The rise of Khaine

Raziel02 · Post by **Raziel02** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:03 pm

Considering that khaine is a God shoudn't he have things like deamons like the chaos Gods,because appart from the special rules from the temple of khaine , the Druchi dont have much beneift from whorshiping him,those that do worship him anyway.

would people agree that Kaine should have a greater power than he does at the moment, deamons for example.

Manaurith · Post by **Manaurith** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:09 pm

khaine is a god not an embodiment of caos. gods is somthing mortals create to set order to there life. the caos gods kom from anothere plana and are acuali a force.

Cervantes3773 · Post by **Cervantes3773** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:09 pm

Um... they have dark magic and the cauldrons of blood...

Daemons are avatars of a god, clearly Khaine does not want to be represented that way.

Do sigmar or the old ones have any daemons?

So, no. I don't think khaine needs anything extra.

One-eye · Post by **One-eye** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:42 pm

you also forget the manticore which is a form of Khaine that could also be considered one of his blessings. But yes there are the assassins and dark arts and cauldron of blood. - Lord K

Sigur · Post by **Sigur** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 6:43 pm

Normally you don't GET something material for worshipping your god. Khaine doesn't torment you and gives you inner strengh. There's no need for something as bland as "demons of Khaine".

Piper · Post by **Piper** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:37 pm

Khaine gives us magic. What else do we need?

Jaycee · Post by **Jaycee** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:08 pm

Khaine doesn't give us magic.

Zavval · Post by **Zavval** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:22 am

Yes, all magic comes from the eight winds of chaos and what kind of magic you're using depends on what winds are you using.

Malificant · Post by **Malificant** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:05 am

first off, druchii arent the only ones who worship kaine. the Helfs do as well. secondly, khaine is not just an invention of the elvish race, as anerion and malekith having the sword of khaine proves(this is also what cursed anerion). another factor is that children who "perish" in the cauldron of blood, often come back as servants of khaine ala assassins. khaine is just not as fickle as chaos in that he does not send divine soldiers to do his will on a mortal planet. he is happy just leaving relics and divine powers. he does not "need" to conquer the physical world as the chaos gods seem to want to do.

Jiri · Post by **Jiri** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:44 am

Khain is a Khorne.But,

,because the Druchii figth against the Chaos but they don't know that they worship the Khorne under the false name.Khorne a thousend years ago entred to the elvish pantheon as a Khain.Some elvish worship his as a god of war and other.But,it was only a minor god of elvish race.After the separation Malekith submnit to a worship of Khain-it giving him the power to command his elves and many other things.
Who knows,Malekith for example don't worship thid god.and or he worship his.Or hi is in the middle of worshiping and no worshiping.How I said,Who knows how it is.

Artein · Post by **Artein** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:18 pm

Jiri wrote:Khain is a Khorne.

Not again

Ansob. · Post by **Ansob.** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:36 pm

Dark magic has nothing to do with Khaine; the cauldrons are magical, not holy (and those who survive being drowned in the blood are considered marked by Khaine and trained as assassins if male or hags if female). In addition to that, there are very few gods that actually manifest themselves on the physical plain. It takes a lot of power to do that, power which Khaine does not have, because Khaine is a concept and worshipped by a select few individuals. The Chaos gods draw power from emotions, not worship; as such, just being hopeful feeds Tzeentch more power, whilst you have to actually worship Khaine for him to draw power.

Post edited, Alex please go a bit easy on the more new people --- Leth

Cenyu · Post by **Cenyu** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:42 pm

Scusi, Ansob, why exactly is a Cauldron not holy? It's described as an artifact and a gift of Khaine from ancient times (enough to qualify as "holy" for the Elves as far as I am concerned) Is there any further fluff declassifying the Cauldrons as some (magical) hoax? I hope not.

Slightly philosophical,

Cenyu

€: By the way, I understand only half of what Jiri is babbling.

€²: And it does not even make terribly much sense.

Eldacar · Post by **Eldacar** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:38 pm

Scusi, Ansob, why exactly is a Cauldron not holy?

A holy item in WHFB is something that has been blessed by a god, and that draws its power solely from that god and no other. Since the Cauldron draws power from the Winds of Magic, it isn't "holy". I think.

Khain is a Khorne.

No. He is not.

The Chaos gods draw power from emotions, not worship; as such, just being hopeful feeds Tzeentch more power, whilst you have to actually worship Khaine for him to draw power.

To be more precise, the emotional spectrum Khaine operates in is more focused than Tzeentch's, so the "emotion", or "worship" has to be specifically directed to the god/warp entity in question, or it won't reach them.

Ansob. · Post by **Ansob.** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:37 pm

Lethalis wrote:Post edited, Alex please go a bit easy on the more new people --- Leth

Nevar! You know me, I bite. I should have my title changed to "Rabid dog of Gavin Thorpe."

Eldacar wrote:A holy item in WHFB is something that has been blessed by a god, and that draws its power solely from that god and no other. Since the Cauldron draws power from the Winds of Magic, it isn't "holy". I think.

Correctomundo.

Cenyu wrote:€: By the way, I understand only half of what Jiri is babbling.

€²: And it does not even make terribly much sense.

I didn't read his post. I stopped after he managed to misspell "Khaine" and blabber something that makes people shootable in my books.

Asperon thorn · Post by **Asperon thorn** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:57 pm

A neutral shade of black. wrote:
Cenyu wrote:€: By the way, I understand only half of what Jiri is babbling.

€²: And it does not even make terribly much sense.

I didn't read his post. I stopped after he managed to misspell "Khaine" and blabber something that makes people shootable in my books.

And had the timeline wrong by at least 5000 years. . . . :roll:

Eldacar wrote:
Khain is a Khorne.

No. He is not.

And the irrefutable proof that he isn't, is that it is the one thing that Eldacar and I can agree on.

Asperon Thorn

One-eye · Post by **One-eye** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:42 am

I think Khaine provides the druchii with more than just magical artifacts and some drug-crazed hags. He gives the druchii a focus for all that bloodlust and something to spur them into action against their enemies.

- I also think that Cenyu meant holy as in it is related to Khaine or associated with Khaine rather than having holy powers. I mean the statue is a statue of Khaine is it not?

- Lord K

edit: Piper will you change your avatar i am getting frequently confused between you and eldacar

Eldacar · Post by **Eldacar** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:56 am

I didn't read his post. I stopped after he managed to misspell "Khaine" and blabber something that makes people shootable in my books.

All you had to do was answer the first sentence. Up with elitism.

And had the timeline wrong by at least 5000 years. . . .

Closer to about nine thousand, actually (The exact number is 8773 years). The worship of Khaine has always been a part of the elven mythology, and even in the time before the First Great War, Khaine had a place. Not necessarily a big one, but a place nonetheless.

- I also think that Cenyu meant holy as in it is related to Khaine or associated with Khaine rather than having holy powers. I mean the statue is a statue of Khaine is it not?

Following that logic, a lump of wood with Khaine's symbol on it would be holy.

Dearchon · Post by **Dearchon** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:17 am

lord khaladin wrote:edit: Piper will you change your avatar i am getting frequently confused between you and eldacar

its not hard to tell the difference between the 2, eldarcar makes good worthwhile posts that are usually quite long, piper does not . ..

Ansob. · Post by **Ansob.** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:58 am

Eldacar wrote:Following that logic, a lump of wood with Khaine's symbol on it would be holy.

To the right people, yes. You know that to make a religious symbol of any god that manifests itself, you just have to identify something (generally a "holy" element helps) to the god and have faith? A pebble from a beach with the symbol of the Stomr God carved into it is a potent weapon to a priest of said god.

DEArchon wrote:its not hard to tell the difference between the 2, eldarcar makes good worthwhile posts that are usually quite long, piper does not . ..

Topic of the thread: "The rise of Khaine," not "lets bash the n00bs!!!11!!" :roll:

Cervantes3773 · Post by **Cervantes3773** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:39 pm

Following Greek mythology, a god's power comes from his worshipers, the more you have, the more powerful you are. It is the belief that the god exists that makes him exist... if you get down to it, it's rather cyclical thinking...

Anyway, with that in mind, anything that a worshiper believes to be blessed by Khaine is blessed by him and thus holy, regardless of whether or not Khaine actually did anything...

It's all sort of similar to Orks in 40k and the whole "Red goes fasta" thing...

Eldacar · Post by **Eldacar** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:03 pm

To the right people, yes. You know that to make a religious symbol of any god that manifests itself, you just have to identify something (generally a "holy" element helps) to the god and have faith? A pebble from a beach with the symbol of the Stomr God carved into it is a potent weapon to a priest of said god.

Yes, but that priest is not drawing on the Storm God to power his spells. He is drawing on the Winds of Magic (although he might not think that he is). That pebble would be holy if it only drew power from the Storm God. It doesn't, and hence, it is not "holy" in the WHFB sense of the word.

Following Greek mythology, a god's power comes from his worshipers, the more you have, the more powerful you are. It is the belief that the god exists that makes him exist...

Not necessarily. From what I remember off the top of my head, the Gods were elemental forces. Amoral, immortal, and the reason that they were gods and had power was because they were born from and deposed Cronus, one of the Titans. And Cronus himself was born from the union between the Father Sky and the Mother Earth (I think he was, there might have been another generation in between). They didn't derive all their power from their worshippers.

The "cyclical thinking" you're alluding to sounds very similar to the idea that Feist used in his novels (he had Macros the Black explain it to Pug and the others in Rage of a Demon King, the third book in the Serpentwar series).

Ragnarok · Post by **Ragnarok** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:24 pm

Acutally before them came love and before that even came chaos. Their where some others involved like the darkest night something but im not an expert on greek mythology.

Eldacar · Post by **Eldacar** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:30 pm

Acutally before them came love and before that even came chaos.

I'm aware that Aphrodite wasn't born with the rest of them (she was born on the crest of a wave, IIRC). However, the Goddess of Love is still one of the Olympians, she isn't one of the ancestors of the Olympians.

The "darkest night" reference might be to a couple of the spirits that were birthed alongside the Titans. However, the Olympians themselves (with the exception of Aphrodite) are descended through Cronus, and ultimately the Father Sky and Mother Earth, who developed, I think, from the "primordial ooze", or "Chaos", if you want to call it that.

One-eye · Post by **One-eye** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:33 pm

ok how is this... a direct quote from the dark elf book

A Cauldron of Blood is an ancient artifact of the long gone days when the gods walked the earth. It is a gift from Khaine, the Lord of Murder, and within it lies the secret of eternal youth and beauty.

Ok this somehow proves it is holy. Not in the sense of "drawing power" holy but more "blessed" holy. a) its an artifact with magic powers (some would say divine) b) it is a gift from Khaine Himself c) somehow his power makes the blood grant beauty and magic. Surely these would prove it is indeed holy.

OT: Feist is an exellent author. However, Jennifer Fallon's description of the Primal Gods in the Demon Child Trilogy is also a good explanation.

- Lord K