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Fluff battle question? 
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Executioner

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:11 pm
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Ok who do you think would win in these situations and why? Just thought it'd be cool to get everyones opinions
All these are with all the forces in the fluff

-Dark elf entire army attacks high elf entire army on ulthuan
-dark elf invades lustria vs lizardmen all army
-Lizardmen invade naggorth full armies
-Dark elves get invaded by WoC
-dark elves gets overrun with demons from the warp
- and last but not least a big army of skaven under naggorth to attack them


I'll post my thought tomorrow. It's bed time now. Night guys


Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:25 am
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Quote:
-Dark elf entire army attacks high elf entire army on ulthuan


High Elf victory.

Reasons:
1. High Elves have the defensive advantage (the griffon gate etc).
2. It's been done multiple times throughout elven history, and yet we're clearly still stuck in the frigid scapes of Naggaroth.

Quote:
-dark elf invades lustria vs lizardmen all army


Difficult one, but lizardmen victory. Again, having the advantage of home terrain and the defensive. Their temples etc would give them huge boosts and we would be stumbling around jungles getting hot, sweaty and lost. Some of our troops would have experience with this kind of work (e.g. corsairs), but mostly we are too used to the cold and open spaces for us to do well.

Quote:
-Lizardmen invade naggorth full armies


Dark Elf victory: same basic rationale - they would dislike our cold frosted lands and we would have the defensive terrain and fortifications in our favour.

Quote:
-Dark elves get invaded by WoC


Dark Elf victory:

- Defensive terrain
- And it's been done before, and we won and are still here.

Quote:
-dark elves gets overrun with demons from the warp


Well, Daemons eventually. It depends on how you define overrun. If you mean our lands get swamped by limitless Daemons (which exist in the warp) then it doesn't matter how many we kill, we'll eventually succumb.

Quote:
- and last but not least a big army of skaven under naggorth to attack them


Dark Elf victory: Just a giant game of 'Whack a Mole' really.

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Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:45 am
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agree with red, nobody goes nowhere, that is how the warhammer world stays in balance, it is the status quo.

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Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:08 pm
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Executioner

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I suspect High elves, Lizardmen and Skaven massivly outnumber the number of Dark elves in the world, someone please correct me if they don't.

Wouldn't change the outcome in the listed scenarios but adds another reason.


Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:49 pm
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Carolus wrote:
I suspect High elves, Lizardmen and Skaven massivly outnumber the number of Dark elves in the world, someone please correct me if they don't.


High Elves have a few more, in that Nagarythe was only a small part of Ulthuan (in perspective), but in the way the DE like to, ahem, enjoy their nights I'd imagine there are more annual DE births than HE. Skaven massively outnumber everyone, including Greenskins. But DE would outnumber Lizardmen. The Lizards are a dying breed and there are less and less Spawnings with each generation.

In reference to your questions BS, anyone will win on their home turf. They have designed their holdings to be as defensible as possible. Good luck to any army trying to invade Naggarond or Ghrond. Obviously against infinite waves of Daemons they will eventually fall (much like the Great Cataclysm) but a normal army would have very little chance. It's like football, you should be less likely to be beat at home.

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Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:04 pm
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-Dark elf entire army attacks high elf entire army on ulthuan
dark elves would win if all of naggorth attacked. high elf eagles and dragons(which arent that many) would be shot out of the sky with bolt throwers and hydras would stop ground stuff and dragon princes would fight our black guard. we would overrun if full forced against them.

-dark elf invades lustria vs lizardmen all army
it'd end up like the picture on the first couple pages of the lizardmen book. wouldnt be pretty.

-Lizardmen invade naggorth full armies
if lizardmen are fighting because "old ones" or whoever told them to, they would slaughter everything in their path. we would take out a lot of them, but they have some nasty beasts and good troops who would do nothing but kill. we would probably retreat to above canada or underground to mend our wounds.

-Dark elves get invaded by WoC
warriors would cause major damage. probably push us back a bit but we would stop them at about north america/canada border. then take it back over years of bloodshed

-dark elves gets overrun with demons from the warp
dark elves would win and be able to fight them off. they arent scared to fight these monsters and would only lose if 100% of all daemons came or a couple greater daemons

- and last but not least a big army of skaven under naggorth to attack them
skaven would probably lose but on a widescale war, naggorth would be unrepairable. food and water would be messed up. poison everywhere. It would look like hiroshima.


Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:23 pm
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Why would you answer your own fluff question and not regard other people's answers? :/ Anywho...

Quote:
-Dark elf entire army attacks high elf entire army on ulthuan
dark elves would win if all of naggorth attacked. high elf eagles and dragons(which arent that many) would be shot out of the sky with bolt throwers and hydras would stop ground stuff and dragon princes would fight our black guard. we would overrun if full forced against them.


Do you know how many times Malekith has tried to invade Ulthuan? I'm pretty sure he's tried all you can come up with.

Quote:
-dark elves gets overrun with demons from the warp
dark elves would win and be able to fight them off. they arent scared to fight these monsters and would only lose if 100% of all daemons came or a couple greater daemons


100% of all Daemons? They're forever spawning. And a couple of Greater Daemons are common in any major incursion let alone an all out attack.

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Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:33 pm
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Guinea Pig Hydra wrote:
Why would you answer your own fluff question and not regard other people's answers? :/ Anywho....


Check what I wrote at the beginning. It was like 2am. I was gonna answer what I thought today.
kthxbye


Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:05 am
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Guinea Pig Hydra wrote:

100% of all Daemons? They're forever spawning. And a couple of Greater Daemons are common in any major incursion let alone an all out attack.


didn' teclis kill several'3 was it?) himself elvo au demo ??


Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:04 am
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flash29 wrote:
Guinea Pig Hydra wrote:

100% of all Daemons? They're forever spawning. And a couple of Greater Daemons are common in any major incursion let alone an all out attack.


didn' teclis kill several'3 was it?) himself elvo au demo ??



Yea. IIRC tyrion was defending the everqueen and slaughtered a crap ton of demons himself, and got into a fight with several greater demons, and one threw him to the side, and was about to kill him, but at the last moment, teclis came and essential snapped his finger and banished several greater demons.

Those 2 brothers are the most badass elves.

wish we had cool fluff. Our special elves blow.


Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:03 am
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Quote:
Yea. IIRC tyrion was defending the everqueen and slaughtered a crap ton of demons himself, and got into a fight with several greater demons, and one threw him to the side, and was about to kill him, but at the last moment, teclis came and essential snapped his finger and banished several greater demons.


YRI (You Recall Incorrectly). Tyrion was fighting 4 of Naggaroth's most vicious assassins. He kills all 4, but the final one manages to dispatch a messenger to report that he has found Tyrion successfully. At that point Malekith dispatches the Greater Daemon N'Kari, who sets off after Tyrion. It is N'Kari who Teclis saves Tyrion from.


Guinea Pig Hydra wrote:
Why would you answer your own fluff question and not regard other people's answers? :/ Anywho....


BlondShade wrote:
Check what I wrote at the beginning. It was like 2am. I was gonna answer what I thought today.


I think he was referring to the fact that you asked a question and a bunch of people wrote answers. It's traditionally curteous to at least acknowledge their answers before just firing off answers to your own questions, ignoring the people who pitched in to help you with the topic.

As to your answers to your own questions, some thoughts:


Dark elf entire army attacks high elf entire army on ulthuan
dark elves would win if all of naggorth attacked. high elf eagles and dragons(which arent that many) would be shot out of the sky with bolt throwers and hydras would stop ground stuff and dragon princes would fight our black guard. we would overrun if full forced against them.


This sounds a bit unlikely for several reasons:
1 - You're doing purely favourable matchups and ignoring those that you don't like. We can play the game the other way round: dark elf manticores and black dragons (which arent that many) would be shot out of the sky with repeater bolt throwers, Hydras would be turned into bacon by high elf fire mages and archers with flaming bows, our black guard would be shot to ribbons by long range high elf bowmen emplaced in fortified positions, etc etc.
2 - You're ignoring the fact that they have defensive territory. Whereas his bolt throwers could be dug in and carefully positioned into well fortified emplacements across mountain hills, with ranges and terrain clearly known in advance, we would have to lug our bolt throwers off our boats, wheel them up the beaches and then use them to fire up at fortified mountain citadels. Not much fun.
3 - Malekith is pretty much one of the only rulers to have actually attempt to attack another country with as much of his forces as he could muster (he physically moves his base to Nagarythe in one of the wars IIRC). He still lost.
4 - During the recent war Malekith was only as successful as he was because he rode the wave of the general chaos rising and allied himself with major daemons etc from Chaos. These were unusual circumstances and could not be reliably replicated. And he still lost.
5 - You could never move 100% of one side's armies against another, for two reasons. One, you would need to leave some guards at home or face anarchy in the rear. Two, ever tried to fit a hydra on a boat? No one's going to volunteer to ride with it on that voyage.

-dark elf invades lustria vs lizardmen all army
it'd end up like the picture on the first couple pages of the lizardmen book. wouldnt be pretty.


Based on...?

-Lizardmen invade naggorth full armies
if lizardmen are fighting because "old ones" or whoever told them to, they would slaughter everything in their path. we would take out a lot of them, but they have some nasty beasts and good troops who would do nothing but kill. we would probably retreat to above canada or underground to mend our wounds.


"They have some nasty beasts and good troops" is a phrase that could describe pretty much every army in warhammer. Don't see how this would be unique to lizardmen. Also, while the warhammer world does resemble earth, it's not the same place, so Canada doesn't exist there.

-Dark elves get invaded by WoC
warriors would cause major damage. probably push us back a bit but we would stop them at about north america/canada border. then take it back over years of bloodshed


Check your dark elf history book. It's been done. WoC invaded Naggaroth, but failed to storm our citadels. I don't see how your scenario would result in anything different.

-dark elves gets overrun with demons from the warp
dark elves would win and be able to fight them off. they arent scared to fight these monsters and would only lose if 100% of all daemons came or a couple greater daemons


Based on...?

- and last but not least a big army of skaven under naggorth to attack them skaven would probably lose but on a widescale war, naggorth would be unrepairable. food and water would be messed up. poison everywhere. It would look like hiroshima.

Based on...? Also, be a little careful with making comparissons like between fictional scenarios and actual human tragedies.

This whole thread feels a bit like a "who would win, superman or batman" style conversation. As its purely fictional scenarios, there's no right or wrong answers, but if you want to make your case for the above outcomes I think you need to flesh our your arguments a bit more tbh.


Quote:
Those 2 brothers are the most badass elves.

wish we had cool fluff. Our special elves blow.


Why do you think our special characters blow? Malekith is super strong and Morathi has a lot of good uses (in fact, they both seem overpowered, which is why I never use either). Hellebron is a lot of fun as the glass cannon supreme. Lokhir has awesome fluff and good potential versus horde armies. Malus is very very nasty indeed: re-rolling to hit and wound, with no armour saves allowed and the potential to go up to S5 and T5 (T5 on an elf!!!). Shadowblade is sweet for killing annoying special character wizards like Vilitch the curseling (and even Teclis?). What more could you want?

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Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:58 am
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Red... wrote:
Quote:
Yea. IIRC tyrion was defending the everqueen and slaughtered a crap ton of demons himself, and got into a fight with several greater demons, and one threw him to the side, and was about to kill him, but at the last moment, teclis came and essential snapped his finger and banished several greater demons.


YRI (You Recall Incorrectly). Tyrion was fighting 4 of Naggaroth's most vicious assassins. He kills all 4, but the final one manages to dispatch a messenger to report that he has found Tyrion successfully. At that point Malekith dispatches the Greater Daemon N'Kari, who sets off after Tyrion. It is N'Kari who Teclis saves Tyrion from.


Guinea Pig Hydra wrote:
Why would you answer your own fluff question and not regard other people's answers? :/ Anywho....


BlondShade wrote:
Check what I wrote at the beginning. It was like 2am. I was gonna answer what I thought today.


I think he was referring to the fact that you asked a question and a bunch of people wrote answers. It's traditionally curteous to at least acknowledge their answers before just firing off answers to your own questions, ignoring the people who pitched in to help you with the topic.


if you look back, i was asking everyones opinions. its cool to see what everyone believes


As to your answers to your own questions, some thoughts:


Dark elf entire army attacks high elf entire army on ulthuan
dark elves would win if all of naggorth attacked. high elf eagles and dragons(which arent that many) would be shot out of the sky with bolt throwers and hydras would stop ground stuff and dragon princes would fight our black guard. we would overrun if full forced against them.


This sounds a bit unlikely for several reasons:
1 - You're doing purely favourable matchups and ignoring those that you don't like. We can play the game the other way round: dark elf manticores and black dragons (which arent that many) would be shot out of the sky with repeater bolt throwers, Hydras would be turned into bacon by high elf fire mages and archers with flaming bows, our black guard would be shot to ribbons by long range high elf bowmen emplaced in fortified positions, etc etc.
2 - You're ignoring the fact that they have defensive territory. Whereas his bolt throwers could be dug in and carefully positioned into well fortified emplacements across mountain hills, with ranges and terrain clearly known in advance, we would have to lug our bolt throwers off our boats, wheel them up the beaches and then use them to fire up at fortified mountain citadels. Not much fun.
3 - Malekith is pretty much one of the only rulers to have actually attempt to attack another country with as much of his forces as he could muster (he physically moves his base to Nagarythe in one of the wars IIRC). He still lost.
4 - During the recent war Malekith was only as successful as he was because he rode the wave of the general chaos rising and allied himself with major daemons etc from Chaos. These were unusual circumstances and could not be reliably replicated. And he still lost.
5 - You could never move 100% of one side's armies against another, for two reasons. One, you would need to leave some guards at home or face anarchy in the rear. Two, ever tried to fit a hydra on a boat? No one's going to volunteer to ride with it on that voyage.

-dark elf invades lustria vs lizardmen all army
it'd end up like the picture on the first couple pages of the lizardmen book. wouldnt be pretty.


Based on...?

the picture on the first couple pages of the lizardmen book? and reading the fluff in both books and rulebook

-Lizardmen invade naggorth full armies
if lizardmen are fighting because "old ones" or whoever told them to, they would slaughter everything in their path. we would take out a lot of them, but they have some nasty beasts and good troops who would do nothing but kill. we would probably retreat to above canada or underground to mend our wounds.


"They have some nasty beasts and good troops" is a phrase that could describe pretty much every army in warhammer. Don't see how this would be unique to lizardmen. Also, while the warhammer world does resemble earth, it's not the same place, so Canada doesn't exist there.

Not so much. this is 2 things i thought lizards were notorious for. quetols, thunderlizards, stegadons, creatures in the jungles, carnosaurs, snakes, lizards, razordons sallies......yeah...............
troops spawned for fighting and nothing else?


-Dark elves get invaded by WoC
warriors would cause major damage. probably push us back a bit but we would stop them at about north america/canada border. then take it back over years of bloodshed


Check your dark elf history book. It's been done. WoC invaded Naggaroth, but failed to storm our citadels. I don't see how your scenario would result in anything different.

true true. they do kinda suck when you read it

-dark elves gets overrun with demons from the warp
dark elves would win and be able to fight them off. they arent scared to fight these monsters and would only lose if 100% of all daemons came or a couple greater daemons


Based on...?

my opinion? which is what i said at the begining of everything? if lord kroke or w/e his name is can destroy an entire demon army and several greater demons by himself with one spell, why couldnt we fight them off

- and last but not least a big army of skaven under naggorth to attack them skaven would probably lose but on a widescale war, naggorth would be unrepairable. food and water would be messed up. poison everywhere. It would look like hiroshima.

Based on...? Also, be a little careful with making comparissons like between fictional scenarios and actual human tragedies.

I didnt know what to compare it to. i was gonna say cherynobl but i just wanted to give you guys some visualization of what it would look like. im not offending anyone by making a comparison. i said nothing wrong.

This whole thread feels a bit like a "who would win, superman or batman" style conversation. As its purely fictional scenarios, there's no right or wrong answers, but if you want to make your case for the above outcomes I think you need to flesh our your arguments a bit more tbh.

Ok buddy. what do you think would happen friend. give us your opinion since mine are not good enough to be expressed without you trying to make me look like an idiot

Quote:
Those 2 brothers are the most badass elves.

wish we had cool fluff. Our special elves blow.


Why do you think our special characters blow? Malekith is super strong and Morathi has a lot of good uses (in fact, they both seem overpowered, which is why I never use either). Hellebron is a lot of fun as the glass cannon supreme. Lokhir has awesome fluff and good potential versus horde armies. Malus is very very nasty indeed: re-rolling to hit and wound, with no armour saves allowed and the potential to go up to S5 and T5 (T5 on an elf!!!). Shadowblade is sweet for killing annoying special character wizards like Vilitch the curseling (and even Teclis?). What more could you want?


"wish we had cool fluff." thats why. teclis' fluff and tyrion beat out any in our book. its more fun to read theres

gamewise, i would take teclis over any of ours. wish we had like a dark teclis. like we kidnapped him or cloned him somehow. thatd be tight


Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:41 pm
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Quote:
what do you think would happen friend. give us your opinion


I already did - look up, that was the first reply to your thread.

I'm not intending to make you look like an idiot, nor have I indicated that you do. The challenge is that you are putting forth opinions, but not elaborating on them enough for readers to be able to understand your logic. I'm not saying that you are wrong, but simply pointing out that you've not provided enough rationale for me (and other posters) to be able to understand where you are coming from.

For example:

Wish we had cool fluff." thats why. teclis' fluff and tyrion beat out any in our book. its more fun to read theres

gamewise, i would take teclis over any of ours.


You've not told us why the fluff of teclis and tyrion is better than those for the special characters in our book. Without that supporting information, the reader is left with your word for why that would be the case. To make your argument stronger you could say something like "their fluff is more compelling because they kill more enemies", or "because more detail is provided about their childhood", or "because they are twins with radically different strengths", or another reason like that.

Similarly, you've not told us why you think teclis is better than any equivalent dark elf caster, so again we are left taking your word for it. You could strengthen your position by giving more detail. For example, you could say "teclis is more powerful because of his ability to cast irresitable force on any roll of a double, which has a huge impact on games" or something like that.

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Last edited by Red... on Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:03 pm
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Tyron and Teclis are just about the most one dimensional characters in the game, they are the good guys supreme. Teclis is a little more fleshed out but the simply absurd level of power GW gives him fluff wise kind of ruins him for me, no one wizard ought to be that powerful after the Vortex.

My personal opinions on these particular match ups

-Dark elf entire army attacks high elf entire army on ulthuan: This one we can say with certainty as it has been done several times; the dark elves win back Nagrythe and most of the outer kingdoms for a while and generally reign supreme then lose the final battle for some reason (Teclis besting Malekith at Finuval plains for example).

-dark elf invades lustria vs. lizard men all army: The two might be closely matched on even ground, both are magically potent (Slaan obviously better individually so it would come down to numbers in the mage war) and both have large veteran armies. The jungles are no place for an elven army though; disease would be a major problem as would supply lines leaving alone the tactical advantages given to the Lizard men. Lizard man victory.

-Lizardmen invade Naggaroth full armies: Much the same story in reverse, the cold blooded lizards would not cope well in the land of chill. It would be a major bust up but with the Slaan forced to direct their energy simply into keeping their troops from freezing over the Druchii have a huge advantage. Druchii victory.

-Dark elves get invaded by WoC: There are precedents, that's what the watch towers are there for after all. The defensive positions enjoyed by the dark elf armies would tip the balance in favour of the home team though the hordes may well take position of the plains for a time. Druchii victory.

-Dark elves get overrun with demons from the warp: Well it could only happen if the Vortex stopped swirling and the word overrun speaks for its self. Yes the dark elves would banish a lot of daemons but you can't stop them all. Ulthuan of old couldn't do it, even with Aeanrion and Caledor they only held them off until the Vortex was made. Deamonic victory.

- And last but not least a big army of skaven under Naggaroth to attack them: Hard to say, the Skaven are just too unpredictable. I think it is safe to say that the dark elves would out general them and man for man slaughter them. It all depends on how many rat men attack, if it is the whole race then the Druchii have no chance, if it is a couple of Clans then they should be fine, anywhere in between is anybody’s guess.

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Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:14 pm
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Blondshade, please do not make inflammatory comments such as:

Quote:
Ok buddy. what do you think would happen friend. give us your opinion since mine are not good enough to be expressed without you trying to make me look like an idiot


It is unnecessary, Red.. was not trying to 'make you like like an idiot' or saying that your opinions are not good enough, he was simply trying to help you make better quality arguments and posts by giving you some advice in a very polite manner, Red.. is quite right in saying that opinions not backed up with evidence do not make for good discussions, he was simply trying to help. There is no need to make a reply stating that Red... was trying to show you up, he wasn't, he is only trying to help, which is what this forum is here for, so that in turn your discussions are even more enjoyable all round for people to take part in which makes for a better overall quality in the forums.

Please refrain from making such comments in the future, thanks, Malus

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Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:03 pm
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Quote:
true true. they do kinda suck when you read it


Far from it. The example in history is an invasion of Marauders. Should Archaon decide to invade Naggaroth with everything at his disposal (he'd have no reason to but meh when you're the biggest bad guy in the world you can do pretty much what you want) the Watch Towers would fall and Ghrond and subsequently Naggarond would be very sorely pushed to their limits. That being said, both Towers were designed for such occassions. Again it comes down to home field.

Quote:
my opinion? which is what i said at the begining of everything? if lord kroke or w/e his name is can destroy an entire demon army and several greater demons by himself with one spell, why couldnt we fight them off


Because Lord Kroak is the first ever Slann spawned and as such the most powerful creature this side of the Warp? And destroying a few Daemons with one spell (a statement I'm not sure ever occured) is hardly fighting off the entire contents of the Warp. Remember the Old World would have fallen to the Daemons had it not been for Caledor, regardless of LM efforts.

Quote:
"wish we had cool fluff." thats why. teclis' fluff and tyrion beat out any in our book. its more fun to read theres

gamewise, i would take teclis over any of ours. wish we had like a dark teclis. like we kidnapped him or cloned him somehow. thatd be tight


Teclis and particularly Tyrion have pathetic fluff. Yes they've performed well in wars but as far as substantial back story? Nada. And they've only performed well in wars due to GW making them look the Hulk Hogan of Warhammer world. Malekith and Morathi have so much better fluff (even if it is a bit of a rip off of Macbeth). What do you mean by fluff incidentally? Do you mean how well they've performed in history, or actual character substance, characterization and plot?

Game wise I'd argue that Kairos pwns Teclis.

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Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:57 pm
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Guinea Pig Hydra wrote:
Quote:
true true. they do kinda suck when you read it


Far from it. The example in history is an invasion of Marauders. Should Archaon decide to invade Naggaroth with everything at his disposal (he'd have no reason to but meh when you're the biggest bad guy in the world you can do pretty much what you want) the Watch Towers would fall and Ghrond and subsequently Naggarond would be very sorely pushed to their limits. That being said, both Towers were designed for such occassions. Again it comes down to home field.

Ah true. I would agree with that.

Quote:
my opinion? which is what i said at the begining of everything? if lord kroke or w/e his name is can destroy an entire demon army and several greater demons by himself with one spell, why couldnt we fight them off


Because Lord Kroak is the first ever Slann spawned and as such the most powerful creature this side of the Warp? And destroying a few Daemons with one spell (a statement I'm not sure ever occured) is hardly fighting off the entire contents of the Warp. Remember the Old World would have fallen to the Daemons had it not been for Caledor, regardless of LM efforts.

It did occur. And it's one of the coolest stories in all of warhammer
The only demons that could make it to kroak were 12 greater demons of khorne protected from magic by khorne himself, the other demons were all struck down. When they reached the top of the pyramid, they ripped him apart. His spirit continued to fight on even though his body was ripped apart, and he casted a final spell, "the deliverance if itza", which was his most powerful spell. "in a blinding explosion of the purest energy that banished the demonic horde swarming over the city in an instant"

Banished an entire army of demons single handidly. THAT is tight.


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"wish we had cool fluff." thats why. teclis' fluff and tyrion beat out any in our book. its more fun to read theres

gamewise, i would take teclis over any of ours. wish we had like a dark teclis. like we kidnapped him or cloned him somehow. thatd be tight


Teclis and particularly Tyrion have pathetic fluff. Yes they've performed well in wars but as far as substantial back story? Nada. And they've only performed well in wars due to GW making them look the Hulk Hogan of Warhammer world. Malekith and Morathi have so much better fluff (even if it is a bit of a rip off of Macbeth). What do you mean by fluff incidentally? Do you mean how well they've performed in history, or actual character substance, characterization and plot?

Game wise I'd argue that Kairos pwns Teclis.


Teclis and tyrion have amazing fluff. I have read dark elf AB and the high elf one, and it is way more fun to read the high elf portion on tyrion and teclis that it is to read about malekith and morathi. Tyrion is an amazing warrior as well as a great general. I love reading the fights he is included in. You cant stop him. Also teclis makes me want to be able to shoot fireballs out of my hands. He is sick. We need a mage to come at least close with competing with him
Someone from another forum said it well about teclis. "He is more powerful, lorewise and storywise. He's got more experience ( feel free to correct me on that one if I misread that part ). He has achieved much greater feats of strength. Spends his time becoming stronger, rather than scheming from behind a son's throne."


And about kairos fluffwise, he can read the future. That must say something since he hasnt attacked teclis yet. He is cautious now attacking slann now that they found out he is attacking.

Gamewise he is nice since you can fit him in 2500 and he is hard as anything to kill. given the right spells, he can be nasty. 3up ward, 5W T5, 6 to cast, 13ish spells..... super nasty. I think i would still take teclis though. Irrisitable and ignoring first miscats is nice. and he costs less.

Then again I wish we had both.... sigh.....


Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:39 am
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Blondshade wrote:
Teclis and tyrion have amazing fluff. I have read dark elf AB and the high elf one, and it is way more fun to read the high elf portion on tyrion and teclis that it is to read about malekith and morathi. Tyrion is an amazing warrior as well as a great general. I love reading the fights he is included in. You cant stop him. Also teclis makes me want to be able to shoot fireballs out of my hands. He is sick. We need a mage to come at least close with competing with him
Someone from another forum said it well about teclis. "He is more powerful, lorewise and storywise. He's got more experience ( feel free to correct me on that one if I misread that part ). He has achieved much greater feats of strength. Spends his time becoming stronger, rather than scheming from behind a son's throne."


I think this answers my question from before. I think you class good fluff as to how many wars the character's won/how many battles/how well they've performed in general. I class good fluff as how in depth the characters are, their respective plot lines, and the actual character of each, well, character. Their personality. It doesn't matter to me that Malekith has ballsed up all of his invasions of Ulthuan; the character is really in-depth and interesting. I love the dynamic between him and his mother and his history in the flames and wandering through the Warp.

For example, many people love Grimgor, and state that he beat Archaon in combat. No, not really. Archaon had just gone one-on-one with Valten and beat him, as well as another Empire big-wig Luthor Huss. While Archaon has just gone through this titanic battle and is at the end of his vigour, Grimgor comes in with a headbutt and claims he beat him. Silly Orcses.


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Then again I wish we had both.... sigh.....


I don't. I'm quite happy that a Druchii general doesn't have an overpowered hero to rely on like a crutch.

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Last edited by Guinea pig hydra on Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Dec 15, 2010 1:31 pm
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Kraok was killed when a greater daemon possessed the body of one of the several Slaan who were sitting atop the temple with him, which incidentally also killed him. As for the whole Teclis issue it is a matter of opinion and so there is no right or wrong answer, if Blondeshade prefers the high elf that is up to him, though I would say from a background point of view that Malekith is his equal and Moraithy is at least as good as her son (possibly better) as is Furion. Perhaps it is not quite reflected gamewise but there does have to be some balance.

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Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:21 pm
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Quote:
You cant stop him.


That is the first red light of bad fluff. Everyone has a weakness, even Superman can be defeated by Kryptonite... Tyrion and Teclis are invincible, they would defeat whole armies by themselves if such thing ever happened. Their fluff is deeply flawed and highly unbelievable.

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Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:08 pm
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didn't tyrion kill possibly the greatest fighter DE have ever know by plot device? I recall a topic on here requesting the fluff of this character. i mean if you have to win a fight by plot device then your realy not welsupported by fluff. and it was i believe in the battle at finudal pass, were teclis plotdeviced malekith into pain.

On a side note any who have read giantslayer, the 7th gotrek and felix book might recall a disturbingly large presence of teclis which shows that he realy does have sinister thoughts and feelings like all high elves. and he even admits he might join druichii ways if tempted enough. If gw would ever think of doing this though it would be reason of to say i'm selling my dark elfs. Teclis is way to powerfull for his own good, he's a sickly whiny brat that acts all high and mighty because he use to be sickly and picked on. In dark elf community that little brat wouldn't have made it out of the cauldron for sure.

sorry if this may seem hatefull to high elves, but i'm allowed, its in the rules. XD

we on the other hand have plenty if cool characters, and powerfull fluffwize beyond belieff morathi and malekith are the oldest still living elves as far as i know, the witch king is treated as close to a god. he has become a creature of malice and hatred, a being with millenia of wisdom. He has made terrible pacts with demons, dragons and the like. he has rule over the most treacheros and greedy and hatefull creatures in the world(thats us btw) and he keeps that grip, helpt by his manipulative and overly powerfull mother. originally a slaaneshi cultist she corrupt malekiths hart to betray his people, and uses faith to control here population. She gifted the cauldrons of blood to the church, quite possible that she made them. She uses her magic in much more covert and sinister ways than you could imagine. its just in play those spells aren't that usefull.

We have a character who has a 2 omnibusses of fluff to his name, and is loved by most dark elves. we have lokhir fellheart whoch wears old treasures and raides the sea seeking adventure and finding.
we have shadowblade.....Wel i'm gonna play it safe and not talk any further about him.

We have hellebron the epathi of the word hag a old jelous woman, who regains beauty by spilling gallons of blood and can slice anything in half.

i know most high elf special characters and some of them are fun, mainly alith anar. But saying we don't have great fluff is like saying i play dark elfs for the army statts which to me is wrong. we have a great army, with great fluff and a overall good model range


ow and on a little side note o also play orcs and goblins and when oen talks about cool characters most of them come to mind. including grimgor, but not for his defeating archoan more of his aggresive junky attitude and no nonsense aproach, orcs don't have politics, they have choppa's and grimgor proves this point to the extreme.
but best char all round is the orc shaman from 6th edition, i hope he is coming back


Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:13 pm
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Drainial wrote:
Kraok was killed when a greater daemon possessed the body of one of the several Slaan who were sitting atop the temple with him, which incidentally also killed him. As for the whole Teclis issue it is a matter of opinion and so there is no right or wrong answer, if Blondeshade prefers the high elf that is up to him, though I would say from a background point of view that Malekith is his equal and Moraithy is at least as good as her son (possibly better) as is Furion. Perhaps it is not quite reflected gamewise but there does have to be some balance.


Nah i wrote exactly what it says out of the lizardmen book in my last post. You are thinking of another mage priest. that wasnt kroak. That was another dude, i know what you are talking about though.



So you think malekith or morthi= or > teclis? What leads you to that opinion can I ask?


Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:18 pm
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Unless the fluff has changed (entirely possible due to GW’s unique view of the time space continuum) I mean Kroak, I will admit to not having read the most recent LM book.

As for the Malekith- Teclis issue at Finuval plains the two of them faced off in a one on one duel and Teclis won by drawing on the power of his staff, fair enough as Malekith is hardly without his own magic trinkets (the Circlet of Iron for one, far more powerful in the fluff than the rules). None the less they are almost exactly equal in power and skill. Moraithy taught her son most of the magic he knows and has been practicing it for even longer, chances are she is even more powerful, the same goes for Furion.

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Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:07 pm
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Guinea Pig Hydra wrote:
For example, many people love Grimgor, and state that he beat Archaon in combat. No, not really. Archaon had just gone one-on-one with Valten and beat him, as well as another Empire big-wig Luthor Huss. While Archaon has just gone through this titanic battle and is at the end of his vigour, Grimgor comes in with a headbutt and claims he beat him. Silly Orcses.


As one of the aforementioned silly O&G players (orcses? Gollum!!!), Grim still whupped that trumped up chaos Lord's ass ;)

May I just ask, where is the Fluff for Furion? I have only ever heard of him from the ToF magic item, but his (her?) name has been referenced several times here

flash29 wrote:
We have a character who has a 2 omnibusses of fluff to his name, and is loved by most dark elves.


What's my name?!? :D and also, who are these dark elves who do not love the almighty lord Malus Dakblade? I will need their names, a chair, a chamber pot, some rope, 2cc of cat's blood, a small pair of tweezers and a nauglir which answers to the phrase 'Dinner time Fido!' ;)

Back on topic, It is very HE to have characters so sickeningly nice that even their own players occasionally retch when read some choice excerts from the fluff, personally I much preferred Alith Anar, He is a flawed, but quite awesome guy, and also as close to one of us as HE can get, even though they do hate us, they do subsist on hate, and I can respect that, we consider the shades 'of our people' and they have never been untowardly friendly towards any of the city dwellers, and they are also very like the shadow warriors, so generally, I consider Alith and his band to be Naggarothi, and thus, on the very borders of the Druchii, even if only to make them hate me all the more for likening them to us.

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Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:36 pm
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Furion's fluff is mostly pretty (read very) old. Before my time to tell the truth, 4th ed army book I think. There is also plenty of stuff in the old (as in one before the current) army book since he is narrating the background section. Almost everything I know about him comes from people on this forum.

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Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:49 am
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