (or will he get the fear ability, when the charge is done?).

Arquinsiel wrote:
In addition his charge may not be intercepted

This is nice, too. But to make it more fair, I'd roll an Ini test to avoid the interception.


Maybe the combination of fear and this interception avoiding on the charge could read this way:
Quote:
Intimidation
On a charge the Druchii causes fear until next Druchii turn.
Note that he doesn't have to test for charging fear causing creatures and warriors wanting to intercept the charge have to test.

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Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:56 pm
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Well you could put a test on the interception as well bu thtis means it's going to be much harder to make the intended charge if you're charging around a corner or over a wall or gap or something. I think simply saying that he can dodge past is enough.

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Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:00 pm
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Cat-the-Odd wrote:
Loflar wrote:
On a charge,[...] he causes fear until next Druchii turn.

Well, isn't there a strength skill causing the warrior fear?

Yes. This would be a lighter version. And I got complementary idea:

Quote:
Intimidation

The Druchii knows how to scare an enemy. On a charge, he emits terrible cry of war while showing enemies his almost supernatural speed. Consequently, he causes fear until next Druchii turn. If the model already is fear causing (because of scars), any enemy, wishing to charge him, must reroll successful fear test.


Quote:
Arquinsiel wrote:
In addition his charge may not be intercepted

This is nice, too. But to make it more fair, I'd roll an Ini test to avoid the interception.

Looks like Blood Bowl ;-) I like the original idea, although it is a bit suicidal. Kamikaze attack, aimed at assassinating enemy leader, accepting possible death of attacker.


Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:36 pm
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well... 20 min writing and then... everything is gone, damn me!

I said:

Fear should not stack. so let's add some psychology...
Quote:
Intimidation
On a charge the Druchii causes fear until next Druchii turn. If the druchii takes one enemy out of action each enemy within 6" must pass a Ld test (except itp, as vampires) or suffers -1 to hit in the CC phase.


Another idea came to my mind: let's call our skills like Aspects of Khaine. This adds nothing fruitful to our project but is pretty damn cool 8) .

Like Master of poisons: Khaine the black serpent.
Counterattack: Khaine the devious predator.
Fey quickness: Khaine the lissome lizard. (hey this must be good, it rhymes a bit)

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Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:31 am
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Intimidation: Khaine the Scarecrow
Infiltration: Khaine the Insidous Rat ;-)

Sorry. You can see what sort of ideas I get... But seriously, I think that it is better to stay with descriptive names.

I think that your version of intimidation is better then mine. At least it is one roll per model.

Another skill idea:

Quote:
Combat movement
Skilled Druchii warrior can circle around his opponent, dragging him out of reach of his comrades.

If, in any close combat phase, Druchii model with this skill fights in close combat one-on-one, Druchii player may move the fighting pair 2" in any direction he chooses, following normal movement rules (i.e. no flying etc.).


Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:31 am
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Wow.
What if we come close to an edge on higher ground? Can we push him down? This might be useful and since one-on-one fights are not too often (i usually face orcs or undead - 1:2 model count).
I'd prefer this more than this fear causing idea.

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Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:04 pm
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That would be another skill. My intention was to have an ability to drag an opponent out of countercharge range or behind a corner. In case of falling down, I think that both should fall. OK, I understand that the wording needs some work...


Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:38 pm
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