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Opportunistic Tactics - or 'Where did THAT come from?' 
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The Ancient One
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Robertokious wrote:
Yeah, but do you not ahve to declare ALL charges before the opp declares his charge reaction?

I have to say that I thought this was the case too.

OK when we play many players react to each charge declaration as it is made, but the rules (iirc) state that you declare all charges then they declare charge reactions. This would mitigate against this "tactic".

Maybe someone with a rulebook to hand can clarify this.

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Sha'a'alaar


Mon Nov 29, 2004 8:48 am
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AFAIK,

you declare all charges,

then he/ she declares all reactions,
(SnS is not possible in this if 1 unit has less than normal move needed for charge)

then you execute results of charges in delaration order.
(this is the part of lining up beastherds for a flank).

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Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:04 am
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Had this one used against me at a tournament.

The Torpedo: Take a unit five dark riders with no command. Put a Noble in the unit with full armor and a good weapon (Blade of Ruin or Crimson Death are good choices). Place the unit in a column formation one figure wide, with the Noble in the lead, and charge into flanks as soon as possible. The only model in combat is the Noble, so all attacks must be directed at him, while the unit is greater than US5 so it negates ranks.

Quite frankly, I consider this tactic to be on par with clipping. The army that did this to me didn't get it to work, because he was using huntsmen in a Cult of Ulrik army, and the huntsman is worthless as a character. A Black Guardsman did him in with no trouble at all.

Blackfel

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Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:43 am
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Yes you declare reactions all at once. The thing is, you must declare reactions in the order that charges were declared, and as you can't declare multiple reactions to one charge you can't stand and shoot with a unit if the first charge is in half range.

Blackfel: I like that. A noble on a DS with a Lance and E. sh would do very nicely. Thats one scary flank. Would it work with a banner in the unit. I recon it would as they are in snake. Ouch, thats scary. I shall use that.

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Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:07 am
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Malekith's Personal Guard
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Ras the banner only counts if its in the front rank of the unit as the front rank consists of only a noble then no you can't have the +1CR nor can you count your musician should you have one in the case of a draw. A snake still has a front, rear and flank - just a bit of a wigly one.

If you work the odds out its a risky tactic to use often

You will probably be out numbered and your opponent will still have a banner. A noble with luck will kill 2 enemy models result a draw and you loose because he has a musician.

This is only viable vs small units and or enemy cavalry and is thus rightly a tactic of opportunity and a rare one at that.

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Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:07 pm
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It isn't that you can't use the banner, you can't use the noble! If you have any command they must be in the front rank, meaning the noble wouldn't be in BtB. Of course you could charge in two wide to get the banner, but then he will get more attacks back, and against a much softer target.

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You will probably be out numbered and your opponent will still have a banner. A noble with luck will kill 2 enemy models result a draw and you loose because he has a musician.


Remember you also have a +1 for outnumber, so the prospects aren't quite so grim.

I think this tactic would best be employed against some real tough hard hitting units, like large units of Khorne marked Minotaurs, which can do more wounds back than a unit can generate CR. Only one would be able to hit back, and the noble's armor and possibly ward would prevent return wounds. Even if you lose, you are still testing on a 7 or 8, and your odds in the next round are no worse.

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Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:27 pm
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The Ancient One
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Whilst I understand, and agree with, where DA was coming from when this thread started, I feel it has every possibility of turning into "Cheesy Tactics R Us". We don't want D.net to get the wrong sort of reputation (like a website for script-kiddies).

Many of the ideas here are interesting but I definitely wouldn't play them in a friendly game. Actually, I doubt if I'd use some of them in a competition game either. Somethings just ain't worth doing, winning isn't the be all and end all.

A discussion about tactics is part of the learning experience. But this is more like a cookbook and some players are going to take these tactics, without any thought or great understanding, and use them in general play.

That's just my feeling on the subject.

Cheers

Sha'a'alaar


Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:43 pm
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Order of charge and screening: This works especiallly nice with cavalry but can also be done with infantry. Put a dark rider unit on front followed by a cok unit. Position the cok unit in such a way that one model can look past the dark riders. Move units forward to within charge range, make sure you have multiple targets within range. Declare charges and let the dark riders charge to a flank (warmachine would be best) and the cok's forward or viceversa. Most opponents don't see it coming and wonder if your able to do it!

Robin

PS Don't do this if your opponent has cannons but against empire it's a great way to get ird of detachments.

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Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:15 pm
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Take a unit of 5 COK, give them full command and the warbanner, now take a highborn on a cold one, with HA, SDC, HSoD and a GW. Put the highborn on the flank and offer this flank to an enemy lord on a monster. He will probably fall over himself to charge the flank of your general's unit.

Before combat you'll be winning by 2 (outnumbering and warbanner against flank). Your opponent will be lucky to inflict serious damage on your highborn and he can then smack the enemy lord or monster (whichever is easier to hurt) in the face. The enemy will lose combat and if they don't run you can smack supporting units in to pile on the static CR.

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Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:20 pm
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OK, topic got's my mind rolling. So here's another one, a variation of other mentioned surpirse tactics.

Brave hero: Noble on dark steed in a unit of dark riders. Position them to charge a warmachine. Declare a charge with only the noble and position the dark riders to treathen the flank or rear of another unit.

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Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:26 pm
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I am with Sha on this one. I think the intention has gone. I belive the idea behind the thread was for DA to shuck out the advanced and abstract ideas that he and Kkel have been discussing. Now we seem to have come to unit configs.

I recormend that we all cut down our additions leaving DA to finish what was his article, else we run the risk of accumilating so many non relvent ideas. Perhaps wait untill DA has finished his article and then we should contribute our stuff.

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Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:54 pm
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Dark Rider Trap Park the DR 1" in front of a fast enemy unit (ie knights) so that your chances of rolling any reasonable flee distance on a 3d6 is miserable. Enemy charges you (or once again he has to reform to try and get by which takes way too long), your DR cannot roll far enough to get away. He HAS to now move his FULL charge distance usually placing his unit in a forest (which will take forever to get out of) or into a flanking charge of your own, on your side of the board.

I've used this to great effect against brettonian armies with one modification:

Instead of forest, read: Within 10" of my 15 executioners and noble and in the front arc.

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Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:28 pm
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Where did that spawn go?This works with Cult of Slaanesh and Chaos. You try to move your spawn between an enemy unit and your own unit. Your opponent can't charge the unit behind the spawn, because the spawn is in the way. Now, on your own turn, you declare a charge with the unit behind the spawn, then move the spawn away during compulsory movement. This is quite an effective method to take on faster units than yours. You only have to be sure that they can't overrun the spawn, they have to fear it.

This basically works just like a screen, but the spawn has the advantage that it doesn't have charge to get out of the first charge's way.


Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:30 pm
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Expendable screen:

in the case of charging into dangerous warmachines/ big units of shooters (hellblaster), position harpies in front of DR.

on his turn, shooting will problably decimate the harpies to a fleeing bunch, with to few US to panic the behind it positioned chargers, or shooting will horibly fail and the harpies can charge. Advantage of this above a screen of warriors is the chargethreat the harpies offer instead of slowmoving warriors.

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Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:45 pm
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Very nice topic. I think I agree with Robert that all charges must be declared and all fear/terror tests passed before any reactions are made.

Back on topic. . .

Unconventional Bait: People seem to think our chariots are *must-kills* beyond their normal threat value. Using these things as bait and redirectors almost always works b/c people don't see them as expendable (ie, they usually take the bait). It doesn't come up often, of course, due to the M7, but the US4 means the break/destruction of the chariot DOES NOT CAUSE PANIC TESTS. Another example is a mid-sized unit of executioners (12-15). I've pulled many an uber-unit into bad positions by presenting my execs (who carry no banner) to them in inticing ways. Even if I have no viable counter-charge, taking an uber unit out of the game for a few turns is worth it. Finally, there is using a single RBT as a magnet for the fast elements of the enemy force. It is one way to pin down those pesky Pegasus knights, and it brings those miners and tomb scorpions out away from your main battle line if you deploy correctly.

Gunline reversal: This is a new tactic my Legion picked up after including 10 RXBs. You march up first turn with RXBs in 10x1 formation. Behind them is an infantry tag-team of spears + executioners. On the flank is the ubiquitous rider unit and a random noble. Anyway, shooting 20 shots per turn tends to annoy the enemy, so they are more likely to charge these guys. Flee with RXBs (either making sure the others are out of range or that you have a chariot or knight unit in reserve), and they are now exposed to a counter by the tag-team (and whatever else is there). The sneakiness of the tactic is that ppl are more likely to take the 'bait' when it's a shooty unit than an obvious sacrificial unit.

Herding: This is more of a psyOps thing, but it definitely counts as unconventional. Using harpies, shades, flyers, or riders, you can threaten lone mages to abandon their positions and seek shelter in terrain and/or units. While this is of limited use against heavens mages, it is nice for mages with definite range or LOS issues.

Beastmaster screen: Mount your BM on a pegasus and recruit a flock of harpies to accompany him. You always place the harpies 4.5" ahead of the BM as they advance on warmachines/shooters. The BM cannot be targeted as he's not a large target, and the destruction of the harpies does not cause panic in the BM due to distance. In this way, you either keep the harpies (who fly in and take out the warmachine) or you lose the harpies (so your BM can charge what was previously blocked by the harpies). Note that this doesn't work against armies with sooo much shooting that they can just shoot the harpies and then start shooting the BM that same turn.

Charger Surprise: Not really a tactic. .. this is more of a rule that many ppl don't seem to know. We all know that you are allowed one wheel (or pivot if you are a single model) when you charge. What many do not know is that this wheel/pivot does NOT have to be the first thing you do. This allows you to charge around terrain and units that would otherwise cause your charge to fail. You move up to the terrain, pivot/wheel, and then complete your charge. Hydras and chariots CAN careen around trees to hit their prey!

May peace be with you,
Ash

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Mon Nov 29, 2004 3:31 pm
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sha'a'alaar wrote:
Whilst I understand, and agree with, where DA was coming from when this thread started, I feel it has every possibility of turning into "Cheesy Tactics R Us". We don't want D.net to get the wrong sort of reputation (like a website for script-kiddies).

Many of the ideas here are interesting but I definitely wouldn't play them in a friendly game. Actually, I doubt if I'd use some of them in a competition game either. Somethings just ain't worth doing, winning isn't the be all and end all.

A discussion about tactics is part of the learning experience. But this is more like a cookbook and some players are going to take these tactics, without any thought or great understanding, and use them in general play.

That's just my feeling on the subject.

Cheers

Sha'a'alaar
I disagree. Some tactics I would never use because they are cheesy and not really in the spirit of the game, just taking advantage of rules, but some other tactics mentioned here are sound and deserve to be listed. While many of us old timers know them already, it sure as heck helps a new player to have a list of things to flip out of the bag.

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Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:31 pm
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Ash010110 wrote:
Very nice topic. I think I agree with Robert that all charges must be declared and all fear/terror tests passed before any reactions are made.

Back on topic. . .


I agree as well. Sorry Kel.
Quote:

Gunline reversal: This is a new tactic my Legion picked up after including 10 RXBs. You march up first turn with RXBs in 10x1 formation. Behind them is an infantry tag-team of spears + executioners. On the flank is the ubiquitous rider unit and a random noble. Anyway, shooting 20 shots per turn tends to annoy the enemy, so they are more likely to charge these guys. Flee with RXBs (either making sure the others are out of range or that you have a chariot or knight unit in reserve), and they are now exposed to a counter by the tag-team (and whatever else is there). The sneakiness of the tactic is that ppl are more likely to take the 'bait' when it's a shooty unit than an obvious sacrificial unit.

Yep, smart players will know what you're up to right away, and will if not this game, next game, have something like fast cav or fliers to charge it which can easily get away from you in return. Or they will try and charge your screen on the flank. Therefore it is important to have the screen rotated slightly such that it cannot be flanked and can redirect him into your tougher units. However that shooting unit is as annoying as heck and I guarantee it will attract his attention.

Another thing worth mentioning is this can be used against Bret flying circus knights. Allow them to flank your bait but make sure that the only flank offered means that the knights will have to overrun in a straight line. Likely even on 3 dice he's going to roll a 9-10 inches overrun/pursue. If you have your units lined up properly you can then counter charge him on the next turn as he cannot get away. Harpies make excellent cochargers on Bret pegs as they can pursue more than he can roll to get away most of the time so he'll have to stand and take it like a man when your infantry nails him as well. This takes a bit of thinking to set up but it can be done effectively, or used as a shield to keep the knights flying around not doing much.

Picture:

XXXXXXXXXXXKKK

UUU..HHH Where X = rxb, K = peg knight, U = your ranked unit, H = harpies.

As an aside, this is something Empire armies are perfectly suited for since detachments don't cause panic. I commonly make a small detachment of handgunners or archers (depending if I want to move and shoot etc.) and place them right in front of the parent unit. I never see anyone doing it and I'm beinning to think its just me. Small units of 5-8 handgunners are as annoying as hell and hardly take up any space but beg the enemy to walk into the trap...

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Beastmaster screen: Mount your BM on a pegasus and recruit a flock of harpies to accompany him. You always place the harpies 4.5" ahead of the BM as they advance on warmachines/shooters. The BM cannot be targeted as he's not a large target, and the destruction of the harpies does not cause panic in the BM due to distance. In this way, you either keep the harpies (who fly in and take out the warmachine) or you lose the harpies (so your BM can charge what was previously blocked by the harpies). Note that this doesn't work against armies with sooo much shooting that they can just shoot the harpies and then start shooting the BM that same turn.


Yes this is good. Also what you want to do since sometimes he won't kill all your harpies (I've had that happen a lot actually) is make it so that if a harpy dies you remove a model such that now your guy can see. Then on your turn you have a an option to charge two things if the harpies make it. This can also be done with DR, and is how I take out organ guns and how I protect a large unit of COK against RG which can then charge the RG parent unit and wipe it out on my turn. (also once the parent unit is in combat the RG may be the only legitimate shooting target.)

Quote:

Charger Surprise: Not really a tactic. .. this is more of a rule that many ppl don't seem to know. We all know that you are allowed one wheel (or pivot if you are a single model) when you charge. What many do not know is that this wheel/pivot does NOT have to be the first thing you do. This allows you to charge around terrain and units that would otherwise cause your charge to fail. You move up to the terrain, pivot/wheel, and then complete your charge. Hydras and chariots CAN careen around trees to hit their prey!

May peace be with you,
Ash


Hydras can even careen around your own units since they can see over them!

Amazing how many people don't believe the last one. Even more amazing how many people don't think you have the option to wheel unless you HAVE to wheel. I get that argument from beastmen players quite a lot when my chariot wheels at the last minute to make those idiots line up for a flank charge from the second charging unit.

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Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:43 pm
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Well, apparently a level 1 mage can't ride a dark pegasus. looks like that idea got shafted pretty darn quick.

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Last edited by Cerulaetas on Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:10 am
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@Cerulaetas: 1 Flaw with that idea, a Level 1 Mage can't ride a Pegasus. It also seems a massive waste of a mage, when a Beastmaster can do that same job cheaper.

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Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:35 am
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Quote:
Charger Surprise: Not really a tactic. .. this is more of a rule that many ppl don't seem to know. We all know that you are allowed one wheel (or pivot if you are a single model) when you charge. What many do not know is that this wheel/pivot does NOT have to be the first thing you do. This allows you to charge around terrain and units that would otherwise cause your charge to fail. You move up to the terrain, pivot/wheel, and then complete your charge. Hydras and chariots CAN careen around trees to hit their prey!

ummmm, remember that trees block ALL line of sight. this is still a good tactic but remember you need to see the unit your charging before you move, ie you cant declare a charge on a unit across a wood and the wheel during your charge move so you can see it.

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Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:38 am
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Suicide Bomber

DA mentioned this way at the top of this thread, but I had a different idea. Everyone always uses the Web of Shadows for this, but it's only S3. So what to do against those pesky high T orc or bray shamans? Rubric of Dark Dimensions. The higher strength and the ability to hit multiple models also makes it a better option for killing war machine crews. I haven't actually used it but have been considering it for some time now.

Uber Character Can't hit me!

Ring of Darkness. This magic item is overlooked very often but is so useful. If you're opponent likes to bring special characters like Archaon or Tyrion, or they like to have souped up vampire or chaos lords on dragons, then this is the item for you my friend. A lone noble on DS or CO with full armor and the ring of darkness can tie up the enemy for rounds of combat at a time.

Place the noble in way as such to lure the uber character ever so slightly away from your combat lines. Needing 6's to hit will make it damn near impossible to kill your noble in one round of combat, and if you're lucky, you might get a wound back on his mount. A 150 point noble can hold up a 600 point lord for a turn or two and lure him away from the rest of your army. Not too bad, eh?

Hydra Bodyguard

What about adding a little more punch to you hydra and keeping your character on DS or DP safe for a turn or two? Why not add a mounted character to your hydra unit. In the shooting phase, the Hydra will take all the shots and the character will take none. Then you have two options with your character:

1) There to add more punch on the charge.

Punch doesn't just mean attacks. This could be a BSB w/ War banner for +2 CR. Or perhaps with the Banner of Murder to get a surprise charge on an unsuspecting unit. I mean, when was the last time you saw a hydra reap the benefits of the banner of murder? Or a standard bearer?

2) Protect the hunter.

The hydra could be used as excellent protection for a mage/machine hunter as they advance closer to the enemy.

So what do you think so far?

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Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:54 am
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Some fun tactics this far. Most of them I knew, a wery few of them I use regularely (no- not the worst ones) and some I`ve got to try, just for the hell of it (Banner-of-nag-unit, turning it`s back on a unit of Knights Errant; !lol! )

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Punch doesn't just mean attacks. This could be a BSB w/ War banner for +2 CR. Or perhaps with the Banner of Murder to get a surprise charge on an unsuspecting unit. I mean, when was the last time you saw a hydra reap the benefits of the banner of murder? Or a standard bearer?


I don`t think anyone exept a BM can join a hydra.

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Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:47 am
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Can a character besides a beastmaster join a Hydra? I'm not so sure if it can, don't have my book handy here though.

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Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:47 am
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Sorry Darkadon. That Hydra + BSB idea was just too good to be true. I checked my army book:

Pg. 13
"No other model may join a Hydra/Apprentice unit." This obviously is apart from a Beastmaster on foot.

TDP

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[/quote] I agree as well. Sorry Kel.
[quote]

langmann, took me ages to find what you were refering too.

I didn't write that too clearly - I was generally refering to the likely outcomes of a snakey line charge with the possible front rank options - Noble or standard. Though as is righly pointed out if you have a command model it must obviously be at the front.

I had a look back through the tome that is my GT games folder and found I've only ever used a snake formation once in over 10 years and 150+ tournament games :!:

It would be nice to compile the actually do able bits of this into a single post.

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Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:17 am
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