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Hell Drakes
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Author:  Drainial [ Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Hell Drakes

I Keep hearing about these, just to clear it up are these just small dragonish kinds of things found in old fluff or old versions of the game?

Author:  Fingol darkwater [ Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:58 am ]
Post subject: 

I had forgotten about those things, if I may direct you to the links we have stashed in the stickied threads, the one that leads you to info about the cities and this is what the one on Karond Kar had to say:

Quote:
The hordes of monsters that are used in combat are captured and trained for battle by beastmasters. The most commonly used monster is the terrifying War Hydra, which can literally annihilate entire regiments of enemy soldiers. Giant spiders and scorpions are also used frequently as they are more common and easier to raise. Smaller versions of the scorpions and spiders can be found amongst some armies as well. When not used by the fleets Helldrakes are available as well, ridden into battle by slim, lightly armoured Dark Elves.


Too lazy to look for more. You'll find the link in the stickies. IIRC, they're those flying things you see behind Malekith on our army book.

Author:  Quatters [ Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:00 am ]
Post subject:  A cool new unit... Quatters says yes!

Hmmmm....
How about we get a new unit,
Hell Drakes.
Flying unit similar to Warhawks, Terradons etc.
ABOVE QUOTE wrote:
When not used by the fleets Helldrakes are available as well, ridden into battle by slim, lightly armoured Dark Elves.

This seems they're not huge creatures, also for some reason I see them breathing fire.

Ridden by a DE with a RXB and I think we have a winner!

Author:  Tastyfish [ Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:15 pm ]
Post subject: 

They aren't well painted but here is some Heldrakes on ebay. (There is a Sea Dragon there as well) They are from an old warhammer naval game called Man'o'War.

Author:  Quatters [ Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:04 am ]
Post subject: 

Those are Doomreavers.
Hell Drakes are supposed to be flying creatures.

Author:  Slerac fellblade [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:10 pm ]
Post subject: 

I would say if we had helldrake riders they would be ridden by corsairs with spears maybe and do half a artillary dice in str 3 armour piercing fireball hits. Just to represent they are not fully grown dragons and more like warhawks. Give them like str 5 toughness 4, 2 wounds flying cavalry. Thats the only thing I could see them as if they made them a unit for the army. Which would be cool. Otherwise seems like they are more just a fluff beast there for flavor than anything else.

Author:  Tastyfish [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:22 pm ]
Post subject: 

Quatters wrote:
Those are Doomreavers.
Hell Drakes are supposed to be flying creatures.

The ships are Doomreavers, the creatures that they form part of the ship is a Heldrake. You're not telling me that my Sea Dragon is actually a death fortress?

Says on the back of the box if you've had a chance to see them, Heldrakes and Sea Dragons. Your quote even says 'When not used by the fleets'

Author:  Quatters [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:13 pm ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
When not used by the fleets Helldrakes are available as well, ridden into battle by slim, lightly armoured Dark Elves.


Yeah, but if you read the bold part.
It suggests they can't carry alot. "Slim, lightly armoured Dark Elves." Hence in the description above, the image is of a light weight creature, not an enormous fortress carrying dragon as even a normal sized Elf would be too heavy for one!

Author:  Eldacar [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:54 pm ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
It suggests they can't carry alot.

Er... no it doesn't. It merely says that they're ridden by slim, lightly armoured elves. That doesn't mean that they can't carry something heavier.

Author:  Tastyfish [ Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:25 am ]
Post subject: 

Slim, lightly armoured elves could easily mean beastmasters (who don't seem to wear a lot of armour even when they can) or trainers who have to be ready to swim at some point should they lose control.

But trust me, not only does the man'o'war background say that Heldrakes are small sea dragon type things but they have been mentioned as such in a few other GW games as well. Mordheim also mentions that 'Heldrake Poison' is extracted from giant sea serpents. See for yourself

Mordheim Rulebook page 36 wrote:
Dark Venom
This is a poison extracted from Heldrakes, gigantic
sea serpents that plague the Western Ocean and the
coast of Naggaroth. The slightest wound infected by
Dark Venom causes excruciating pain, incapacitating
the bravest of men

Author:  Quatters [ Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:48 am ]
Post subject: 

But why would it specify "slim and slightly armoured?" What reasons could there be for having slim and lightly armoured elves if it could carry such huge amounts?
Same as the beastmaster idea, it would have said ridden by beastmasters.

I think the main problem is that Hell Drake has been utilized to describe several different creatures, and hence there's this confusion. Hell Drake seems to have been used to describe a very large Sea Serpent and a small, dragon related, flying reptile.
Because it's a background bit of fluff there's porbably not that many controls to make sure it's consistent throughout every description.

Author:  Tastyfish [ Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:50 am ]
Post subject: 

Because you can't swim with armour on and if the thing wants to bite you, you want to get out the way rather than rely on an a few mm of steel. Its never been described as a fly wyvern-like dragon to my knowledge, they have always been the marine dragonesque things. There is a smaller fly creature, can't remember the name of them but I think they crop up in the Dark blade comics (I'll check tomorrow for you).

Author:  Quatters [ Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:46 am ]
Post subject: 

Yes, you can't swim with armour on, but then why the description of slim?

Author:  Eldacar [ Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:43 am ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
Yes, you can't swim with armour on, but then why the description of slim?

To me, "slim" and "lightly armoured" is indicative of increased agility over that of normal elves. Plus, elves were never known for their beer bellies (that dubious honour is left for the Dwarfs).

Author:  Quatters [ Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:46 pm ]
Post subject: 

But when used in regards to riding a beast, the first assumption would be of the lack of strength/size of the beast. If a Cold One Knight can run around fully kitted, than it would suggest that a Hell Drake rider would be able to as well if the Hell Drake was a large beast. If it is large enough to carry a fort on it's back, than whether an elf is slim or lightly armoured would not be an issue.
Also being slim and lightly armoured does not have as much positive effect on a mounted warrior as it would on a footbound warrior.

Anyway, as I said before:
Me above wrote:
I think the main problem is that Hell Drake has been utilized to describe several different creatures, and hence there's this confusion. Hell Drake seems to have been used to describe a very large Sea Serpent and a small, dragon related, flying reptile.
Because it's a background bit of fluff there's porbably not that many controls to make sure it's consistent throughout every description.

Author:  Eldacar [ Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:36 am ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
But when used in regards to riding a beast, the first assumption would be of the lack of strength/size of the beast.

Not when the beast in question is stated as being capable of pulling large weights. The swimming point also applies - have you ever tried swimming in full armour?

Author:  Tastyfish [ Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:01 am ]
Post subject: 

Other than that army book quote, which even then does hint to them being the same creatures as used by the fleet instead of proper battleships- there is nothing that suggests there is more than one type of Heldrake.

Author:  Quatters [ Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:10 am ]
Post subject: 

Tastyfish wrote:
Other than that army book quote, which even then does hint to them being the same creatures as used by the fleet instead of proper battleships- there is nothing that suggests there is more than one type of Heldrake.


I'm not saying there's two tupes of Hell Drakes. I'm saying that due to the fact that it's a minor part of the background. The name Hell Drake may have been applied to several different creatures as there's no real controls on minor background info.

Eldacar wrote:
Quote:
But when used in regards to riding a beast, the first assumption would be of the lack of strength/size of the beast.

Not when the beast in question is stated as being capable of pulling large weights. The swimming point also applies - have you ever tried swimming in full armour?



Why do Corsairs wear armour? They lead a sea based life, hence if they fell overboard, or their ship was scuttled they would need to be able to swim.
Also if they were to go swimming they would go with barely any clothes at all. Swimming fully clothed is quite hard.

Author:  Tastyfish [ Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:45 am ]
Post subject: 

Quatters wrote:
Tastyfish wrote:
Other than that army book quote, which even then does hint to them being the same creatures as used by the fleet instead of proper battleships- there is nothing that suggests there is more than one type of Heldrake.


I'm not saying there's two tupes of Hell Drakes. I'm saying that due to the fact that it's a minor part of the background. The name Hell Drake may have been applied to several different creatures as there's no real controls on minor background info.
I know that is what you are saying, I'm saying that there isn't anything to suggest it has been mixed up as everytime its used they refer to the Man'O'War creatures - its always big sea serpents used in the fleet. It may well have been applied to various creatures used by the fleet but there is no more evidence of this than there is that Skarsnik is an inherited title rather than just one Warlord.

Author:  Eldacar [ Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:57 am ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
Why do Corsairs wear armour? They lead a sea based life, hence if they fell overboard, or their ship was scuttled they would need to be able to swim.

Who says they wear it all the time? Last I checked, it wasn't fused to their skin.

Quote:
Also if they were to go swimming they would go with barely any clothes at all. Swimming fully clothed is quite hard.

Er... I used to do it. It's not as hard as you're making it out to be, but doing it in full armour as opposed to light armour is another thing altogether (Case in point: Caledor I).

Author:  Lordofthenight [ Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:17 am ]
Post subject: 

Caledor the Coward was committing sucide at the time though, and actually trying to kill himself.

Weakling. ;)

Author:  Tastyfish [ Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:47 am ]
Post subject: 

There is a difference in the need to swim of a corsair (who is primarily a land based fighter, he's a marine more than a sailor) and that of a Heldrakemaster. The former would probably get left behind even if he could swim as he is just one solider amongst many and is not usually going to be in a position where he can drown unless something goes very wrong. The Heldrake beastmasters are going to have the raise and train the creatures, within the flooded caverns beneath the Ark - think of it as a trainer at a very nasty seaworld.

Author:  Eldacar [ Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:13 am ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
Caledor the Coward was committing sucide at the time though, and actually trying to kill himself.

So your position is that full armour is no hindrance to swimming, then? Please get a few kg worth of weight and jump into a nice deep pool. In the interests of confirming your theory, of course. :P

Author:  Lordofthenight [ Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:44 am ]
Post subject: 

Eldacar wrote:
Quote:
Caledor the Coward was committing sucide at the time though, and actually trying to kill himself.

So your position is that full armour is no hindrance to swimming, then? Please get a few kg worth of weight and jump into a nice deep pool. In the interests of confirming your theory, of course. :P


I'll go do that. If I do happen (by some strange quirk of fate that is) to perish, then you'll be undeniably correct. Of course, by then I won't be able to congradulate you on your (correctness? corrrectiveness? I don't know), making it count for naught.

Author:  Sorceress [ Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:07 am ]
Post subject: 

Do we have an official source about Dark Elves riding flying Helldrakes? I only recall that particular website saying anything of that nature.

The Darkblade graphic novels have similar creatures but call them Doomwings.

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