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Black Guard
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So I found it ( my cousin plays lizardems ). These mere-lizards must be another race, because dark, wood and high elves are also all different races. These sea lizards probably look different ( tail for example ). Still mere-witches look too much different, but they could be created by very similar way like these ( city lost under cruel sea during Sundering or First invasion of Chaos ).


Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:26 am
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Asur, Druchii and Asrai are not seperate races - they are different groups seperated by culture.

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Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:35 am
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It is difficult to say, what in fantaswy means race, but Asur and Druchii are another race ( or another part of elven family tree if you wish ) as are Norscans another race than Tileans. :roll:


Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:49 am
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They're another people, certainately. I wouldn't say another race.

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Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:34 pm
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Sezax wrote:
It is difficult to say, what in fantaswy means race, but Asur and Druchii are another race ( or another part of elven family tree if you wish ) as are Norscans another race than Tileans. :roll:

If the Asur and Druchii are seperate races, then I can just as easily claim that the Kislevites, men of the Empire and Bretonnians are different races. They aren't seperate races unless they are actually biologically different. And they aren't.

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Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:00 pm
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Really? I'd say that they were seperate races in a similar way to Tileans and Imperials being seperate races (Old Worlders, Southerners and Northmen being the three main human races we've encountered in the game).

Outer Kingdom and Inner Kingdom elves are different races as they do look different, though interbreeding between the two would make the difference less obvious than it used to be. If you knew what to look for, there would be different traits that would tell you whether an elf was Asrai, Asur or Druchii. The differences are biological, but they arn't a lot more than cosmetic or a tendancy toward a certain set of genes.

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Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:40 pm
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I wouldn't call them races, though - they might have slightly different hair and the like, but that doesn't make them a different race. It'd be a different subrace at best, and even that is pushing it, IMO.

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Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:58 am
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Well Asians, Europeans, Arabs etc are all different races. Why would the same not be true in the warhammer world?

I would say that the elves are all races of the same species just as applies to humans. To put it very simply race variations are caused by different habitats( if i remember biology from school that is)

On a sidenote i wonder what the scientific name for an elven species would be

I assume they'd be very closely related to humans as they look very similar

Homo pulchropithecus perhaps :)

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Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:27 am
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Race when used in the context of human beings is a fabrication. There is no such thing. It was created to justify discrimination and persecution way back in The Day. Our genetic material is exactly the same, with only tiny chromosomal differences.

Were those three groups of people actually seperate races, you'd find that they either couldn't reproduce with one another, or their offspring would be sterile at the least, due to wild genetic differences in each child.

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Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:04 am
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Sirist is right, but elves and humans can have childrens together.


Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:35 am
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Sezax wrote:
Sirist is right, but elves and humans can have childrens together.

Uh-oh. Beware - this is very shaky ground you're walking on, owing to the fact that humans and elves are entirely different races (okay, so the parts might line up, but that doesn't mean procreation is possible in and of itself).

Oh, and again on the note of the three being different races, Sirist's statement applies - they aren't seperate.

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Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:04 am
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Were has any one ever said that the old ones in 40K were made of up differnt races? And it wouldnt be Homeo anything, thats the bit that refers to us being human, sapian means walking.

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Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:08 pm
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Drainial Shadowhart wrote:
Were has any one ever said that the old ones in 40K were made of up differnt races? And it wouldnt be Homeo anything, thats the bit that refers to us being human, sapian means walking.
Homo = human (homeo is greek for being the same), Sapiens = wise. There was a ton of upright hominids, infact all of them since we split with our common ancestor with chimps.

As for the various races making up the Old Ones in 40K, Gav Thorpe I think said it on Warseer.

Races I think would be called kline (been a while since I've done evolution and people usually use race anyway) today, there are differences between the various races as we know them but its more just local variation (skin colour, few metabolic enzymes etc).

Thinking about it though, there has probably been about 15-20 generations since the various elven nations seperated which would work out to be about 350-400 yearsish. So its not really enough for there to be any real noticable racial differences (other than possibly in a few of the more isolated Asrai comunities should an unusual mutation crop up). They are heading in the right direction for it though, but the end of the world will probably beat them to it.

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Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:01 pm
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Sezax wrote:
Sirist is right, but elves and humans can have childrens together.


No. Not in worlds that follow the common laws of physics.

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Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:35 pm
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Psh, clearly you all don't play DnD.

Also, practically all modern fantasy is based on Tolkien. Therefore, half-elves are most likely possible.

As far as race is concerned, IRL if a simple skin color (as an example of a common trait amongst a people) decides ones race, then I'd say the Warhammer elves are different enough to be a different race.

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Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:10 pm
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@ Sirist

You're wrong there. Race isn't a fallacy it is a theory which is widely accepted(by actual scientists as well) but has come under fire in recent years due to the marginal genetic differences you mentioned. Regional differences are found in all species not just humans if I remember rightly.

As to the elves and latin classification, surely they would be some offshoot of the homo genus as they are so similar, perhaps close enough to breed and create hybrids as is the case in many fantasy series. I believe in Arcanum(a slightly enjoyable RPG) the humans were the elder species and elves and dwarves were offshoots (Although the elves and dwarves didn't accept this theory) That amused me greatly. Of course all this is mere speculation as elves don't actually exist

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Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:52 pm
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I have to step in to gallantly defend Arcanum.
Arcanum owned.

Anyhow, warhammer is NOT D&D. It's a far more nuanced universe, for which I, for one, am profoundly grateful.

I'd hate to roleplay in a world of black and white.

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Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:36 pm
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Quote:
As for the various races making up the Old Ones in 40K, Gav Thorpe I think said it on Warseer.

He did - but it was on the old Portent site, IIRC, so there isn't a link available.

Quote:
Psh, clearly you all don't play DnD.

Also, practically all modern fantasy is based on Tolkien. Therefore, half-elves are most likely possible.

Worst argument I've seen today (that said, I've only been browsing the internet for about an hour so far).

EDIT: Found a worse one.

Quote:
As far as race is concerned, IRL if a simple skin color (as an example of a common trait amongst a people) decides ones race, then I'd say the Warhammer elves are different enough to be a different race.

They're not a different race. End. Period. Full stop. <insert ending to a sentence here>

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Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:54 am
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They are different races. Different races of the same species. This can be seen through racial variations such as the Druchii being predominantly dark haired. It is just the same as Bretonnians and Tileans being different races of men. End. Full Stop. <insert ending to a sentence here>

@Ashanari

I suppose Arcanum was an allright game. I have fond memories especially of the sheep. I found it very easy though. I just got some hardass suit of plate armour right near the start and the some pokey dirk and just stabbed my way through the game. I liked the background to the world though

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Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:21 am
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Quote:
They are different races. Different races of the same species. This can be seen through racial variations such as the Druchii being predominantly dark haired.

This is a ridiculous argument. The Nagarythi (Shadow Warriors) are predominantly dark haired, while Avelornians and Sapherians are predominantly blond/gold/silver haired, that sort of thing (Caledorians are redheads, oddly enough). Since they all come under the same grouping (that of "Asur"), your hypothesis is voided by that alone. Even then, the elves of Avelorn and the Asrai are extremely similar (hair colour and the like, since they come from the same "stock"), so unless you're going to claim that the Asrai don't exist, I think you need to re-evaluate your position. :roll:

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Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:43 am
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Quote:
The Nagarythi (Shadow Warriors) are predominantly dark haired, while Avelornians and Sapherians are predominantly blond/gold/silver haired, that sort of thing (Caledorians are redheads, oddly enough).


Where did you find it? I am not saying you are lying but but GW have all High elves blond in armybook ( champion dragon prince, archers, Caledor, Shadow warriors, handmaidens etc.)[/quote]


Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:23 pm
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Older ABs, WHFRP and a couple of BL novels point out the differences. Using the manner in which models are painted is not an advisable course of action, either. To be honest, it's a stupid one, because people paint things in the style that they think will look the best, not the style that they're supposed to be in.

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Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:36 pm
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Dogs provide the answer.
Yes, dogs.

Dogs is the species.
Then next you have family. We'll call them humans and elves.
Then you have race which is a further division.
So example, Bretonians, Tileans etc are the race, they are of the human family.
Druchii, Asur and Wood Elves are the races in the Elf family.

Like dogs, certain different families can interbreed. Now if the old ones designed all the races, they could have said, we'll make humans elves, but make them compatible in regards to breeding

Also in regards to mermaids, which this topic is about, I think the sundering is the best explanation. Evil elves dragged under the waters + huge amounts of chaos power and tada! You've got mermaids!
Or conversley a sea based community of elves that had their drinking water mixed with warpstone that "magically evolved" into mermaids.

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Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:55 am
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Check the date that the last reply was posted, or you'll get into trouble with the mods because of necromancy... Good explanation though

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Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:18 am
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Necromancy is fine in the history forum, you just have to have a good reason to do so and bring something to the discussion. I think Quatters did this, so carry on.

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