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MSU / MSE - some observations and game experiences 
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Cold One Knight

Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2003 7:55 pm
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How far did you have the Spear bait out in front of your main supports. Surely the Silver Helms would have redirected into the supports and given them a hard time?


Sun Nov 02, 2003 7:59 pm
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Noble

Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2002 12:19 am
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I moved them just 10 inches close to them, with my support units 7-8 inches back. The flankers were Chariots and Dark Riders

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Mon Nov 03, 2003 12:21 am
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Dark Rider
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Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 12:21 pm
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MSU is cool but i'll follow MSE...i like dark riders!

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16 Corsairs: 160pts
16 Dark Elf Warriors: 112pts
1 Noble: 70pts
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Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:18 am
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Highborn
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I go for MSE also, and MSE is not dark riders only. Its mostly Witch Elves, Executioners, COKs, Black Guards... - all elite units in DE army.

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Tue Nov 18, 2003 12:50 pm
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Dark Rider
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That was boring but very very useful. It's long but i like your ideas....sound very good but.......usefully boring.....somehow! :arrow: !lol! Very very useful i say!

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16 Corsairs: 160pts
16 Dark Elf Warriors: 112pts
1 Noble: 70pts
Annihilating a high elf army: Priceless

There are some things points can't do, for everything else there's Druchii...


Wed Nov 19, 2003 8:06 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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I think a combination is probably far better ( both large and small units). The problem is every time I consider bringing a couple of tens of executioners or witches to support my corsairs and spears, I think I would rather bring chariots or flyers. They all need to break the enemy on the charge so I would probably bring 4 chariots rather that any other elite unit, especially infantry.

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Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:35 pm
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Executioner

Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2002 9:49 pm
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I am still (maybe one of the few) unconvinced player about msu.

My two main opponents are empire and beastmen.

Putting a 10 man unit against the empire is pointless. He has so much more units than you that you'll still be at 2 vs 3 at best. His shooting will shred your units apart and i know what i am talking about...it's not panic tests that you'll loose, it's your beloved extra attacks you hope will make a difference. The hellblaster will cost you 1 unit at least (and i've yet to see an empire player w/o one). Then you have to face his pistoliers and 1+ cavalry. Tell me how to defeat pistoliers with a ten man unit? flee and get wiped out, stand and get torn apart. My point is that there are far too many units to fight for small units.

Against beastmen, it's not as worse, but it can be. Think of how many units he brings in a 2k game. He has better maneuverability with his hordes than us, and gors can easily take elves 1 vs 1. His herds have no sides also unless you attack with two units at a time...but doing so is suicide, because he'll have 2 more units standing to countercharge yours. Then he get ambushes to screw your outmaneuvering plans...and minotaurs, trolls, unbreakable spawns. Even chaos hounds can screw your day (6 for less than 40 points)


Fri Dec 26, 2003 6:53 pm
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Executioner
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Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2003 10:07 am
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Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
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malekithau wrote:
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I'd like to add an important point to the discussion which is blatantly stolen from Machiaras site: the huge advantage over having multiple small units considering VP's.


Blatantly stolen? Hmm. I take offence at this especially as I have never been to Machiaras site and probably never will as I truly believe WEs are the easist army to win with.

WE tactics are not MSU there are differences whichI can't be bothered pointing out to someone who accuses me of plagiarism.


If of course meant that I myself stole it for the purpose of posting it here...

*Some really touchy elves here for sure. Lol*

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Sat Dec 27, 2003 11:44 am
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Slave on the Altar

Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:49 pm
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Harpies? A LD6 unit that flees 3D6? who wants those? Lone pegasus characters - even a sorcoress is better in combat! :shock:


Thu Jan 08, 2004 8:52 pm
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Warrior

Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2004 8:33 pm
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From what I have observed in actual games and on this forum, one of the main problem with MSU is that the MSU of the dark elves are either

A) Frenzied - The opponent decided when and where they charge.

B) Stupid.

C) They strike last and have no protection from missile fire.

So, wouldn't corsairs be very good for using in units of 12? They are not frenzied, thus making them highly reliable. They have the second best armour save against shooting in the whole army, only surpassed by cold one knights, They have two attacks on the charge which means that they are very efficient chargers (however not as good as witch elves) and are relativly cheap compared to executioners and witch elves.

In my opinion, the superior numbers, saves in shooting and the superior effectiveness in both combat and mobilitiy make them the MSU of choice, Fair enough they do not have the same amount of attacks as witch elves or the strengh and killing blow of executioners, but they have a balence inbetween.

Did I mention they look great? Unique, totaly. Compare them to boring empire, orc, skaven, high elf, wood elf spearmen spear spearmen they make an interesting change to the usual core unit. Oh yea, did I mention they can take a cool banner?

Thoughts and critisisms are more than welcome, however observations on my poor spelling will be rejected with extreme prejudice!!!!!

Jet


Mon Jan 19, 2004 3:13 pm
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Highborn
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could someone perhaps post a sample 2000 pt MSU list? Its much easier to follow the concepts behind the tactic with something to visualise.

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Mon Feb 23, 2004 11:28 am
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1337 Humour Terrorist
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Here is a battle report from games night at my local games workshop store... U can read the first one (of two) in the battle reports forum, in the post called "2 Battle Reports from games night at my local GW store. LONG"

Ok heregoes!!

Battle TWO, Enemy Chaos Undivided, table: 4x4, 1000points

Terrain and unit setup:

The terrain was almost the same as in battle one, 1 hill, one house and one forest. He started setting up terrain and stole the hill i wanted and placed it in a corner, it would have no significance to the game. I placed the forest in the middle of my battle line. And he placed the house in just about the middle line of the table on the my left side.

Deployment:

He had 10 Chosen chaos knights, undivided, his exalted champion in the unit. He also had 12 khorne warriors with halberds. And a bloodbeast of khorne.

I had the same list as in battle one, I had two units of 10 repeatercrossbowmen, set up in two ranks of five.
a unit of 10 Executioners with full command.
a Chariot with spears.
two reaper bolt throwers.
Two sorceresses, one with Tome of furion and a dispel scroll, and the other with Darkstar cloak and seal of ghrond.

I started setting up and placed my RBT's on each side of the forest, the one on the left with a gap between the forest so i could place my crossbowmen there. He placed his bloodbeast behind the house so i couldnt shoot it. I placed a unit of 10 crossbowmen in the gap between the left rbt and the forest. He placed his Knights to the right of the bloodbeast, quite out in the open, but so he could come forward quite fast. I then placed my other crossbowmen to the right of my right side bolt thrower.
He placed his khorne warriors about with a 10 inch gap from the knights.
I then finished with placing my executioners to the right of the right side crossbowmen. and my chariot to the left of my left side RBT. And my characters were placed on the forest edge, one on each side. My spells were: General sorceress: Doombolt, Word of Pain, and Dominion. Other Sorceress: Doombolt and Dominion.

Turn 1. Chaos.

He started moving and moved his knights fast forward towards my left side battle line. He would be able to charge next turn. His bloodbeast moved towards my right side battle line. His Warriors moved 4" Forwards towards my executioners.

Turn 1. Dark Elves.

I moved my chariot in position for a possible flank charge if the knights got to charge. My executioners moved full march forwards towards the warriors. I didnt move any more. In my magic phase both my sorceresses cast doombolt succesfully on the knights, i killed a total of 4 knights with my magic. In the shooting phase my RBT to the right shot a single bolt through the flank of the knights, killing 4 more. My left side crossbowmen killed another knight, and my left side RBT shot multiple shots and kiled the last chosen chaos knight. The big scary unit had turned his exalted champion into an idle champion, he managed his panic test. My other unit of crossbowmen shot at his warriors, killing one.

Turn 2. Chaos.

He foolishly decided not to charge my units with his exalted champion and insted moved him for cover behind the khorne warriors. His khorne warriors tried a charge on my executioners but failed, now i again could see the exalted champion. His Bloodbeast moved towards my executioners, a slimy and bloody trail marking its path.

Turn 2. Dark Elves.

I charged the warriors with my executioners, and my chariot failed its stupidity test and moved a measly 3 1/2" forwards. My Left side crossbowmen moved 5" towards the warriors and bloodbeast, my two sorceresses moved out into the open. My Sorceress tried a doombolt on the bloodbeast but it was dispelled. My other sorceress succesfully cast word of pain on the warriors. In the shooting phase my left side RBT shot multiple shots at the bloodbeast. I hit with 4, and despite him being T-5 I wounded him 3 times and killed it. My other RBT shot a single bolt at his Exalted champion and hit him, i rolled a 4 on D3 wounds and he was dead. In the CC phase my Executioners fought as if they were zombies, they hit with 1 attack and killed one warrior only!! The frenzied warriors struck back and killed two executioners, i lost the combat by one but i stood.

Turn 3. Chaos.

In the CC phase vs my executioners he struck first on 5+ and killed one executioner. The executioners struck back, killing 3 of the foul warriors. Beheading one of them with a kiling blow. He dispelled word of pain.

Turn 3. Dark Elves.

My Chariot tried to charge the warriors in the flank but was an inch out of range, so a failed charge. In the magic phase i again cast word of pain on his warriors. In the CC phase he struck at me and killed one more executioner. I struck back at him killing 3. He lost the combat and i ran him down. Result: a MASSACRE to me, he only managed to kill three of my executioners, i am very happy with this game.

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Fri Feb 27, 2004 3:18 pm
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Slave on the Altar

Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 10:12 pm
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After having commanded the dreaded Druchii for many years I haven't realised until now what I have done wrong. I usually get a sound beating when playing and at a tournament not long ago two of our dark brothers thrashed my glorious army. :evil:

My army is very much based around medium sized (16-20) units of core and special troops along a large unit of knights (12), supported by 2 RBT, shades, harpies and 2x5 DR.

All I seem to have achieved with this army is getting beaten but after reading this article I just may have found a solution to my problems. I really look forward to trying out the MSU/MSE tactics.

I shall return with news of how my army works when employing these ideas. :twisted:


Sun Mar 14, 2004 3:28 pm
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 12:51 pm
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Hello, people!
Dark Alliance, your job is fantastic, is really a very good article!!
Well, I have to say some things that, IMHO, are very nasty for a MSU/MSE list: a "difuso" list.
I try to explain what is this kind of list: in Spain, some time ago, a player found a way of killing the classical tactic with a lot of eficience.
This kind of list is very effective because it's not based in the classical type of "support-principal unit", and if haven't got any "point of brake" on that you can penetrate the enemy's line.
This list was a DE list, because this army can develop this way of playing very, very well: (in Spain, we play at 1500 ptos, even in the biggest tournaments all around the country) , this is an example of "DE difuso" list (I don't know If you play this way in your own countries, and because of that I'll explain a bit; I you don't play this way, tell me and I try to open a post about it):
5x 5 DR: repeater crossbows
2 chariots
5 shades
2 sorceres (with her own magic equipment)
1 noble
Loyal Hidra or RBT
This kind of army refuses the combat, and the MSU is based in CC to win battles. How will you stop those kind of armies?

See you.

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Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:43 pm
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Black Guard
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Hi Prava!

This kind of army is nasty, really elvish, but can be stopped by heavy magic and shoting. You kill 2 DR, and he must take a panic test. LD of 8 or 9 can is not bad, but in time he will fail.
Another option is to kill hi characters (you did not write where theye are). I hope it helped you. But your post (and mine) belongs to the tactical forum, not to this subject. So my apologies to DA.

DA: what type of new version of MSU/MSE can you offer us as COP is presented?

Anyone: How SOC changes MSU?

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Sat Apr 17, 2004 5:05 am
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Trainee Warrior
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i believe that a mix between msu and mse is really the way to go. Since the cheaper troops, even though highly skilled corsais fair very well, actually proving to be one of the best units for me. I tend to bring along some witchelves and exes with that. giving you a wide variation of troops. very flexiable for different battle plans.


Sat May 08, 2004 6:52 pm
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